Curse

upier · Jul 15, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

as for the bolded part: "comfort" and playability are not two in the same, especially when you cast diversion on the bosses best move in 1 sec, or wandering eye a mob to keep them from killing the sin when he's at 1/4 hp, something someone casting a 2 second wandering couldn't do.

as for the second part: playing BAD doesn't make it OK, no matter what the margin of error is, and the best example of that is the HA meta.

How many times do you use Diversion in PvE?
5 times?
Less?
Because the point of Diversion is kinda the foe being alive long enough to actually miss the skill.
I kill my foes.

Btw - the mob will still kill your assassin friend. WE interrupts the attack of the target only. Surely you meant Clumsiness?
And what are your monks doing?

And in PvE - if you are winning - you aren't playing bad. It just shows what low standards apply.

Seriously - what about FC makes it worth the investment in PvE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no its 1/2 of the cast time, same as a the 20% halves skill recharge mod aka useful and its what people use a lot.

Which means you are using 15 in FC.
Interesting choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

People do use GOOD weapons in pve, When they are starting out they get what they can but later they will learn what is good and get good weapons "guess your still new to the game"

yes it has to have room for error cause people like you play, but it does not mean people cant use good weapons. Yes you are punished cause you dont get the bonus from your weapons

You misunderstand the point of being punished.
Being punished means you lose. Or are at least hurt badly (not just HP-wise though).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Mesmer is not a DPS class, your using it wrong. Fast casting works good with mesmer same as ES, SR work good on ele and necro, if every class had SR or ES the game would suck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

[regarding PvE builds]
[build=OQNDAowjOFgcQPgIgG1AuAPA]

id start right away with that, its what i find most useful as a mesmer

Do YOU even PvE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

same thing for any prof prim att,

So you are comparing FC in PvE to SR? Leadership? Expertise?
Once again - do you even PvE?

Magikarp · Jul 15, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

How many times do you use Diversion in PvE?
5 times?
Less?
Because the point of Diversion is kinda the foe being alive long enough to actually miss the skill.
I kill my foes.

Btw - the mob will still kill your assassin friend. WE interrupts the attack of the target only. Surely you meant Clumsiness?
And what are your monks doing?

And in PvE - if you are winning - you aren't playing bad. It just shows what low standards apply.

Seriously - what about FC makes it worth the investment in PvE?

Which means you are using 15 in FC.
Interesting choice.

You misunderstand the point of being punished.
Being punished means you lose. Or are at least hurt badly (not just HP-wise though).

Do YOU even PvE?

So you are comparing FC in PvE to SR? Leadership? Expertise?
Once again - do you even PvE?

FC means mesmer, which in turns means access to runes and other mesmer based set-ups. if you don't understand that mesmers aren't a damage class by nature, then you're doing it all wrong, and you've proven that you can manage to do the absolute worst with your post.

Shaz · Jul 15, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Mesmer aren't a damage class by nature is true, but if you use some of the shutdown build in PvP for PvE then mesmers are pretty useless in that sense. For example, diversion is one of the best skill mesmer has, but more or less useless in PvE. Thing like CoP should be use instead of shutdown skills, damage and taking down thing quickly is win in PvE.

Compare to other thing FC is pretty useless in PvE. Just carry a 40/40 set and only put leftover point in FC imo, unless you use a FC skill.

upier · Jul 15, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

FC means mesmer, which in turns means access to runes and other mesmer based set-ups. if you don't understand that mesmers aren't a damage class by nature, then you're doing it all wrong, and you've proven that you can manage to do the absolute worst with your post.

Mesmer means FC. Not the other way around.

Damage kills foes.
In PvE - the foes are begging to be killed.
And if you aren't helping them achieve that - you're doing something wrong. Or better yet - since if you are winning - it's not exactly wrong.
It's like using an Illusion set on a Dom build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Mesmer aren't a damage class by nature is true, but if you use some of the shutdown build in PvP for PvE then mesmers are pretty useless in that sense. For example, diversion is one of the best skill mesmer has, but more or less useless in PvE. Thing like CoP should be use instead of shutdown skills, damage and taking down thing quickly is win in PvE.

Compare to other thing FC is pretty useless in PvE. Just carry a 40/40 set and only put leftover point in FC imo, unless you use a FC skill.

This.
I don't see anything that would negate this.

JDRyder · Jul 15, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

How many times do you use Diversion in PvE?
5 times?
Less?
Because the point of Diversion is kinda the foe being alive long enough to actually miss the skill.
I kill my foes.

Btw - the mob will still kill your assassin friend. WE interrupts the attack of the target only. Surely you meant Clumsiness?
And what are your monks doing?

And in PvE - if you are winning - you aren't playing bad. It just shows what low standards apply.

