Curse

kostolomac · Aug 09, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Nice team build , but why do you need backfire and empathy if you're gonna kill everything with arcane echo CoP , as a proc hex?

Vazze · Aug 09, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

bad team build....it is a tank and spank....both shutdown and CoP mesmers should be able to contribute in normal "balanced" teams well. No need for crap like that.

Magikarp · Aug 09, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Just because a person likes something, it doesn't make it good - and just because a person doesn't like something, it doesn't make it bad.
Unlimited energy is good (well, obviously NOT good for the game itself ...).
It doesn't matter that you find necros to be boring and ugly.
Is wandering/clumsy good?
Yeah it is.
Is it always good?
Well, it doesn't stack (in terms of having 5 people unload Clumsy on the same target) and it works against the favorite caster cookie (SS) - so ... it does have it's issues. (And like SS it actually requires and action from the foe - which makes it sub-par compared to having the chance to just nuke the hell out of the guys.)

Now - as I have stated many times - the (general) mesmer gets the job done in PvE. Pretty much everything does.
But there are specific builds, skills and crappy design choices that do the job better. And CoP is one of those skills. It being an unlinked skill (meaning that you gain as much from it when running on a secondary as you would on a primary) you need a good reason why you run it on something that gets the job done when you can run it on a class that has unlimited energy OR has access to something as insane as Splinter/AR.
The problem is that the mesmer primary doesn't offer you that reason (I mean seriously - there isn't even a MUST have hex to trigger CoP - people just use something that is cast fast and recharges fast!).
What the mesmer does offer is the chance to have CoP (like everyone else) MIXED with another broken skill (AP) - and that combo can only be achieved by going mesmer primary (or Assassin primary for obvious reasons).
That's why running a mesmer primary when it comes to CoP is good.
If on the other hand you can wait out the recharge of CoP - then AP loses it's point and then unlimited energy/Splinter wins.
Because people playing cookies sure as hell don't care that you feel that something is boring or ugly.

tl;dr same stuff, different day. just because you dont like something, doesnt mean its bad. you've yet to put out any real numbers, or any real data concerning this ever, in any post you've ever made on this subject. you simply bash mesmers for not having soul reaping, and say that splinter and ar are the two greatest skills ever made. also, good mesmers CAN chain clums and wandering, so yeah w/e.

DarkSpirit · Aug 09, 2008, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And CoP is one of those skills. It being an unlinked skill (meaning that you gain as much from it when running on a secondary as you would on a primary) you need a good reason why you run it on something that gets the job done when you can run it on a class that has unlimited energy OR has access to something as insane as Splinter/AR.

It is not so much the limitation of the mesmer class but the limitation of people who opt to run cookie-cutter builds for other professions instead of finding new mesmer builds. Since mesmers are not popular from the very beginning, most people either fall back on cookie-cutter builds for other professions or think of more new builds for the other professions.

Furthermore, mesmers were abused too much in PvP, for their energy/skill denial, in the past which caused a string of nerfs to skills that impact PvE mesmers even more. ANet has recently started to do the right thing for mesmers. We were the forgotten ones.

There are and will have more reasons to run a primary mesmer. The updated Extend Conditions would be one way to require an inspiration mesmer to spread perm conditions throughout the team.

Energy is the necro's thing. Signets should also be buffed so that artificer mesmers can be more useful, ignoring the need for more energy, making use of fast cast, and boosting the mesmer armor.

maxxfury · Aug 09, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by guruspack

So, plaese stop to bring suche unnecessary skills like meteor shower or AP into a cry team.

ill keep bringing AP to Cop with thank you... Spamming sins, cops, finish hims on every mobs.For general pve..

Beats waiting for reloads for damn sure! Less down time = more up time...more uptime = more damage, pve = damage. GG

(Unless its a full team cookie set up for a specific area thats been optimised to hell)

upier · Aug 10, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

tl;dr same stuff, different day. just because you dont like something, doesnt mean its bad. you've yet to put out any real numbers, or any real data concerning this ever, in any post you've ever made on this subject. you simply bash mesmers for not having soul reaping, and say that splinter and ar are the two greatest skills ever made. also, good mesmers CAN chain clums and wandering, so yeah w/e.

