Curse

upier · Aug 11, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

mesmers only get better in groups

How?
I am seriously asking since no (viable) build where the 2+ mesmers would be more then just a sum of their parts comes to mind (outside of the obvious 1 mesmer hex with two guys with CoP of course!).
Of better yet - the mesmers should function the same way that a bunch of physicals topped with either a Splinter or a Cursing/Orders supporter do (heck - even a group of SF eles comes to mind before anything mesmery).

Snow Bunny · Aug 11, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Cry of Pain and massed mesmers with it are RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing amazing and anyone who says otherwise can eat shit pancakes.

It's enormous armor-ignoring damage. There's a great reason it works so well in the Deep.

Cryway is powerfullllll in HM, especially in comparison to something like SF eles.

Magikarp · Aug 11, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

How?
I am seriously asking since no (viable) build where the 2+ mesmers would be more then just a sum of their parts comes to mind (outside of the obvious 1 mesmer hex with two guys with CoP of course!).
Of better yet - the mesmers should function the same way that a bunch of physicals topped with either a Splinter or a Cursing/Orders supporter do (heck - even a group of SF eles comes to mind before anything mesmery).

if you cant understand how massive aoe damage, physical and magical shutdown+damage while doing so, and interrupts arent good, you dont deserve my explaining it to you. you called yourself a mesmer fan at one point, yet you act like you have no idea why me and others claim their success in pve. one mesmer alone can make HM significantly easier for everyone, add 2-3 more and there you go. toss in SY and other massive utilities from your other team mates, and you have a very powerful synergy.

not every build involves tank and spank with 14 necromancers and a bunch of splinter weapon spamming.

Xebedinct · Aug 11, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Cry of Pain and massed mesmers with it are RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing amazing and anyone who says otherwise can eat shit pancakes.

It's enormous armor-ignoring damage. There's a great reason it works so well in the Deep.

Cryway is powerfullllll in HM, especially in comparison to something like SF eles.

QFT

12chars

upier · Aug 12, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

if you cant understand how massive aoe damage, physical and magical shutdown+damage while doing so, and interrupts arent good, you dont deserve my explaining it to you. you called yourself a mesmer fan at one point, yet you act like you have no idea why me and others claim their success in pve. one mesmer alone can make HM significantly easier for everyone, add 2-3 more and there you go. toss in SY and other massive utilities from your other team mates, and you have a very powerful synergy.

not every build involves tank and spank with 14 necromancers and a bunch of splinter weapon spamming.

Sorry nothing about this says "more mesmers = better".
CoP spamming gets better with more people running it since it only needs one mesmer hex for everyone. Which as previously mentioned - can be run by anyone. (Unless of course it's AP spamming.)
Just as SF spamming gets better because one guy applies the burning and the rest already start doing damage on their first attack.
Where as the mesmer skills work a bit differently.
You have a lot of skills which work counter-productively - such as skills that prevent the activation completion and skills that cause damage on activation.
And THOSE skills actually present the major damaging mesmer weapons - unless we return to simple nukes where there is also no synergy.
Basically - the mesmers in your team don't represent a group that would be better then the sum of their parts.

Anything else you can offer me that ACTUALLY manages to show that mesmers work better when you add more of them? (Like I said - something in the like of the difference that a physical buffer makes to a physical team.)

DarkSpirit · Aug 12, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

...and anyone who says otherwise can eat shit pancakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You have a lot of skills which work counter-productively - such as skills that prevent the activation completion and skills that cause damage on activation.

Do you want to eat shit pancakes?

Like [[Spiteful Spirit] doesn't work well with [[Faintheartedness] or [[Shadow of Fear]? And yet we know that a team of necros can work well together.

Magikarp · Aug 12, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Do you want to eat shit pancakes?

Like [[Spiteful Spirit] doesn't work well with [[Faintheartedness] or [[Shadow of Fear]? And yet we know that a team of necros can work well together.

didnt you get the memo? only people that play necromancers can use team synergy. also, if you play mezmar, you're automatically bad at the game.

upier · Aug 12, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Do you want to eat shit pancakes?

