Curse

Magikarp · Jul 14, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Casting spells faster doesn't have a downside.
Sadly - it also doesn't have that much of an upside either. Outside of it being fun of course.

and you figure this how? faster spells means less chance for interruption, faster damage on the field, faster reaction to the obvious, faster reaction to the not-so obvious, and more importantly, faster everything.

a lot of the time, gws (especially now) is a game of prediction and speed, along with the accuracy of interpreting situations, which imo, no class other than the ranger, can come close to handling with the precision and utility of denial, interruption, and countering that the mesmer can fulfill.

JDRyder · Jul 14, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Casting spells faster doesn't have a downside.
Sadly - it also doesn't have that much of an upside either. Outside of it being fun of course.

you mean like [glyph of sacrifice][meteor shower] does not have a upside?

or 1 of my favs [glyph of essence][diversion] =^.^= lawlz

Tyla · Jul 14, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

^
And 40/40 sets in general.

Casting faster makes you chuck out more spells faster. That is good.

Painbringer · Jul 14, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Just adding a 2 button programmable mouse has increased my fast casting on all my characters

upier · Jul 14, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

and you figure this how? faster spells means less chance for interruption, faster damage on the field, faster reaction to the obvious, faster reaction to the not-so obvious, and more importantly, faster everything.

a lot of the time, gws (especially now) is a game of prediction and speed, along with the accuracy of interpreting situations, which imo, no class other than the ranger, can come close to handling with the precision and utility of denial, interruption, and countering that the mesmer can fulfill.

In PvE?
That's the issue.
If there are interrupts flying around - you're gonna get interrupted. The AI is just too good at this.
Since the mesmer isn't your obvious choice for a damage class - you're not going to be the only one that will kill a foe - so the fact that your damage landed 0,5 sec faster - won't matter much.
Faster reactions - what do you need reacting to these days? PvE is one damage-fest - so the whole "must wait for the right moment to use my godly skill" just means you are waiting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

you mean like [glyph of sacrifice][meteor shower] does not have a upside?

OR (if you really want to use MS) you cast it before you even engage into battle.
The foes won't even notice you're there casting.

FC is a fun gimmick.

JDRyder · Jul 14, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

no your a nub

if your going to say being able to HCT on all your skills is bad i dont see how you can use HCT on any of your weapons as well

GS,MS is gud in pve cause you cant always use it on the target you want "the 1 in the middle" and who wants to w8 6 secs when you can just cast it in 2 and be able to cast it in battle as well.

The all DPS tactic sucks any way and mesmers will always be best for support. To much damage can be a wast.

upier · Jul 14, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no your a nub

I have to say that was officially the best reply of the day.
(Maybe incorporating a "ya mamma" in it would make it even better - but it's already close to being godly!)

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

if your going to say being able to HCT on all your skills is bad i dont see how you can use HCT on any of your weapons as well

My PvE set:

I exchange the shield depending on which colour looks best with the armor I am wearing. ^.^
AP fixes the recharge issue - and that's all that matters in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

GS,MS is gud in pve cause you cant always use it on the target you want "the 1 in the middle" and who wants to w8 6 secs when you can just cast it in 2 and be able to cast it in battle as well.

I don't remember when was the last time I used an ele in PvE. Well outside of the earth hench. When I KD - I use YMLD and Assassin Support.
And if I want damage - I'll look to other sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

The all DPS tactic sucks any way and mesmers will always be best for support. To much damage can be a wast.

What kind of support do you need in PvE?
Monks have sweet hex removal - necros have insane ench removal.
Heck - if Sabway has shown us anything is that hex removal isn't REALLY needed in PvE. If you REALLY need some specific mesmer support - you can go /Me on some of your other guys.

Ohh and all out DPS works insanely well versus stupid foes in PvE.
The best way to shutdown a foe is to kill it. And because that's so easy in PvE - why would you bother with anything else?

JDRyder · Jul 14, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I have to say that was officially the best reply of the day.
(Maybe incorporating a "ya mamma" in it would make it even better - but it's already close to being godly!)

Edit:

My PvE set:

I exchange the shield depending on which colour looks best with the armor I am wearing. ^.^
AP fixes the recharge issue - and that's all that matters in PvE.

I don't remember when was the last time I used an ele in PvE. Well outside of the earth hench. When I KD - I use YMLD and Assassin Support.
And if I want damage - I'll look to other sources.