The mesmer is one my 3 favourite classes in the game and Clumsy is among my fave hexes.
Leaving that by side:
Since we are operating here on the idea that the foes adjacent to the target - otherwise Clumsy/WE also only hits one person - AR does around 100 damage (sure it is armour non-ignoring but with Weaken Armour it should be close to that) - and Splinter does around 150 (or 50ish to a single target) damage per attack.
With the way Splinter works you can throw it on at least two targets which can then just wand the group - doing 150 damage 5 times (or if you bring a Barrager for that it's a bit more instant)!
Now if the mesmer doesn't AP his skills - he is competing with a ritualist that enables that kind of damage PLUS there is nothing stopping the ritu from AEing CoP. (Ohh and did I mention that you can actually use the remaining 100 points to invest into resto to get some VERY nice effects?)
Or he is competing with someone who can raise 9 (or 10 if you like sup runes) minions and given the AI stupidity pretty much creates a wall in front of the party.
Or is able to create mass weakness, attack slowdowns (or foes missing), while having the ability to dish out some REALLY insane damage through MoP/Barbs.
ON top of being able to AE CoP.
Without EVER having energy issues.

Keep in mind that Splinter/AR/Barbs/MoP is damage that occurs when the players want it RATHER then conditional damage that happens when a foe executes a certain action!

So leaving the fact that you like mesmers by side - how can a mesmer compete? And yeah - I do mean damage-wise because, well, that's pretty much all there is to PvE.

Edit:
It seems I forgot to mention that you can actually pre-cast Splinter. So when the ritu or the mesmer is AEing CoP - the dude with Splinter on him (or better yet the two dudes) are also blowing things up.

Lishy · Aug 10, 2008, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Upier, you haven't heard of the new mesmer-way build, I came up with, right?
Mesmers are like Paragons. They need synergy for their full effectiveness.

Get a few heroes and you will have a kick ass build like this:
--------
You
extend conditions+technobabble+any blind skill of your choice

Gwen
Tease interrupt hero

Norgu
Generic Clumsiness Illusions mesmer

Optional:
Jora
"Symbolic Interrupt" (Hero using interruption signets and symbolic strike)
-----

This build rapes PvE to death with its over powered condition spreading and constant cussing from the enemies due to the massive interruption while still dealing a constant amount of damage. I cant post the builds yet though

upier · Aug 10, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Upier, you haven't heard of the new mesmer-way build, I came up with, right?

Pretty much the only conditions I do in PvE are DW (which is spammable), cracked (AoE already) and weakness (also AoE already).
Aegis works pretty much the same way that blind does (or better yet - minions do), and dazing the whole party, although sweet is an overkill (since basically you have that one foe that you want to daze IF you want to daze something).
So basically an EC mesmer ends up doing something (don't get me wrong) but considering you could be doing massive damage instead I really don't consider it being worth it - especially since you need to invest in what is the worst PvE mesmer line (well, next to FC) - Inspiration.

I've used two Barragers and me throwing Splinter and Warmongers on them when I wanted mass interrupts instead of Daze. So if you do run Techno+EC I'd suggest using a hero that can hit multiple targets instead of Jora.
Either a WS Dervi (should come in handy with EC) or a simple Barrager.

But then you need to ask yourself - what will you be bringing for the remaining 4 slots? Since if you do bring a Dervi/Barrager - and two more other physicals (I am guessing that the remaining two will be monkies) - why not just go with MORE physicals and use what are now the mesmer slots to buff them?