Like [[Spiteful Spirit] doesn't work well with [[Faintheartedness] or [[Shadow of Fear]? And yet we know that a team of necros can work well together.

I am having difficulties understanding the parts you quoted.

Bunny's parts would read:
ZOMG! CoP is teh roxxor!
(Paraphrased to keep the dramatic effect of course.)

My quote would read:
Using spell interrupts on a foe hexed with Backfire is counter-productive.
(Or "Using WE/Clumsy on a foe hexed with Empathy is counter-productive" since it makes much more sense for PvE. Once again paraphrased of course.)

First of all:
I don't see the connection between the two posts (unless of course the connection is to hex a foe with something like Backfire and when that foe uses a spell use CoP on them).
Second of all:
By the tone of your post I imagine you disagree with my statement.
Third of all:
I don't see how your comparison makes sense in connection with my post since Faint/SoF doesn't prevent the actions - which would work counter-productively but rather just makes the attacks happen less frequently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

didnt you get the memo? only people that play necromancers can use team synergy. also, if you play mezmar, you're automatically bad at the game.

I am still waiting for your example of superb mesmer synergy that will go past the obvious "a team with 4 mesmers is better then a team with one mesmer because a team with 8 members is better then a team with 5".
Plus you obviously aren't getting the memos I am getting. Or sending for that matter.

Lishy · Aug 12, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

also, if you play mezmar, you're automatically bad at the game.

Clearly your the one bad at the game if you're posting here without reading all the overpowered builds of the mesmer

Also, like I mentioned before, for mesmer synergy you can have Extend Conditions to spread daze and blindness then a Tease interrupter to deny their actions, and then a Clumsiness damage dealers to blow them up

upier · Aug 12, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Also, like I mentioned before, for mesmer synergy you can have Extend Conditions to spread daze and blindness then a Tease interrupter to deny their actions, and then a Clumsiness damage dealers to blow them up

Daze + interrupts aren't what I'd consider an example of good synergy.
Daze not only doubles spell activation but it also makes the spells easily interrupted - you should be just hitting the foes instead of actively interrupting them.
Otherwise there is no point to even having daze. You could just go with AC/Migrane/Stolen Speed - but that will be more of a crutch for the interrupter that is bad at his job then good synergy.

A CoP nuker will outperform a Clumsy/WA spammer.
(And like previously stated) A CoP nuker can be anyone not just a mesmer primary.
(Edit: Unless of course you go for the best option - which is something I promoted with my first post, but that is something people obviously have a problem with.)

Magikarp · Aug 12, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Daze + interrupts aren't what I'd consider an example of good synergy.
Daze not only doubles spell activation but it also makes the spells easily interrupted - you should be just hitting the foes instead of actively interrupting them.
Otherwise there is no point to even having daze. You could just go with AC/Migrane/Stolen Speed - but that will be more of a crutch for the interrupter that is bad at his job then good synergy.

A CoP nuker will outperform a Clumsy/WA spammer.
(And like previously stated) A CoP nuker can be anyone not just a mesmer primary.
(Edit: Unless of course you go for the best option - which is something I promoted with my first post, but that is something people obviously have a problem with.)

first off, nukers are crap without a swarm of them, otherwise, CoP spamming from one mesmer echoing it is more damage, plus the mitigation of spell/action interruption. Cryway is a build that involves no AP and some basic team coordination to completely devastate groups with AoE damage, empathy, and degen. There are tons of teams that simply have a group of Cry mesmers that pass around strong degen like nightmare, while still playing offensive damage mitigation skills like WE and Clums, which more than one mesmer can run without the fear of casting over each other (its called teamwork -_-). if two necros with similar skills go on the field, people dont freak out and say "oh no, they'll just stand in a circle and cast on the same target der der der", no, they call their targets and work as a team to damage mobs as a group.

as for you comment about daze, thats also incorrect seeing as daze is a tool that SHOULD be properly utilized as an offensive measure, not just some stupid stall as you claim. you daze a monk in GvG, do you WAND him? no, you beat the shit out of him to make sure he's dead. if mr monk in pve HM is casting through daze, spike his butt and kill him, dont play some weird "lets just interrupt him like this cause he's daze" crap. use your tools if they're given to you.