What kind of support do you need in PvE?
Monks have sweet hex removal - necros have insane ench removal.
Heck - if Sabway has shown us anything is that hex removal isn't REALLY needed in PvE. If you REALLY need some specific mesmer support - you can go /Me on some of your other guys.

Ohh and all out DPS works insanely well versus stupid foes in PvE.
The best way to shutdown a foe is to kill it. And because that's so easy in PvE - why would you bother with anything else?

who cares what looks better

40/40 sets are gud

mesmers have all the the other profs have in 1

and you dont need 3000 damage to kill something with 500hp

Theosephus · Jul 14, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

First off.. I think Mesmer is one of the worst primaries (and the best secondary) for PvE mainly due to the weak benefit Fast Casting affords PvE play. But FC is not a gimmick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

FC is a fun gimmick.

Maybe it's your choice of words that I have a problem with. No solid reasoning behind it other than to say that there are simpler and more effective ways to kill mobs. That's not news.

Quote:

Since the mesmer isn't your obvious choice for a damage class - you're not going to be the only one that will kill a foe - so the fact that your damage landed 0,5 sec faster - won't matter much.

- It's not just about damage. Many non-damaging spells benefit greatly from fast casting and help reduce the margin of error caused by less-than-perfect reaction times. Interrupts, hexes, and so on. Casting time is a significant element in PvE, albeit not as important a factor as in PvP. It's significance is enough to make FC a benefit in many ways, just not in all ways.

Quote:

Faster reactions - what do you need reacting to these days? PvE is one damage-fest - so the whole "must wait for the right moment to use my godly skill" just means you are waiting.

- The faster I can finish casting a spell, the faster i can cast the next spell. I don't see what we're missing here. Yes it's not PvP but damage dealt to mobs and by mobs can be reduced significantly by an effective Fast Caster.

FC benefits in a way that isn't seen just by watching the numbers float up the screen. This has been a big problem FC & other Mesmers have had in PvE in that their benefits as a primary class are not recognized because they are not immediately obvious. Those who see a more blatantly simple way of defeating mobs prefer to wash over the benefits in favor of dismissing the primary class as redundant.

Quote:

If there are interrupts flying around - you're gonna get interrupted. The AI is just too good at this.

- So consider a player who is very good at interrupting and has a high Fast Casting attribute. This would make him just as much a danger to the mobs as the interrupting mobs would be to him.. perhaps more so.

I'd love to see what happened if we got rid of fast casting in PvE for a little while. The Fast Casting Primary has always been one of the least significant of all the classes and has the least obvious benefit in PvE. But it's not a gimmick at all. I'm pretty confident the data from an FC experiment will support that.

The best way this argument can be solved is through the comparison of hard data. Upier, maybe you spent too much time matching your shield with your armor and not enough time turning your opinion from a snap judgement to a fully rounded perspective.

And now it's your turn to speak.

DarkSpirit · Jul 14, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Heck - if Sabway has shown us anything is that hex removal isn't REALLY needed in PvE.

Sabway is only a generic build, and I am quite sure Sab expects the build to be tweaked according to the area. Otherwise, try bringing vanilla Sabway (with no hex removal) into FoW with your warrior.

upier · Jul 14, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

who cares what looks better

It's PvE.
Function after beauty works here.
Or do people seriously run around with multiple 40/40 sets + defense set + high energy set in PvE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

40/40 sets are gud

If you are running AP - the 36% recharge is a bit of a waste.
And since you are running PvE skills - the 36% faster cast will be a waste again.
Other then that - they are. (But I prefer to have more slots in my bag to pick up crap.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

mesmers have all the the other profs have in 1

So you are saying you won't be running monks?
Nor necros?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

and you dont need 3000 damage to kill something with 500hp

Exactly.
So who cares if you can dump an insane number of spells fast.
Things will die after you and the rest of the team gets a skill or two out there.
What you want is being able to spam thing - and the recharge plays a role here rather then how fast you are able to cast. And MoR (and with it FC) could be a contender here - but it's outclassed by AP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosephus

- It's not just about damage. Many non-damaging spells benefit greatly from fast casting and help reduce the margin of error caused by less-than-perfect reaction times. Interrupts, hexes, and so on. Casting time is a significant element in PvE, albeit not as important a factor as in PvP. It's significance is enough to make FC a benefit in many ways, just not in all ways.

