Curse

MisterT69 · Oct 31, 2008, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The only problem with that is that it's not maintainable, which could be a problem with Cryway. Also, CoP + VoR is quite contradicting; you interrupt a skill with CoP. SS also outdoes it being in a more accessable skill line and counting on everything; not all enemies in PvE cast 100% of the time.

No they don't, but considering at 15 curses SS does 35 dmg on attack, even if they cast once every 3 secs, that matches the power of 1 skill cast w/vor, and with backfire, the enemy would have to hit a little over 6 times to equal the power of one spell cast with VoR/backfire (230 dmg). CoP is really just a good finisher imo. The only downside to the VoR is that a skill needs to be completed to work, but it usually doesn't matter with a good team, enemy's dead in a few secs anyway XD.

Tyla · Oct 31, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Well at the same time, SS also affects everything in an adjacent radius and can be echoed to a further strength. VoR, on the other hand can't. Don't get me wrong, VoR is actually a pretty good skill in PvE when it comes to Mesmers, but when SS affects the entire mob off a single enemy attack or skill cast, I'd rather see that dealing the numbers.

draxynnic · Oct 31, 2008, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwny Ride

So, you made a new thread linked to an old closed (for a very good reason) thread, just to tell everyone what you've been doing in PvE.

Quoting from the thread closer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Instead of this theorycrafting that's going to get torn apart, why don't you post specific builds for each of the examples? It's easier to compare skillbar effectiveness than try to talk about something this abstract. Closing before this becomes a flamefest. If you want to continue the debate, post actual builds in a new thread.

So I've done exactly as instructed by the thread closer - posted an actual build in a new thread.

The interesting thing, if I'm not the person who coined the 'anything Mesmers can do in PvE someone else can do better' phrase, I'm certainly one of the earlier people to do so. This was before the update to VoR, but the jury is still out on that - I personally think mesmer heroes can compete with heroes of other classes now, but I doubt I can show hard enough evidence to convince the doubters, so I'm not even going to bother trying. (Having seen new posts come up since I started writing, however, I will comment that VoR is better for covering the whole group when you can catch them bunched up and then they spread out, while SS wins if they stay bunched up and you Arcane Echo it.)

The build I started with, however, does do things that I don't think can be done as well with another primary. As long as the rest of the party can sufficiently assist a spike, at speed it can unload two assassins and a CoP (or two CoPs and an assassin, depending on the situation), the odd Auspicious Incantation, and a "Finish Him!" to keep momentum going every four seconds or so - if the enemy lasts long enough to withstand the whole combo. End result is something of a cross between your standard Mesmer-secondary CoP-nuker and a MM, except that it allows the ability to quickly build a swarm without worrying about corpse availability, losing control of the swarm (either from MM death or simply from the minion AI not doing what you want it to - the assassins will kill the target before looking for targets of opportunity) or having to maintain the swarm in the meantime. (That said, I generally run the build with a MM - the minions from the MM soak damage while the assassins get kills and supplement the swarm.)

I also find the build is good for 'sniping' things like the Terrorwebs on the cliffs in Tombs or the archers in the Kournan garrisons - usually, the combo will kill at least one target, allowing you to wear them down with almost no risk until the numbers in the garrison are small enough to be manageable with a frontal assault.

So, as Jeydra said: I've presented a build with a Mesmer primary that can do what it does better than I believe can be done with any other primary. Can anyone come up with a build with a different primary that performs the same role better?

Jeydra · Nov 12, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

In a desired Cryway group, I'll probably be running Assassins' Promise, Mind Wrack and Cry of Pain. If it's not enough damage, "Finish Him!" will be added. The 20 degeneration won't make a difference against an enemy with energy that is incredibly hard to slow down unless you're chaining the Visage skills. If you want speed, casting speed is also an important factor, aswell as aggro management and team coordination. If you know how to effectively put these to good use, you don't need stuff like Ether Nightmare to cover it up. Spiking isn't hard when your enemies' Monks are absolute crap.

gg?

*Offers Tyla a handshake*

Tyla · Nov 12, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

gg?

*Offers Tyla a handshake*

You're in the wrong thread, that post was in this thread, and this post exactly.

It seems you're just desperate for +1's or something, because there was no reason you couldn't have posted that in the other thread alongside your other post. And even then, what are you trying to imply?

Oh, I see now. Ether Renewal and Assassins' Promise are both contenders. It depends highly on the bars themselves.

Jeydra · Nov 12, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I'm in the right thread alright, if I posted in the other thread I'd go dangerously off-topic.