Lishy · Aug 10, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Meh, good point -.-

Magikarp · Aug 10, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The mesmer is one my 3 favourite classes in the game and Clumsy is among my fave hexes.
Leaving that by side:
Since we are operating here on the idea that the foes adjacent to the target - otherwise Clumsy/WE also only hits one person - AR does around 100 damage (sure it is armour non-ignoring but with Weaken Armour it should be close to that) - and Splinter does around 150 (or 50ish to a single target) damage per attack.
With the way Splinter works you can throw it on at least two targets which can then just wand the group - doing 150 damage 5 times (or if you bring a Barrager for that it's a bit more instant)!
Now if the mesmer doesn't AP his skills - he is competing with a ritualist that enables that kind of damage PLUS there is nothing stopping the ritu from AEing CoP. (Ohh and did I mention that you can actually use the remaining 100 points to invest into resto to get some VERY nice effects?)
Or he is competing with someone who can raise 9 (or 10 if you like sup runes) minions and given the AI stupidity pretty much creates a wall in front of the party.
Or is able to create mass weakness, attack slowdowns (or foes missing), while having the ability to dish out some REALLY insane damage through MoP/Barbs.
ON top of being able to AE CoP.
Without EVER having energy issues.

Keep in mind that Splinter/AR/Barbs/MoP is damage that occurs when the players want it RATHER then conditional damage that happens when a foe executes a certain action!

So leaving the fact that you like mesmers by side - how can a mesmer compete? And yeah - I do mean damage-wise because, well, that's pretty much all there is to PvE.

Edit:
It seems I forgot to mention that you can actually pre-cast Splinter. So when the ritu or the mesmer is AEing CoP - the dude with Splinter on him (or better yet the two dudes) are also blowing things up.

mesmers only get better in groups, mesmers deal more reliable damage, AR and splinter both deal non armor ignoring (lightning and physical), so monster armor affects in, so your numbers are wrong. mesmers have damage mitigation utility in nearly all of their shutdowns, including wandering, inep, clums, and mistrust, meaning we stop damage from kill anything WHILE we kill, and all in the same breath, we can run CoP without specs in anything but our own profession, making us extremely versatile in terms of additional damage, utility, or self preservation.

you need to get out of the old times and realize mesmers are better than what you give them credit for. also, while we get stronger in numbers, you rits or nrts only get redundant. for all i care, take a frontliner, two monks, one of your cookie rits, and the rest could be mesmers.

so while your one rit is amazing blah blah blah, my 4 mesmers will have everything stopped, dealing no damage, and dead before you rit can finish casting his second splinter.

FoxBat · Aug 10, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Actually splinter is armor ignoring. Ancestors is pretty questionable though.

Magikarp · Aug 10, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Actually splinter is armor ignoring. Ancestors is pretty questionable though.

splinter is physical damage. http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Splinter_Weapon

Lyynyyrd · Aug 10, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

splinter is physical damage. http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Splinter_Weapon

Can it be reduced further by using any of the +10 AL inscriptions?

Marverick · Aug 10, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

splinter is physical damage. http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Splinter_Weapon

It's still armor ignoring.

DarkSpirit · Aug 10, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

It's still armor ignoring.

Yes it is armor ignoring, although like many other physical skill bonuses, that is probably a bug.

Magikarp · Aug 10, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

i guess i would have to take your word that its simply bugged then. i personally rarely run it, because in groups, i myself dont run it, nor have H/H run it.

its still not 150 damage each.. its whatever splinter is bugged for, which at 15 i think is like 50ish, unless of course he meant total, in which case CoP, VoR, Clums, and Wandering are all still better, because they hit many more targets, and for way more damage... plus.. they STOP damage.

to me, its alllllll apples and oranges. if you dont like mesmers, fine, but they're not like they used to be, and are VERY VERY viable, if not great in pve. I do HUGE damage, kill in seconds, cover massive utility, mitigate damage like mad, interrupt, and degen all on the same bar... and i only get better with more mesmers. CoP is great, but its NOT the ONLY good thing from a mesmer.

i'll continue winning in pve, with my mesmer, shredding HM and all the elite spots, just like i have been.

apologies again for not taking the time to test Splinter and just assuming it worked as it was written.