you claim cast extensions are a crutch for "bad players", but last time i checked, the longer it takes the enemy to cast, the better off you are. *cough cough* thats why fast casting is so good in pvp..

also, synergy as a team comes in a thing called communication. idk if you just pug like hell all the time or something, but if my guild ran some splinter tank and spank crap, not only would we not have fun, but it would probably hinder our success speed in HM, whereas i can cast freely with my other CoP mesmers, and as wel call targets, melt all of the monsters off of the face of the planet in seconds, moving on as if nothing stood in our way to begin with.

you've got this holy trinity necro fanaticism crap on your brain. if you can't understand how active interruptions, damage mitigation, massive spammable AoE damage, and AoE degen dont do well in GWs, you're playing the wrong game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Clearly your the one bad at the game if you're posting here without reading all the overpowered builds of the mesmer

btw Kain.. i was being silly? lol. im on your side :P

DarkSpirit · Aug 12, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

First of all:
I don't see the connection between the two posts (unless of course the connection is to hex a foe with something like Backfire and when that foe uses a spell use CoP on them).
Second of all:
By the tone of your post I imagine you disagree with my statement.
Third of all:
I don't see how your comparison makes sense in connection with my post since Faint/SoF doesn't prevent the actions - which would work counter-productively but rather just makes the attacks happen less frequently.

Maybe I gave you more credit than I should, so let me explain to you why I used SS and Faint/SoF as an example.

SS damages everytime the target attacks, so you want to increase the target's attack speed as much as possible to up the damage from SS. This is why Reckless Haste is often used with SS. Faint/SoF on the other hand slows slows down a target's attack speed, which has the effect of reducing the damage output from SS.

SS, Faint, and SoF are all necro skills and all from the curse line. Just because necros have skills that work poorly together doesn't necessarily imply they have no synergy with one another in a team of necros.

In the same way, just because some mesmers skills do not work well with one another doesn't necessarily imply mesmers have no synergy with one another in a team of mesmers.

There you go!

weretoad · Aug 13, 2008, 01:49 AM // 01:49

i'm not a mesmer emo like upier (respectively) and not a blind mesmer fan, and i'm not as knowledged in the overall pve meta as i wished. however i think i know a think or 2 about mesmer in pve. as for the overall question a cryer is a typer of mesmer who goes crazy with cry of pain, which is probly the single most powerful aoe armor ingoring skill in the game, with a interupt on it.

upier is totally right that apart from the cryway mesmer don't stack well.
also we have a soul reaper replacement which is cop plus etheral burden. (i'm not saying its as good)

other people are right that you should stop telling us that rits, nerco, and rangers are better when ever we bring up an idea because that stuff is top of the line and we ALL know that, but mesmer still have cool, FUN things to use and video games are supposed to be fun, unless you have no life. so let all value how can be close to that. In every game theres a class, skill, weapon, tactic, that better then the rest, but people still use the other stuff right?

upier · Aug 13, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

first off, nukers are crap without a swarm of them, otherwise, CoP spamming from one mesmer echoing it is more damage, plus the mitigation of spell/action interruption. Cryway is a build that involves no AP and some basic team coordination to completely devastate groups with AoE damage, empathy, and degen. There are tons of teams that simply have a group of Cry mesmers that pass around strong degen like nightmare, while still playing offensive damage mitigation skills like WE and Clums, which more than one mesmer can run without the fear of casting over each other (its called teamwork -_-). if two necros with similar skills go on the field, people dont freak out and say "oh no, they'll just stand in a circle and cast on the same target der der der", no, they call their targets and work as a team to damage mobs as a group.

Wow.
First of all - if I understand correctly - Cryway is a simple tank'n'spank build.
It doesn't involve AoE Empathy nor does it involve degen.
It's used in DoA.
So what you are using isn't exactly Cryway.
It's TAM-Non-DoA-Cryway.

Second of all:
There is no added effect on running what you said.
You still haven't shown me the great synergy. Running 4 mesmers means running 4 party members UNLESS you run CoP and only one guy brings a mesmer hex - which makes the party more effective since the rest of the guys don't need to bring a hex just to trigger CoP.
You have 4 individuals doing what they do and the work that they do equals the work of 4 individuals. And those individuals could pretty much be anyone. Just bring CoP on anyone that can bring it.

