Curse

Jeydra · Oct 28, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

I decided to move this post here from the Elementalist subforums (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...19#post4321919). The original point I intend to contest is the claim that Mesmers are entirely useless in PvE, with everything they can do better done by everyone else (see quote).

This is a copy / paste of my previous post, so it's a bit disjointed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkshineKnight

Please, enlighten me then. What can Mesmers do that another class can't do better in PvE? You won't be able to come up with a valid answer, because the answer is nothing, other than some silly farming and running builds. Sure, in PvP, Mesmer's are great, but, this isn't PvP.

Well, let's see:

1. Play buffer. Signet of Illusions at 16 Illusion Magic allows the Mesmer to cast PvE skills beyond what anyone else can achieve. This allows a character with Judge's Insight, Great Dwarf Weapon, Aegis, etc. If you say that Superior runes are bad, I'll answer that sure they're bad in PvP, but this isn't PvP.
2. Shutdown. Monsters don't know not to cast through Diversion. Makes for easier kills if used on Monks; makes for more painless fights if used on skills like Searing Flames. Mesmers also have the only way of interrupting skills before they're cast - most relevant in HM since skills are hard to interrupt.
3. Fast Casting. I like how people say Mindbender Mindbender 40/40 40/40 etc as though that duplicates the effect of Fast Casting. It does alright, in an ideal world. Mindbender is a short-lasting enchantment that lasts, at best, 16 + 20% = 19 seconds. Against this it has a cooldown of 24 seconds. You cannot keep it up forever, and you have to refresh it quite often. This is a significant drawback compared to the passive Fast Casting - I know, because I play ER Elementalists quite often and having to refresh Ether Renewal every 20 seconds is one of the build's greatest drawbacks. 40/40 sets help, except of course they are unreliable. That much should be obvious; you don't get faster casts when you need them. And let's not forget that the AI has some incredible reflexes when it comes to interrupting.
4. Visions of Regret. This hex is powerful, unlike what some people think.
5. What if you don't have PvE skills? Mesmer heroes have uses over other professions, as seen in this topic: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10322527

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

No, they aren't. The only hexes worth bringing in PvE on a Mesmer are VoR, Arcane Conudrum, Wandering Eye and Clumsiness.

VoR, WE and Clums are all outclassed for the most part; one skill. Spiteful Spirit. Arcane Conundrum is heavily surpassed by BHA / Volley, which can also be used to spread blind and deep wound aswell; with the add on effect of interruption on hit.

Spiteful Spirit doesn't work very well on casters. Visions of Regret, on the other hand, does. BHA doesn't work very well on physicals. Visions of Regret, on the other hand, does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Unless your Ranger is retarded, line of sight wouldn't be a problem. Oh, and tell me one Mesmer skill that outclasses BHA in any way.

Of course line of sight is a problem. If you're fighting around corners (as I do quite often) then to gain line of sight exposes you to the line of fire. And of course there're other situations where the place you're fighting has natural obstacles (eg. the temple in the FoW). And you haven't mentioned that Ranger interrupts can be blocked or dodged. And you haven't mentioned either that Ranger interrupts are significantly slower than Mesmer interrupts, albeit also significantly more spammable.

As for a Mesmer skill that ouclasses BHA, easy. Empathy > BHA against a Warrior (duh).

Stealth Bomberman · Oct 28, 2008, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As for a Mesmer skill that ouclasses BHA, easy. Empathy > BHA against a Warrior (duh).

migraine+spammable/unblockable interupts>BHA

FlamingMetroid · Oct 28, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Thing is in PvE you can roll through things so fast with a bunch of melees and an imbagon, that the mesmer really cant help very much. Sure your mesmer can shutdown people, but in PvE you don't have to so its much more beneficial to have 1 more person hitting things.

Daesu · Oct 28, 2008, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

migraine+spammable/unblockable interupts>BHA

As long as these hexes are not in fast casting, any secondary mesmer can use them too.

The problem is that primary mesmers have useless primary attribute like fast casting. Compared to soul reaping, FC is so useless since a level 15 FC can be replaced by mindbender or a 40/40 set.

Even interrupts, BHA is more effective because any hit from anyone would interrupt the dazed target. And even with 0 FC power return would still interrupt just as well.

The game design just works against primary mesmers.