Interrupts are 0.25s.
They benefit the least from FC.
What hexes are we talking about?
Backfire? Empathy? Clumsiness? Wandering Eye?
I'd rather smash foes then let them kill themselves (especially since that will be done faster). Mesmers lack good hexes in PvE. I mean - people are running stuff like [mind wrack] to trigger CoP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosephus

- The faster I can finish casting a spell, the faster i can cast the next spell. I don't see what we're missing here. Yes it's not PvP but damage dealt to mobs and by mobs can be reduced significantly by an effective Fast Caster.

So you're spamming.
I'd rather have unlimited energy from SR then be able to cast a bit faster in that case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosephus

FC benefits in a way that isn't seen just by watching the numbers float up the screen. This has been a big problem FC & other Mesmers have had in PvE in that their benefits as a primary class are not recognized because they are not immediately obvious. Those who see a more blatantly simple way of defeating mobs prefer to wash over the benefits in favor of dismissing the primary class as redundant.

Consider one of the sweetest PvE options:
YMLD and FM are shouts.
CoP is a 0.25s cast.
Effect of FC: non-existent or minimal.
Also consider that the necros also have 2 sec casts (heck even eles on a good day!) and they manage just fine which makes FC nice, but not exactly something to write home about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosephus

- So consider a player who is very good at interrupting and has a high Fast Casting attribute. This would make him just as much a danger to the mobs as the interrupting mobs would be to him.. perhaps more so.

Active interrupts pretty much died when A.Net came up with the brilliant idea of doubling the activation speed of skills in PvE.
Especially since you can just kill something - or PS the damage taken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosephus

I'd love to see what happened if we got rid of fast casting in PvE for a little while. The Fast Casting Primary has always been one of the least significant of all the classes and has the least obvious benefit in PvE. But it's not a gimmick at all. I'm pretty confident the data from an FC experiment will support that.

More attribute points to spend!
Yay!

The fact that the mesmer can cast faster doesn't make him more appealing in PvE. It's fun to play (and used to negate lag) - but outside of that ... seriously, no.
There is no precision play in PvE - and that's the whole point of FC.

Edit:
Didn't see DS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Sabway is only a generic build, and I am quite sure Sab expects the build to be tweaked according to the area. Otherwise, try bringing vanilla Sabway (with no hex removal) into FoW with your warrior.

Of course!
It's the pure basics - which can then be changed.
But - if we consider that hex removal isn't part of the PvE basics - why would you then want to run a mesmer WITH hex removal all the time (since that IS one of the best (if not THE best) mesmer support option for PvE!)? If hex removal is needed - you can throw remove hex on the mm hero. (Besides - if you are running an 8-man party - the monk should some hex removal already.)

JDRyder · Jul 14, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

your still lacking points in any of that

Painbringer · Jul 14, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

No matter how you look at it one thing the Mesmer class does above all else is make you as a player a better player

Better or not better than any other class is not the question. It’s the process of taking what you are given and getting better at it to be an asset in the game.

Magikarp · Jul 14, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Upier, you have yet to explain what makes casting any spell 2-3 times faster than all the other classes undeniably worse than the other primaries in the game. all you've simply done was throw your opinions about SR, EXP, and various AI comments about interrupts, which are all general well-known subjects in the mix.

if you can prove where a near instant wandering eye/clums, or MS, or ward, or all of the above isn't useful, especially in HM, then i'll agree, but i've been there, done that, and (if we're still passing opinions about) love the class AND its awesome primary.

horseradish · Jul 15, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

It's PvE.
Function after beauty works here.
Or do people seriously run around with multiple 40/40 sets + defense set + high energy set in PvE?

1234567890

Magikarp · Jul 15, 2008, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

1234567890

dont be sad, all of us good players do.

maxxfury · Jul 15, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

It's PvE.
Function after beauty works here.
Or do people seriously run around with multiple 40/40 sets + defense set + high energy set in PvE?

Ermm thats burns deep man! well not quite

i have my shield set, my 40/40's and my high set. But they all look good and match my gear

If i dont look good i dont leave the GH.

(usually dump half of it in storage tho to save slots for junk :P [eg illu stuff in stores when im on a dom bar])

---

Fc is good to get rid of that FUGLY casting time bar

No bar = happy Jay!
And happily covers my net lag

bringing my skill usage reaction time back the the levels of no lag

For me Fc is the great equalizer! for my net :P

---
Jayson

upier · Jul 15, 2008, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Upier, you have yet to explain what makes casting any spell 2-3 times faster than all the other classes undeniably worse than the other primaries in the game. all you've simply done was throw your opinions about SR, EXP, and various AI comments about interrupts, which are all general well-known subjects in the mix.

if you can prove where a near instant wandering eye/clums, or MS, or ward, or all of the above isn't useful, especially in HM, then i'll agree, but i've been there, done that, and (if we're still passing opinions about) love the class AND its awesome primary.