(Plus I am not saying you should run two necros - well running a MM and a Curses is sweet because of the MoP/Barbs synergy. What I am saying you should run a necro (or a splinter ritu) with the best options in the game because of their synergy with those options. And those guys CAN run CoP which is godly - it's just that their non-PvE skills are better then what the mesmer has to offer. Or they don't need to waste skill-slots (or party-slots) on e-management.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

as for you comment about daze, thats also incorrect seeing as daze is a tool that SHOULD be properly utilized as an offensive measure, not just some stupid stall as you claim. you daze a monk in GvG, do you WAND him? no, you beat the shit out of him to make sure he's dead. if mr monk in pve HM is casting through daze, spike his butt and kill him, dont play some weird "lets just interrupt him like this cause he's daze" crap. use your tools if they're given to you.

Shall we leave PvP by side considering this is a discussion about PvE?
IF you have a mr. monk casting though daze in PvE and you have the tools to spike him - then it kinda doesn't make sense you dazed him in the first place.
The guy WILL die from the spike.
The only reason why you use daze in PvE - is to make sure the guy doesn't cast spells if you can't kill him instantly. And in which case you aren't using interrupts on him but you are hitting him. That is if you aren't using 4 mesmers who are busy casting things. You know - you have guys who are there to HIT things. And they hit hard.
When you have 4 people hitting a dazed guy you don't waste interrupts on him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

you claim cast extensions are a crutch for "bad players", but last time i checked, the longer it takes the enemy to cast, the better off you are. *cough cough* thats why fast casting is so good in pvp..

The reason why cast extensions are pretty much useless is because well ... you can kill foes in seconds.
So why shut them down when you can just kill them? This is also the reason why you pretty much only use daze in a few selected places.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

also, synergy as a team comes in a thing called communication. idk if you just pug like hell all the time or something, but if my guild ran some splinter tank and spank crap, not only would we not have fun, but it would probably hinder our success speed in HM, whereas i can cast freely with my other CoP mesmers, and as wel call targets, melt all of the monsters off of the face of the planet in seconds, moving on as if nothing stood in our way to begin with.

you've got this holy trinity necro fanaticism crap on your brain. if you can't understand how active interruptions, damage mitigation, massive spammable AoE damage, and AoE degen dont do well in GWs, you're playing the wrong game.

The biggest problem here is that you simply don't understand that the massive AoE spammable damage is a non-linked skill which can be used by anyone going mesmer secondary and the fact that your active interrupts are USELESS when you just have the tools (like SW, which works very nicely with KD's which the guys you should be using SW on, can achieve) to kill something before the interrupting/conditional damage that happens when a foes tries or does activate a skill even takes place.

Ohh and if SW hinders your guild team then I guess TAM always just runs nothing else but casters who never even hit anything with their weapon? Right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Maybe I gave you more credit than I should, so let me explain to you why I used SS and Faint/SoF as an example.

SS damages everytime the target attacks, so you want to increase the target's attack speed as much as possible to up the damage from SS. This is why Reckless Haste is often used with SS. Faint/SoF on the other hand slows slows down a target's attack speed, which has the effect of reducing the damage output from SS.

SS, Faint, and SoF are all necro skills and all from the curse line. Just because necros have skills that work poorly together doesn't necessarily imply they have no synergy with one another in a team of necros.

In the same way, just because some mesmers skills do not work well with one another doesn't necessarily imply mesmers have no synergy with one another in a team of mesmers.

There you go!

I do get why you used it.
That's why I didn't mention anything about AC/Migrane+Backfire.
I just don't see the connection since:

Quote:

such as skills that prevent the activation completion and skills that cause damage on activation.

nothing about AC/Migrane/SoF/Faint PREVENTS skill activation.
They just lengthen it.
That's why I don't see the relevance in your example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weretoad

i'm not a mesmer emo like upier (respectively)

Huh??!??!
Whatchu talkin' 'bout?