Tyla · Oct 28, 2008, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

1. Play buffer. Signet of Illusions at 16 Illusion Magic allows the Mesmer to cast PvE skills beyond what anyone else can achieve. This allows a character with Judge's Insight, Great Dwarf Weapon, Aegis, etc. If you say that Superior runes are bad, I'll answer that sure they're bad in PvP, but this isn't PvP.

The question is: why?

Superior rune or not; SoI is a bad skill and there are other skills worth running. Even SoM comes into this equation.

The reason SoI is bad is because there's no reason to run it. That extra damage from PvE skills is negligible and better enhanced by simply running Assassins' Promise, which recharges your PvE skills too. Heck, even Echo would be a stronger skill. FC Nukers; again, why? If you're running X attribute, there's always room for an attribute split for an easily viable build set.

Quote:

2. Shutdown. Monsters don't know not to cast through Diversion. Makes for easier kills if used on Monks; makes for more painless fights if used on skills like Searing Flames. Mesmers also have the only way of interrupting skills before they're cast - most relevant in HM since skills are hard to interrupt.

A simple BHA would clear this up easily. Even then, Diversion is a weak skill in terms of the PvE enviroment. If you can't hammer them down with insane pressure, or a spike (Discord, CoP - you get the picture), then completely rethink what you're doing. The addon with BHA is that it interrupts and extends the cast time of an enemy spell, and that is enhanced by the amount of people attacking that target. Heck, if you want shutdown, a simple knockdown can also be more powerful.

Quote:

3. Fast Casting. I like how people say Mindbender Mindbender 40/40 40/40 etc as though that duplicates the effect of Fast Casting. It does alright, in an ideal world. Mindbender is a short-lasting enchantment that lasts, at best, 16 + 20% = 19 seconds. Against this it has a cooldown of 24 seconds. You cannot keep it up forever, and you have to refresh it quite often. This is a significant drawback compared to the passive Fast Casting - I know, because I play ER Elementalists quite often and having to refresh Ether Renewal every 20 seconds is one of the build's greatest drawbacks. 40/40 sets help, except of course they are unreliable. That much should be obvious; you don't get faster casts when you need them. And let's not forget that the AI has some incredible reflexes when it comes to interrupting.

Reflexes in interrupting doesn't make an interrupter - the usage of the interruption is the key thing. Enemies in PvE don't have any insight on what to interrupt at all, which keeps this open. Plus the fact FC would have a negligible effect anyway considering the enemies have mad reflexes.

Quote:

Spiteful Spirit doesn't work very well on casters. Visions of Regret, on the other hand, does. BHA doesn't work very well on physicals. Visions of Regret, on the other hand, does.

If 99% of all enemies in PvE didn't autoattack through everything, I'd agree with the first part of this. BHA doesn't work well on physicals, true, but what kind of tard uses BHA in an area filled with physicals that don't use spells? Saying that the amount of times I've been BHA'd on a Shock Axe by the Ranger in AB I don't even want to get into that. VoR isn't a bad skill, but I wouldn't run it over Spiteful Spirit, and at the same time I also get a more accessable skill line in terms of the PvE enviroment.

Quote:

Of course line of sight is a problem. If you're fighting around corners (as I do quite often) then to gain line of sight exposes you to the line of fire. And of course there're other situations where the place you're fighting has natural obstacles (eg. the temple in the FoW). And you haven't mentioned that Ranger interrupts can be blocked or dodged. And you haven't mentioned either that Ranger interrupts are significantly slower than Mesmer interrupts, albeit also significantly more spammable.

Ranger interrupts being dodged isn't a problem at all; you trying to D-Shot Frenzy or something?

Them being blocked is an easy task to overcome, and even then it can be missed out. A good skill to use is Rigor Mortis, especially when you're using a team build based on physical damage output, and it also helps stop BHA from being blocked. Line-of-sight isn't really much of a problem at all though. As I've already said; if enemies knew understood how to overtake the ranged damage problem, it might become a problem. Unfortunately, they don't, so if that is a problem to the Ranger, tell them to learn basic positioning.

Quote:

As for a Mesmer skill that ouclasses BHA, easy. Empathy > BHA against a Warrior (duh).