I thought it's fairly obvious what I'm trying to imply: there is a point in being a Mesmer primary in PvE, and your own quote definitely seems to imply that, too. I highlighted three points. You can't have Assassin's Promise and Cry of Pain unless you're A/Me or Me/A. Finish Him! is ten energy, and Cry of Pain is energy intensive, so you need a larger energy pool to begin with (sort of like it's hard to run Meteor Shower on a Sin, but easy for Elementalists, since Elementalists have larger energy pools). And of course you said casting speed is also an important factor, which obviously implies you're talking about Me/A instead of A/Me.

It seems you're arguing against yourself, because you once said 'bring up absolutely anything in the support of a Mesmer primary in PvE; I'll be glad to argue against that'.

As far as I can see, you've pretty much changed your mind but don't want to lose face by openly admitting you're wrong, which is why you posted in another thread instead of this one. I can understand that quite well because I've done that myself a few times. That's why I offered you a handshake. If you think I'm being stupid though, feel free to refuse the handshake.

Tyla · Nov 12, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Oh, okay.

Fast Casting can be manipulated with Mindbender; which is much better than Fast Casting. It can be further powered with Fast Casting itself if need be. Speed is an important factor in speedruns, but sometimes speed also cuts energy reserves. For example, even a Mesmer running Arcane Echo and Assassins' Promise in conjunction with whatever hex and Cry of Pain will get troubled on energy occasionally. There's a point, but that point is easily manipulated and available under a few circumstances.

MegaVolti · Nov 14, 2008, 11:54 AM // 11:54

[Signet of Illusions][Clumsiness][Wandering Eye][Crystal Wave][Ward against Melee][Backfire][Auspicious Incantation][Energy Tap]

Never runs out of energy, casts fast, has a lot of melee hate (interrupt and block are both awesome and will make your monks happy), can shut down an enemy monk and deals tons of damage. Without using a single PvE only skill.

Which class can do that better? You could go primary Ele, which then means less damage, worse energy management but a little more energy to start with.

Another possibility:
[Empathy][Tease][Cry of Frustration][Cry of Pain][Mistrust][Guilt][Pain Inverter][Flesh of my flesh]

Shuts down casters and deals good AoE damage in the process. A lot more damage then any BHA Ranger could do. Using another primary will add nothing to it but take away damage (and the hard rezz, unless the new primary is Monk or Ritualist).

Oh, the Tease description here is wrong. It got updated, check GuildWiki for the real description

Jeydra · Nov 14, 2008, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Oh, okay.

Fast Casting can be manipulated with Mindbender; which is much better than Fast Casting. It can be further powered with Fast Casting itself if need be. Speed is an important factor in speedruns, but sometimes speed also cuts energy reserves. For example, even a Mesmer running Arcane Echo and Assassins' Promise in conjunction with whatever hex and Cry of Pain will get troubled on energy occasionally. There's a point, but that point is easily manipulated and available under a few circumstances.

A word of warning when looking at a build ... watch out for cheezestats. A build that tells you you can deal 300+ damage with Lightning Orb to a caster assuming you have By Ural's Hammer active, Intensity active, Glyph of Elemental Power active, +2 to all attributes from various consumables and are standing in a Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (or, even better, assumes the target is in Frenzy) is just stupid.

The same applies to Mindbender. Mindbender is not a long-lasting enchantment. Assuming you have R10 Asura, it lasts 16 seconds, add another 3 seconds for +20% enchant mod and it's still 19 seconds only. 19 seconds is not long, and if you want to keep it up all the time it is a significant drawback (same applies to ER - you have to refresh it often).

I seriously doubt an Assassin primary running Cry of Pain with Mindbender is superior to a Mesmer primary running Cry of Pain. What advantage does the Assassin have anyway? Well he can raise his Deadly Arts to 14-16, but the Mesmer can raise Inspiration Magic and use Auspicious Incantation, while keeping Deadly Arts at 12. You could press an argument for Assassin primary if you assume Mindbender to always be active, but of course you cannot, and keeping Mindbender active as often as possible extracts a cost that goes directly into your damage output.

Nope I don't see.

Will you say Mesmer primaries have at least one use in PvE now?

Tyla · Nov 14, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The same applies to Mindbender. Mindbender is not a long-lasting enchantment. Assuming you have R10 Asura, it lasts 16 seconds, add another 3 seconds for +20% enchant mod and it's still 19 seconds only. 19 seconds is not long, and if you want to keep it up all the time it is a significant drawback (same applies to ER - you have to refresh it often).

Maintainable under Glyph of Swiftness. You're right about time though.