Seriously - what about FC makes it worth the investment in PvE?

Which means you are using 15 in FC.
Interesting choice.

You misunderstand the point of being punished.
Being punished means you lose. Or are at least hurt badly (not just HP-wise though).

Do YOU even PvE?

So you are comparing FC in PvE to SR? Leadership? Expertise?
Once again - do you even PvE?

I spam the crap out of diversion more than likely theres more than 1 target so no its not going to die before it goes off, also it seems that when a NPC has Diversion, it does not want to cast meaning it cuts it damage down by 100% not to say it will not cast but does seem to slow them down.

just cause your winning in pve does not mean your playing good.

you only need 7 or 8 to cut your cast times down by about 1/3 to 1/2

your being punished cause your lose a ability to be able to cast faster and for your spell to recharge to be ready to cast again

Most mods in GW use the same attributes type and using power block on them means they cant do any thing for 14 secs, Power Block is better in pve than in pvp due to as you have said many times "NPCS are dumb" they dont cancel cast they and are easy to read unlike a good pvp monk or caster. Cry of frustration owns in pve cause any time you go in to battle NPCs just about always start casting at the same time and you can interrupt every thing in the area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't see anything about FC that would scream "WOW! That IS sweet and that really made a difference!" for PvE - outside of "Great! Take that lag!"

Theres nothing about SR that makes me go wow in pve, same for ES, str, mysticism,exp,crit strike etc. They all help for the class they were made for but as you also have side many times "its PVE theres a ton of room for error" so why even have any of them? On a War most people only put 7-9 in str, does this make str bad cause its not worth maxing out like rangers do? No its just not needed and the points can be better used in other players.

You dont need ES on a war, Str on a ele, Exp on a mesmer or fast casting on a derv, all the prim atts work well with their classes.

If your going to say mesmer is bad and useless next to other classes, then go ahead and say everything but ele and monk is bad

rangers BHA does not matter to you cause the NPC is alrdy dead.
necros minions and hexes dont matter cause the NPC is already dead.
war, dervs and sins dont matter cause the target is alrdy dead.
etc

that seems to be the logic that you are using to say that mesmer is useless and has no place in pve. Just cause a class does not do or do as much damage as other classes does not mean its useless there's more to the game than just damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Mesmer means FC. Not the other way around.

the prim att does not make the class useless or useful

upier · Jul 15, 2008, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

On a War most people only put 7-9 in str, does this make str bad cause its not worth maxing out like rangers do?

If your going to say mesmer is bad and useless next to other classes, then go ahead and say everything but ele and monk is bad

Thanks - this was the info I wanted.

Magikarp · Jul 15, 2008, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Thanks - this was the info I wanted.

i think you talked yourself right in to a hole.

upier · Jul 15, 2008, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i think you talked yourself right in to a hole.

You mean what he said wasn't the biggest pile of poo you ever read?

Edit:
If I continue throwing around the term "shit" as much as I did in the last few days - it's going to get blocked.
Poo it is!

-Lotus- · Jul 15, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

I spam the crap out of diversion more than likely theres more than 1 target so no its not going to die before it goes off, also it seems that when a NPC has Diversion, it does not want to cast meaning it cuts it damage down by 100% not to say it will not cast but does seem to slow them down.

you kill foes one at a time?... why?

Quote:

just cause your winning in pve does not mean your playing good.

exactly

Quote:

Most mods in GW use the same attributes type and using power block on them means they cant do any thing for 14 secs, Power Block is better in pve than in pvp due to as you have said many times "NPCS are dumb" they dont cancel cast they and are easy to read unlike a good pvp monk or caster. Cry of frustration owns in pve cause any time you go in to battle NPCs just about always start casting at the same time and you can interrupt every thing in the area.

and how is fast casting helping you cast CoF? N/Me does it better...

Quote:

Theres nothing about SR that makes me go wow in pve, same for ES, str, mysticism,exp,crit strike etc. They all help for the class they were made for but as you also have side many times "its PVE theres a ton of room for error" so why even have any of them? On a War most people only put 7-9 in str, does this make str bad cause its not worth maxing out like rangers do? No its just not needed and the points can be better used in other players.

You done know how to play necro.... obviously. and everyone knows the the inherent effect of strength is useless. most people specc 12/12 now by the way, but its for lion's comfort, not because strength is good. if fast casting had good skills there would be a reason to have it to...

Quote:

You dont need ES on a war, Str on a ele, Exp on a mesmer or fast casting on a derv, all the prim atts work well with their classes.

and you dont need FC on a mesmer either, soul reaping is more useful actually...