Different skills for different purposes. The only difference with this is that BHA does nothing against a Warrior (unless s/he's running some mad shit), and Empathy only applies pressure through the attack of an enemy Warrior. Not that this applies to PvE, however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

migraine+spammable/unblockable interupts>BHA

No. Migraine and X interrupts are more than two skills, whereas BHA is one that can be heavily amplified through the number of targets attacking that target, and even spread through Epidemic, Fevered Dreams and whatever that other skill is. Another benefit to this is it also spreads other conditions, which can include Cracked Armour, Weakness, Blind, Cripple, Deep Wound and the various degeneration conditions.

Numa Pompilius · Oct 28, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

VoR used to be crap, but is amazingly powerful now after it's been buffed. If you open with VoR you can often hex the entire group of mobs, and especially skill-spamming mobs like dervishes blow up nearly instantly. The one downside with VoR is that it's so stupidly powerful it's hard to motivate ever bringing any other elite.
Similarly Empathy is much more painful for an enemy warrior than Spiteful Spirit, you really have to Arcane Echo Spiteful to have it do serious damage.

Energy used to be a huge problem for mesmers too, but that's also been buffed. Mesmer interrupts used to have huge costs and even huger recharge: both buffed.

The mesmer profession is more powerful now in PvE than it's ever been. With VoR, Cry of Pain, Empathy and a couple of interrupts you'll be burning through the PvE.

Re: signet of illusion... I personally don't like that elite. It's a bandaid skill, added because mesmers were considered weak, and though it can be used to abuse PvE skills it's still inelegant and kludgy. IMO.

Auron of Neon · Oct 28, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Well, let's see:

1. Play buffer. Signet of Illusions at 16 Illusion Magic allows the Mesmer to cast PvE skills beyond what anyone else can achieve. This allows a character with Judge's Insight, Great Dwarf Weapon, Aegis, etc. If you say that Superior runes are bad, I'll answer that sure they're bad in PvP, but this isn't PvP.

Yeah, 16 spec judge's insight is definitely gamebreaking. GDW is fine as it is tbh, it doesn't need 16 spec to break the game - which means you could do something useful with your elite instead of wasting it on SoI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

2. Shutdown. Monsters don't know not to cast through Diversion. Makes for easier kills if used on Monks; makes for more painless fights if used on skills like Searing Flames. Mesmers also have the only way of interrupting skills before they're cast - most relevant in HM since skills are hard to interrupt.

Diversion is trash in PvE. The monsters should be dead before their skill recharges anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

3. Fast Casting. I like how people say Mindbender Mindbender 40/40 40/40 etc as though that duplicates the effect of Fast Casting. It does alright, in an ideal world. Mindbender is a short-lasting enchantment that lasts, at best, 16 + 20% = 19 seconds. Against this it has a cooldown of 24 seconds. You cannot keep it up forever, and you have to refresh it quite often. This is a significant drawback compared to the passive Fast Casting - I know, because I play ER Elementalists quite often and having to refresh Ether Renewal every 20 seconds is one of the build's greatest drawbacks. 40/40 sets help, except of course they are unreliable. That much should be obvious; you don't get faster casts when you need them. And let's not forget that the AI has some incredible reflexes when it comes to interrupting.

Glyph of Swiftness says you're wrong. Mindbender is pretty maintainable, as is ER. In normal PvE, ER is awesome and lets you spam any number of skills without any concern for energy. In that specific DoA farming build, ER is superior to pretty much anything a mesmer could do, even with recasting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

4. Visions of Regret. This hex is powerful, unlike what some people think.

One skill? Nice work! It still isn't as good as spiteful spirit, nor do mesmers have utility on the rest of their bar to match that of necromancers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

5. What if you don't have PvE skills?

You kill yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Spiteful Spirit doesn't work very well on casters. Visions of Regret, on the other hand, does. BHA doesn't work very well on physicals. Visions of Regret, on the other hand, does.

Firstly, yes, Spiteful Spirit does work very well on casters. They wand between casting because enemy AI is stupid. In hard mode, they wand with permanent IAS, which means they take damage faster.
Secondly, why would you use BHA on a physical? That's retarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As for a Mesmer skill that ouclasses BHA, easy. Empathy > BHA against a Warrior (duh).

You're so dumb it hurts. The only thing that would sort of compare to BHA is frustration or migraine, except neither of those cause automatic interrupts whenever the target is hit.