DarkSpirit · Aug 10, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Pretty much the only conditions I do in PvE are DW (which is spammable), cracked (AoE already) and weakness (also AoE already).
Aegis works pretty much the same way that blind does (or better yet - minions do), and dazing the whole party, although sweet is an overkill (since basically you have that one foe that you want to daze IF you want to daze something).
So basically an EC mesmer ends up doing something (don't get me wrong) but considering you could be doing massive damage instead I really don't consider it being worth it - especially since you need to invest in what is the worst PvE mesmer line (well, next to FC) - Inspiration.

If you can perm aoe burning alone that is already 14hp per second for each target across the mob. Perm blind is 90% miss forever, Aegis is only 50% block for a mere 10s at level 12. Perm blind > Aegis.

Casters tend to clump together in pve so aoe daze is more effective, you dont need to daze just a single target. Slowing down ALL their casting rate by a factor 3 and making them easily interruptible to attacks is great. Not to mention perm DW, cripple, weakness, etc. across the mob, that has to be pretty awesome.

For Splinter ignoring armor, some thinks it is a bug, others dont. I think it is though. But since it is easy to make any damage ignore armor nowadays (i.e. cracked armor), most people dont think too much about it. The eles being a total failure remarks in HM were exaggerated since the smart ones can make use of cracked armor.

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 11, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by guruspack

Yesterday I've joined a cryway-team in the amrican-dis of GoA and I was shocked. Now I'm reading this thread an been shocked again. It seems, that my american friends have no idea what cryway is and how to play it.

So where do the majority of these teams go? I was hanging around (ToA American district) to see if people stopped using Ursan and went back to tank/ele groups, and most of them have.

Cry of Pain has always been there for people to abuse but I haven't seen a single pug run it. With Ursan partially gone, I hope this might change. I think the prob for the average pug'er is the fact that CoP is only one skill. For most people, filling in the blanks is hard and they need someone to hold their hand while doing it. I imagine that if an easy-to-use CoP team was posted on wiki, it'd probably give the build some popularity.

I've never joined a CoP team, but 100 dmg area-wide....I don't even need to see it in action to know it'd dominate so hard.

Magikarp · Aug 11, 2008, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

So where do the majority of these teams go? I was hanging around (ToA American district) to see if people stopped using Ursan and went back to tank/ele groups, and most of them have.

Cry of Pain has always been there for people to abuse but I haven't seen a single pug run it. With Ursan partially gone, I hope this might change. I think the prob for the average pug'er is the fact that CoP is only one skill. For most people, filling in the blanks is hard and they need someone to hold their hand while doing it. I imagine that if an easy-to-use CoP team was posted on wiki, it'd probably give the build some popularity.

I've never joined a CoP team, but 100 dmg area-wide....I don't even need to see it in action to know it'd dominate so hard.

i usually go to euro districts for CoP pugs, but tbh, CoP is one of those "things" you do in a guild or alliance group, not just a pug kinda "thing".. ya know?

and yes... it dominates... hard. lol.

guruspack · Aug 11, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

So where do the majority of these teams go? I was hanging around (ToA American district) to see if people stopped using Ursan and went back to tank/ele groups, and most of them have.

Cry of Pain has always been there for people to abuse but I haven't seen a single pug run it. With Ursan partially gone, I hope this might change. I think the prob for the average pug'er is the fact that CoP is only one skill. For most people, filling in the blanks is hard and they need someone to hold their hand while doing it. I imagine that if an easy-to-use CoP team was posted on wiki, it'd probably give the build some popularity.

I've never joined a CoP team, but 100 dmg area-wide....I don't even need to see it in action to know it'd dominate so hard.

Just check the european-german-district, there more and more people, who are pugging to cry-teams. but they use teamspeak most time, to get the spike accurate and off course most time they speak german

And look here http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10315892, but again there are better team-builds.