Quote:

Originally Posted by weretoad

also we have a soul reaper replacement which is cop plus etheral burden.

Actually just raise Deadly Arts high enough and you have the elite version of SR. (That's the reason why I don't bother using Inspiration these days despite my absolute love for that line.

)
That is why I also feel that that the best CoP nuker is a mesmer WITH AP.
Since if you are missing the synergy that the necro and the ritu bring then you need to do something insanely good to justify choosing a mesmer over them.
And that does it.
AP gives you SR like e-gain, which means that the mesmer has access to unlimited energy, while at the same time it also recharges all your skills which is very important because the mesmer nukes, although really decent with it's quite high armor ignoring damage output suffer from insanely long recharges. These nukes are important because they aren't dependent on a foe's action - they don't need to attack or something to take damage - you nuke folks when YOU want them.
And this I feel justifies bringing a mesmer.

But hey, what do I know ...

Magikarp · Aug 13, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

wall of text repeated over and over

we get it. you love necros and splinter weapon. some people like to play something besides these premade cookie cutter wiki builds you try to make everyone think are the best. its funny how well we can do, or other teams with one or two mesmers can do, but according to you, we should fail. how much extra crutch do you need in pve hm? you make it sound like the mesmer class offers nothing to the fight, like we simple stand there and explode. you've told us nothing except that splinter weapon, curse necros, and MMs are cool, great job, im really impressed. sure, you can take anything you want x/Me, but you cripple your bar for a useless base hex, and you get nearly no use from your secondary, which is one of the most attractive reasons to even play guild wars. last time i checked, i wanted my secondary to be of actual use.

Vazze · Aug 13, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

some people like to play something besides these premade cookie cutter wiki builds you try to make everyone think are the best.

luls dude you are running a tankandspank build, and you talk about creativity here? Uh, you replaced the eles with mesmers because after nine months you realized that CoP it is better than fire, gj. T&S is second only in the "Simple builds for noobs in GW" list (after ursan), enjoy the exploit as long as it lasts and pls restrain yourself from posting about builds.

DarkSpirit · Aug 13, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

First of all T&S is definitely not the only way to PvE HM. Remember we are talking about PvE here, which is generally quite forgiving. If anyone thinks it is the only way to PvE in HM, then I would show you evidence to prove otherwise.

My usual HM H/H group consists of all casters and maybe Zho, sometimes.

Mesmers skills generally work well with those from other professions. For example, you can use [[Deep Freeze] as a snare before you CoP or even [[Shared Burden]. As you have mentioned, [[Assassin's Promise] also works well for the recharge and energy. There are potential for [[Arcane Mimicry] to be used across mesmers to mimic skills like Lyssa's Aura for energy management. [[Signet of Illusion] is also useful when working across different attributes.

Magikarp · Aug 13, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

luls dude you are running a tankandspank build, and you talk about creativity here? Uh, you replaced the eles with mesmers because after nine months you realized that CoP it is better than fire, gj. T&S is second only in the "Simple builds for noobs in GW" list (after ursan), enjoy the exploit as long as it lasts and pls restrain yourself from posting about builds.

lol last time i checked, you need a "tank" to T&S, and almost al of my builds (minus when i play my warrior) for H/H dont even have melee, its all casters, kthxbai. also, fyi, i can't stand eles, have always preferred mesmers, and used CoP the day it was released. do me a favor and buy some reading comprehension.

weretoad · Aug 13, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

hello guy you don't read upiers long responses correctly do you, he has said the mesmer can work and work well. and yet you still say "upier all you like is soul reaping, splinter, and and and and that other really good stuff"
i really liked his last post, read it again, and again until you know where mesmer stand in pve

Magikarp · Aug 13, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by weretoad

hello guy you don't read upiers long responses correctly do you, he has said the mesmer can work and work well. and yet you still say "upier all you like is soul reaping, splinter, and and and and that other really good stuff"
i really liked his last post, read it again, and again until you know where mesmer stand in pve

then continue feeling as though ALL mesmers do well in pve is AP spamcast CoP and have fun. I'll continue playing HM with no difficulty using my own builds, and enjoying the freedoms of using my own brain.