TrippieHippie89 · Oct 28, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09

i love threads like this one...especially when i get to argue with [tam] kids in the process ^_^ thanks sindo

ahem...anyway back on topic...mesmers, pve, effectivenes

First of all, EVERY single argument ive seen for anti pve mesmers is: Diversions baed, shutdowns baed, and you can do it on a non mesmer just as well. You need to look at mesmers as armor ignoring damage(that is, that HM boss your eles doing 5 dmg to with SF) a mesmers going to drop in a few seconds.

Quote:

VoR, WE and Clums are all outclassed for the most part; one skill. Spiteful Spirit. Arcane Conundrum is heavily surpassed by BHA / Volley, which can also be used to spread blind and deep wound aswell; with the add on effect of interruption on hit.

im assuming BHA is broadheaded arrow...how do bha and volley spread blind and dw? Also arcane conumdrum is just baed...stop trying

[quote]Unless your Ranger is retarded, line of sight wouldn't be a problem. Oh, and tell me one Mesmer skill that outclasses BHA in any way.[/quote

out classes bha? hmmm whats better than a slow moving arrow that can be blocked/dodged/etc/etc/etc lets think for a moment shall we?

VoR/backfire...wow good job you dazed that caster...now lets wait for your -4 to kill him or...hey look he casts and just blew the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up, cool

Quote:

Even interrupts, BHA is more effective because any hit from anyone would interrupt the dazed target. And even with 0 FC power return would still interrupt just as well.

do i need to sit you down and list all the skills that block/dodge, and YES line of sight is an issue, say youre positioning yourself into los after the mosnter just scattered from aoe and moved out of it, durring that timeframe he just cast an important skill, but you missed it cause your arrow is still flying through the air. or say you were interupting in pve on a mesmer(not sure why, vor/dommage is much more brave) you can interupt while hiding behind walls, which means you wont be taking as much damage, which means your healers will have to work less, etc etc etc...but i dont expect pvers to understand damage mitigation so im not even going to bother

also, for you kids who scream boo who needs shutdown, shutdown in pve is bad blah blah blah blah blah....why you running a bha ranger, i hurd that was shutdown

Quote:

The reason SoI is bad is because there's no reason to run it. That extra damage from PvE skills is negligible and better enhanced by simply running Assassins' Promise, which recharges your PvE skills too. Heck, even Echo would be a stronger skill. FC Nukers; again, why? If you're running X attribute, there's always room for an attribute split for an easily viable build set.

you seem to be missing the point of SoI, it isnt just to have soi and 7 skills from one att line, its so you can mix a handfull of different ones, and use pve skills without having to grind for hours and hours just to make them usefull(big plus from my point of view) take the latest frag spiker mesmer, lets go with your argument and run that off an ele...spec into illusion, fire, water, air, and energy storage and make the build as effective as a SoI fragspike mesmer

Quote:

If 99% of all enemies in PvE didn't autoattack through everything, I'd agree with the first part of this. BHA doesn't work well on physicals, true, but what kind of tard uses BHA in an area filled with physicals that don't use spells? Saying that the amount of times I've been BHA'd on a Shock Axe by the Ranger in AB I don't even want to get into that. VoR isn't a bad skill, but I wouldn't run it over Spiteful Spirit, and at the same time I also get a more accessable skill line in terms of the PvE enviroment.

VoR
Empathy
Backfire
Pain Inverter
Arcane Echo
Cry of Pain
Ether Nightmare
GoLE(or necrosis if youve got a bipper)

gud aoe damage and aoe degen, and the ability to blow up any boss(melee or caster) in seconds....but no, youre right...mesmers are simply terrible...spitefull spirit is infinately better than that with a few 35's floating around

oh, and i also seem to have heard through the grapevine mesmers have made thier way into UWSC with cryers and last i heard that was pve

overall gg on my part, and a big ole <3 to sindo for finding this and giving me something to troll

edit:im going to choose to ignore the 2-3 people that posted in the time it took me to type this, mainly because they really didnt add anything that hasnt been said 100 times before, but mostly cause im really damn lazy

Dark Desicration · Oct 28, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

i love threads like this one...especially when i get to argue with [tam] kids in the process ^_^ thanks sindo

overall gg on my part, and a big ole <3 to sindo for finding this and giving me something to troll

I do my best. Mesmer discussions spark my interest specially.