First of all - it's not near instant - it's just a bit faster.
And second of all - that doesn't make the slightest difference. Try running without FC a bit. Sure it won't be as nice (in terms of comfort) - but you lose absolutely nothing (that has an influence on the game) by doing so.

(It's the age old mesmer problem) It's not bad per se - it's just that there are better options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

dont be sad, all of us good players do.

See if you understood PvE - you'd not only know that what I said was a sign of bad play BUT you'd also know that although it's bad - it's absolutely correct.
PvE leaves an insane amount of room for error.
And it's because of that fact that I am not punished for running an illusion set when running domination because it looks better - NOR am I punished for lacking the fine tuning that FC brings.

The problem with the FC love is that although the results it brings are sweet - but they don't make the slightest difference.
It doesn't prevent interrupts, it's the skills themselves that prevent insane damage being dished out by casting faster, reacting to something is either near impossible because of the nice ideas A.Net had - or useless because you can just kill a foe.

I don't see anything about FC that would scream "WOW! That IS sweet and that really made a difference!" for PvE - outside of "Great! Take that lag!"

Magikarp · Jul 15, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

First of all - it's not near instant - it's just a bit faster.
And second of all - that doesn't make the slightest difference. Try running without FC a bit. Sure it won't be as nice (in terms of comfort) - but you lose absolutely nothing (that has an influence on the game) by doing so.

(It's the age old mesmer problem) It's not bad per se - it's just that there are better options.

See if you understood PvE - you'd not only know that what I said was a sign of bad play BUT you'd also know that although it's bad - it's absolutely correct.
PvE leaves an insane amount of room for error.
And it's because of that fact that I am not punished for running an illusion set when running domination because it looks better - NOR am I punished for lacking the fine tuning that FC brings.

The problem with the FC love is that although the results it brings are sweet - but they don't make the slightest difference.
It doesn't prevent interrupts, it's the skills themselves that prevent insane damage being dished out by casting faster, reacting to something is either near impossible because of the nice ideas A.Net had - or useless because you can just kill a foe.

I don't see anything about FC that would scream "WOW! That IS sweet and that really made a difference!" for PvE - outside of "Great! Take that lag!"

as for the bolded part: "comfort" and playability are not two in the same, especially when you cast diversion on the bosses best move in 1 sec, or wandering eye a mob to keep them from killing the sin when he's at 1/4 hp, something someone casting a 2 second wandering couldn't do.

as for the second part: playing BAD doesn't make it OK, no matter what the margin of error is, and the best example of that is the HA meta.

JDRyder · Jul 15, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

First of all - it's not near instant - it's just a bit faster.
And second of all - that doesn't make the slightest difference. Try running without FC a bit. Sure it won't be as nice (in terms of comfort) - but you lose absolutely nothing (that has an influence on the game) by doing so.

(It's the age old mesmer problem) It's not bad per se - it's just that there are better options.

no its 1/2 of the cast time, same as a the 20% halves skill recharge mod aka useful and its what people use a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

See if you understood PvE - you'd not only know that what I said was a sign of bad play BUT you'd also know that although it's bad - it's absolutely correct.

People do use GOOD weapons in pve, When they are starting out they get what they can but later they will learn what is good and get good weapons "guess your still new to the game"

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

PvE leaves an insane amount of room for error.
And it's because of that fact that I am not punished for running an illusion set when running domination because it looks better - NOR am I punished for lacking the fine tuning that FC brings.

yes it has to have room for error cause people like you play, but it does not mean people cant use good weapons. Yes you are punished cause you dont get the bonus from your weapons

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem with the FC love is that although the results it brings are sweet - but they don't make the slightest difference.
It doesn't prevent interrupts, it's the skills themselves that prevent insane damage being dished out by casting faster, reacting to something is either near impossible because of the nice ideas A.Net had - or useless because you can just kill a foe.

Mesmer is not a DPS class, your using it wrong. Fast casting works good with mesmer same as ES, SR work good on ele and necro, if every class had SR or ES the game would suck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't see anything about FC that would scream "WOW! That IS sweet and that really made a difference!" for PvE - outside of "Great! Take that lag!"

same thing for any prof prim att,