Quote:

If your going to say mesmer is bad and useless next to other classes, then go ahead and say everything but ele and monk is bad

every other class in the game gains some sort of benefit from their primary class

Quote:

rangers BHA does not matter to you cause the NPC is alrdy dead.
necros minions and hexes dont matter cause the NPC is already dead.
war, dervs and sins dont matter cause the target is alrdy dead.
etc

that seems to be the logic that you are using to say that mesmer is useless and has no place in pve. Just cause a class does not do or do as much damage as other classes does not mean its useless there's more to the game than just damage.

those things all amke things die. frankly, mesmers dont. there isnt much more than damage in PvE.

Quote:

the prim att does not make the class useless or useful

the primary attribute, runes and armor level make a class useful or useless. secondary professions offer the same skills.

Shaz · Jul 15, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Most mods in GW use the same attributes type and using power block on them means they cant do any thing for 14 secs, Power Block is better in pve than in pvp due to as you have said many times "NPCS are dumb" they dont cancel cast they and are easy to read unlike a good pvp monk or caster. Cry of frustration owns in pve cause any time you go in to battle NPCs just about always start casting at the same time and you can interrupt every thing in the area.

Yes, shutting something down for 14 secs is good, but compare to pure damage it's meh in PvE. Yes, you can Diversion, etc. on AI easier than in PvP because AI are dumb and will cast through it, but it is more useful to just kill it and shutdown it whole skill bar.

Shutdown and degen/hexes pressure are more useful in PvP where targets are smarter and battle last a long time. For PvE, pure damage is the best because you can easily out damage them.

Quote:

If your going to say mesmer is bad and useless next to other classes, then go ahead and say everything but ele and monk is bad

rangers BHA does not matter to you cause the NPC is alrdy dead.
necros minions and hexes dont matter cause the NPC is already dead.
war, dervs and sins dont matter cause the target is alrdy dead.
etc

Mesmer aren't bad or useless, but if you're going to use it for mostly shutdown instead of damage than I'd probably pick something else over it.

And why anything but ele, what's so great about ele that you leave it out in that statement? But anyway, I'm not saying BHA is bad now, dazed can be good sometime, but most of the time I don't use it. Only time I've use dazed is for that Mind Burn Boss in HM in Factions. Minions are good because they provide energy, meat shield, and damage when blowing up. Hexes that do damage are good (SS, Inept, Clumsiness, etc.), also those that can shutdown AoE are good too compare to single target shutdown (for example, Reckless Haste > Price of Failure). War, dervs, and sins etc does matter because they are the reason target is dead.

Quote:

that seems to be the logic that you are using to say that mesmer is useless and has no place in pve. Just cause a class does not do or do as much damage as other classes does not mean its useless there's more to the game than just damage.

Mesmers are not useless and has no place in PvE, they do damage just fine, though buffing them a bit wouldn't hurt for PvE. For PvE, after your build has adequate defense you should concentrate the rest of the build on pure damage.

Quote:

the prim att does not make the class useless or useful

It does not make a class useless but some primary att does make a class more useful than other.

Lishy · Jul 15, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Fast Casting exists so you can Assassin's promise >> Ether Nightmare >>> Cry of Pain>> Clumsiness the whole mob in just a few seconds

I love fast casting because with the correct builds, the term "Mob spike" can be made

DarkSpirit · Jul 15, 2008, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Fast Casting is not the problem it is still an advantage to cast fast, if anything else.

The problem is whether you have the energy and a short enough recharge on your spells to support the fast cast.

For a shorter recharge, use Mantra of Recovery with your fast cast mesmer. Energy is an issue, that needs to be worked around somehow.

weretoad · Jul 15, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

fast casting is pve is just for lolz. note it please theres a period, and for anyone who doesn't understand the period contempt it means no more arguing. a few eles, 1-2 tanks 2 monk and some more dmg dealer or utility can handle pve. but it's lolz when you run yourself, gwen, and norgu and kill things hyper druggy fast.

Tyla · Jul 15, 2008, 11:55 PM // 23:55

As far as this goes:

It is an advantage to have Fast Casting. I always have it at atleast 8 in my Mesmer builds, PvE or PvP. You might as well just utilise it as casting faster is an effective... effect.

joshuarodger · Jul 16, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Fast Casting is not the problem it is still an advantage to cast fast, if anything else.

The problem is whether you have the energy and a short enough recharge on your spells to support the fast cast.

quoted for truth.

casting faster is always a plus but if all your skills are on recharge the fraction of a second reduction in casting isn't going to help you much.

JDRyder · Jul 16, 2008, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Yes, shutting something down for 14 secs is good, but compare to pure damage it's meh in PvE. Yes, you can Diversion, etc. on AI easier than in PvP because AI are dumb and will cast through it, but it is more useful to just kill it and shutdown it whole skill bar.