Jeydra · Oct 28, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Seems lots of people haven't understood the context of my making this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The question is: why?

Superior rune or not; SoI is a bad skill and there are other skills worth running. Even SoM comes into this equation.

The reason SoI is bad is because there's no reason to run it. That extra damage from PvE skills is negligible and better enhanced by simply running Assassins' Promise, which recharges your PvE skills too. Heck, even Echo would be a stronger skill. FC Nukers; again, why? If you're running X attribute, there's always room for an attribute split for an easily viable build set.

The original statement was, you can't do anything - anything - in PvE with Mesmers that someone else can do better with another class. So can you make a build that buffs party members better than with SoI?

@Auron - If you could summon 8 players with any class and every build at will, as well as them being R10 Asura / Vanguard / Norn / Dwarf, then SoI buffer isn't going to be a good choice for a spot in the team. But if you cannot - and most teams cannot, and have to work with what they have - then this is certainly a possible build to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

A simple BHA would clear this up easily. Even then, Diversion is a weak skill in terms of the PvE enviroment. If you can't hammer them down with insane pressure, or a spike (Discord, CoP - you get the picture), then completely rethink what you're doing. The addon with BHA is that it interrupts and extends the cast time of an enemy spell, and that is enhanced by the amount of people attacking that target. Heck, if you want shutdown, a simple knockdown can also be more powerful.

The original statement was you can't do anything - anything in PvE with Mesmers that someone else can do better with another class. So can you make a build that shuts down a target better than a Mesmer primary? Or shut dow multiple targets, for that matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Reflexes in interrupting doesn't make an interrupter - the usage of the interruption is the key thing. Enemies in PvE don't have any insight on what to interrupt at all, which keeps this open. Plus the fact FC would have a negligible effect anyway considering the enemies have mad reflexes.

Mad reflexes or no, a 1/2 second cast spell is going to be harder than a 1 second cast spell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If 99% of all enemies in PvE didn't autoattack through everything, I'd agree with the first part of this. BHA doesn't work well on physicals, true, but what kind of tard uses BHA in an area filled with physicals that don't use spells? Saying that the amount of times I've been BHA'd on a Shock Axe by the Ranger in AB I don't even want to get into that. VoR isn't a bad skill, but I wouldn't run it over Spiteful Spirit, and at the same time I also get a more accessable skill line in terms of the PvE enviroment.

Of course a good Ranger isn't going to cast BHA on physicals - that's because the skill is not worth using on physicals as Dazed has no serious effect on them, which makes BHA inferior to Empathy against physicals.

And I think you missed the point. The point is that VoR accomplishes some of what both Spiteful Spirit and BHA can do in a single skill. Spiteful Spirit is not very effective against casters while VoR is; BHA is not effective against physicals while VoR is. VoR then is very strong because it accomplishes in a single skill what it takes two skills to accomplish otherwise. Comparison: Backfire is useless on physicals but good on casters. Visions of Regret is good on both physicals and on casters. Does that mean VoR better than Backfire?

I'm not saying VoR is better than BHA and Spiteful Spirit. In their respective domains (BHA vs. casters, SS vs. physicals) they're probably better. But it does mean that your statement, that VoR is 'outclassed' by Spiteful Spirit, is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Them being blocked is an easy task to overcome, and even then it can be missed out. A good skill to use is Rigor Mortis, especially when you're using a team build based on physical damage output, and it also helps stop BHA from being blocked. Line-of-sight isn't really much of a problem at all though. As I've already said; if enemies knew understood how to overtake the ranged damage problem, it might become a problem. Unfortunately, they don't, so if that is a problem to the Ranger, tell them to learn basic positioning.

So you agree that line of sight is a problem, however minor, and that your original argument that line of sight is not a problem if the Ranger is not retarded is an overstatement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Different skills for different purposes. The only difference with this is that BHA does nothing against a Warrior (unless s/he's running some mad shit), and Empathy only applies pressure through the attack of an enemy Warrior. Not that this applies to PvE, however.

So you agree also that your original statement, that no Mesmer skill outclasses BHA in any way (which automatically includes vs. physicals) is an overstatement?

By the way if you say it's 'obvious' that you don't mean against physicals (it's not obvious to me, but OK), do note that Guilt, Mistrust and Shame can interrupt spells before they're cast. BHA cannot do this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron

Glyph of Swiftness says you're wrong. Mindbender is pretty maintainable, as is ER. In normal PvE, ER is awesome and lets you spam any number of skills without any concern for energy. In that specific DoA farming build, ER is superior to pretty much anything a mesmer could do, even with recasting it.

You can Glyph of Swiftness Mindbender, but that puts it in the same category as ER. Yes ER is powerful and it has several overwhelming strengths - but it also has some glaring weaknesses. One of its glaring weaknesses is that you have to use 2 seconds + aftercast to refresh ER every 20 seconds or so. So if you want to use the Glyph on Mindbender, you can, but you have to accept the consequences (aside from downtime, other consequences include locking down your secondary profession as Elementalist as well as using up an additional slot on your bar). It's a considerable investment, against sinking points into Fast Casting. Pick whatever.

As for your other points, see above response to Tyla.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

im assuming BHA is broadheaded arrow...how do bha and volley spread blind and dw? Also arcane conumdrum is just baed...stop trying

He's probably thinking of Epidemic spreading Blind and Deep Wound, which has to be applied by some other class.

Racthoh · Oct 28, 2008, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

VoR

Unless you're fighting something that is constantly using skills faster than a warrior with Splinter Weapon can attack (not possible unless aftercast doesn't exist) it's not that strong. Splinter Weapon also recharges in 5 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

Empathy

Killing something that swings into my Aegis, or spends most of the time running around while I kite, or has its attributes reduced by 1 while dealing 66% less damage, does not make Empathy a good skill. It's a spell you cast on something you're going to kill last, otherwise you're not getting anything out of it. In which case why am I bringing a skill to deal with the last enemy of the group?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

Backfire

It's basically somewhat weaker than dazing something. A single Broadhead Arrow basically kills any caster since they won't be casting a single spell after it lands. Backfire means I'm still getting hexes dumped on my party, elementalists are throwing out AoE, etc. Backfire is decent if you're expecting mobs with multiple healers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

Pain Inverter

PvE skill so anyone can use it, and really it's not all that great. In order for Pain Inverter to be good you have to let whatever you're fighting beat the hell out of you. I'd rather daze a caster or weaken a physical than let it wreck havoc on my party to deal a whopping 80 damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

Arcane Echo
Cry of Pain

Anyone can do this even at first level. 200 AoE armor ignoring damage every 12 seconds does not make me spring to find more friends who play mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

Ether Nightmare

A bad skill to fuel the 100 AoE armor ignoring damage. Focused Anger is not the best Paragon elite but the skill it fuels is top tier. Reducing damage by 82.5% is worth my elite slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

GoLE(or necrosis if youve got a bipper)

BiP is horrible, Necrosis isn't that good; 5 energy to do warrior damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

aoe degen

Degen does not win PvE. Well it might but it does so at a crawling pace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

oh, and i also seem to have heard through the grapevine mesmers have made thier way into UWSC with cryers and last i heard that was pve

UWSC is not the entirety of PvE. UWSC is just gimmick x vs. gimmick y. That's what just about every single speed clear is about, using gimmicky overpowered PvE skills with consumables to stomp face. Cryway is just as big a gimmick as Ursan was and if it ever gets hit with a balance the concept crumbles.

Div · Oct 28, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Amazing amounts of utter suck and fail and I swear to god if you guys don't close or delete this you are harming this community by allowing shit like this to fester. Seriously, get rid of this trash, before everybody and their mother comes to troll it which will cause you to close/delete it ANYWAY except you'll have a trail of shit to pick up instead of just a small pile. Except this is a massive steaming rank pile of shit. LITTERBOX THIS PRONTO, THANKS.

I love you.

Some of the information here is just terrible and plain wrong. It's like reading arguments about the legal process in Ukraine made by fifth graders in America. If you want something accurate, read Tyla or Racthoh's posts.

Instead of this theorycrafting that's going to get torn apart, why don't you post specific builds for each of the examples? It's easier to compare skillbar effectiveness than try to talk about something this abstract. Closing before this becomes a flamefest. If you want to continue the debate, post actual builds in a new thread.

(I think this is the first time I actually bothered to close a thread because of spam emails I'm getting with all these reports. Way to break my record Faer.)