Shutdown and degen/hexes pressure are more useful in PvP where targets are smarter and battle last a long time. For PvE, pure damage is the best because you can easily out damage them.

Mesmer aren't bad or useless, but if you're going to use it for mostly shutdown instead of damage than I'd probably pick something else over it.

And why anything but ele, what's so great about ele that you leave it out in that statement? But anyway, I'm not saying BHA is bad now, dazed can be good sometime, but most of the time I don't use it. Only time I've use dazed is for that Mind Burn Boss in HM in Factions. Minions are good because they provide energy, meat shield, and damage when blowing up. Hexes that do damage are good (SS, Inept, Clumsiness, etc.), also those that can shutdown AoE are good too compare to single target shutdown (for example, Reckless Haste > Price of Failure). War, dervs, and sins etc does matter because they are the reason target is dead.

Mesmers are not useless and has no place in PvE, they do dFor Pvamage just fine, though buffing them a bit wouldn't hurt for PvE. For Pve, after your build has adequate defense you should concentrate the rest of the build on pure damage.

It does not make a class useless but some primary att does make a class more useful than other.

1st off let me say im a big fan of WM when they GvGed " COME BACK DAMN IT!" but Is Diversion always the most useful skill in pve? Some times its useless and sometimes its useful, Im sure every 1 remembers the monks from the last 3 missions of prohs, I like to have diversion on them for sure even if you have a ton of DPS they are going to take a min to kill due to their armor and regen they get just cause and diversion ownz their faces, i like to have it on lot of places in EoTN, and a few missions in factions and NF and in "elite" pve areas. Not saying its always useful but even in pve it can be.

As for "1 defense then pure dps" Im not a fan of this cause most the the damage will not even be used and i find 2 defense, 3 damage or 1 damage/support and 2 monks "never more than 2 i lolol at 3 monk backline in pve" better and just so theres no mix up on what damage/support is, things like splinter weapon, warmonger, hex eater strength of honor or even a old school zealots fire build, this can its more helpful imo and you dont have a bunch of unused damage, the battle may last a few secs longer but its also stronger and your able to agro more "and you monks dont fall asleep" so imo to much over kill on damage is bad and cutting back on it a little for a grater range of classes and rolls can be a lot more fun and just as fast

Theres always going to be a ton of ways to do things and there will never be a "best" way to do any thing cause there always something better if just may have not been found yet.

DarkSpirit · Jul 16, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by weretoad

fast casting is pve is just for lolz.

If fast casting is lol for pve then riddle me this, why do people bother to equip 40/40 sets then? Wouldn't it be better to replace the 40% HCT with health or something more useful?

Answer: Fast casting is still useful in pve.

hurdlebeast · Jul 16, 2008, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

No matter how you look at it one thing the Mesmer class does above all else is make you as a player a better player

Better or not better than any other class is not the question. It’s the process of taking what you are given and getting better at it to be an asset in the game.

QFT. I tried a mesmer way back when, couldn't do it. instead, went:

War (pretty easy management, even for a hammer combo war), Ele (little bit more management, but nothing too bad), Monk (gotta watch other people now, gets harder), and am starting a, you guessed it, fast casting mesmer soon enough.

Ran Fire mesmer with maxed fast cast and fire magic, little energy problems but i run straight up AoE spells, plus fire attunement for a little energy management.

Stormlord Alex · Jul 16, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If fast casting is lol for pve then riddle me this, why do people bother to equip 40/40 sets then? Wouldn't it be better to replace the 40% HCT with health or something more useful?

Answer: Fast casting is still useful in pve.

Fast casting is good, just not strong enough to make me want to waste my primary attribute on it.

zwei2stein · Jul 16, 2008, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If fast casting is lol for pve then riddle me this, why do people bother to equip 40/40 sets then? Wouldn't it be better to replace the 40% HCT with health or something more useful?

Answer: Fast casting is still useful in pve.

Are you so sure about that?

In Wands you can only replace it with 15^50, 5^50 or 10% HCT all... one eyed being king amongst blind.
In focuses you can only replace it with 30hp or 10% HCT all ... given that PvE people are inclined to replace usefull HP mods with anything that looks like it gives them moar power, i am not surprised.

And then, there is this issue that 20/20 looks pretty and perfect (i know other 20/20 that looks pretty and perfect), and that people have seems HCT and HSR packaged together so much that they kinda can't imagine replacing any of those 20s with different mod. Serioulsy, what was last time you looked at your 20/20 set and though about improving it?

Anyhow ... two 20 20 mods are equivalent of having 4-5 points in FC (averaged over long use), one 20 mod is equivalent to 2-3 points in FC. Technically you pay 30hp or 5 energy max for those 2-3 points in FC. Is that worth it?