Quote:

I seriously doubt an Assassin primary running Cry of Pain with Mindbender is superior to a Mesmer primary running Cry of Pain. What advantage does the Assassin have anyway? Well he can raise his Deadly Arts to 14-16, but the Mesmer can raise Inspiration Magic and use Auspicious Incantation, while keeping Deadly Arts at 12. You could press an argument for Assassin primary if you assume Mindbender to always be active, but of course you cannot, and keeping Mindbender active as often as possible extracts a cost that goes directly into your damage output.

Never compared Assassins to Mesmers in capability; Assacasters aren't really very efficient at all, at least now. Well, unless you've got Poison all over a mob and you're using SoTS.

Quote:

Will you say Mesmer primaries have at least one use in PvE now?

Best Assassins' Promise Cryer? I never said otherwise.

Bobby2 · Nov 14, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Best Assassins' Promise Cryer?

This.

/12chars

Jeydra · Nov 14, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Best Assassins' Promise Cryer? I never said otherwise.

You said Mesmers have absolutely no use in PvE.

maxxfury · Nov 15, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

What would be The optimal Ap cop bar?

I have one i run, which is quite simple and i guess a little dull

But its nice and fast and doesnt take a whole lot of prep before casting(ie no echo's)

[Assassins Promise][ebon vanguard assassin support] or [You Move Like a Dwarf][Fragility][cry of pain][finish him][ether signet][leech signet][open]

or

[Assassins Promise][ebon vanguard assassin support] or [You Move Like a Dwarf][Fragility][cry of pain][arcane echo][auspicious incantation][finish him][open]

Which obviously is the echo version i run..

Avarre · Nov 15, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

So, the Guru think-tank has finally, after 3 years, come to the conclusion that the only way to make Mesmers comparable in PvE is... to turn them into fast-cast nukers.

YEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Div · Nov 15, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

So, the Guru think-tank has finally, after 3 years, come to the conclusion that the only way to make Mesmers comparable in PvE is... to turn them into fast-cast nukers.

YEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!

People aren't as brilliant as you, ok?

Katari · Nov 16, 2008, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Here's the build I used while vanquishing on my mesmer.
[build=OQZDAowjSuN2gaAcAIDyl5iEBA]
None of the fail that is Sig of Illusions, none of the fragility that is Assassin's Promise, and it isn't a Me/E fastcast ele.

SaDuFam · Nov 17, 2008, 05:36 AM // 05:36

My heros did all the vanquishing work. My mesmer with Sig of Illusions just gave commands and negate or destroy key damge opponents. Sig of Illusion is fun and never fails. What's wrong with Me/E who can do shutdowns and load timely FC AOE where the situation is just right. AOE can be used disperse foes as a usefull tactic to distract their concerted attack on you or one of your heros.

It is sad that even mesmers are trying to constrain themsleve a limited role and therefore restricting their effectiveness. FC mesmers can wipe a group out before an ele can finish casting the first spell and also energy is never a problem in PvE.

lustnlood · Nov 17, 2008, 11:27 AM // 11:27

ok so, from all that has been said all throughout the history of mesmer in pve one can conclude that there are specific skills that WILL offer efficiency, overbearing power and speed all throughout any given run. These are the following:

Visions of Regret
Backfire
Empathy
Cry of Pain
Pain inverter

And sometimes: Necrosis

These basically constitute more damage and domination any monk could bear or 2 or 3 for that matter.

Interrupts... who the f*** needs interrupts... its pve ... unless vs a boss which deals 900 dmg in 1 blow to all party members or res sigs you do not need interrupts... however i always equip a cry of frustration just in case.

Stop victimising mesmers dudes.. they are are the only profession where one should be scared to face.... i see a mesmer.. well i know my first target... if you dont think that way then start... mesmers are the scourge of pve if used with a brain

Katari · Nov 17, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lustnlood

Interrupts... who the f*** needs interrupts... its pve ... unless vs a boss which deals 900 dmg in 1 blow to all party members or res sigs you do not need interrupts... however i always equip a cry of frustration just in case.

It's not just that--thanks to the fast casting that monsters get in hard mode, unless you have good reflexes and a low ping you won't be interrupting what would normally be a 1s cast. Pain Inverter blows up most of the mobs you'd care anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaDuFam

My heroes did all the vanquishing work. My mesmer with Sig of Illusions just gave commands...

Fast cast Me/E "nuker" eles suffer from the same problems that real eles suffer from in hard mode--armor levels are so high that they end up doing poor damage--without the benefit of a real elite. So sure, you can go fast casting Me/E with the intent of laying maelstroms and firestorms to disrupt in scatter, but I personally like to contribute more than that to a team.

upier · Nov 17, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

It's not just that--thanks to the fast casting that monsters get in hard mode, unless you have good reflexes and a low ping you won't be interrupting what would normally be a 1s cast.

Which is why I "LOVE" HM so much!
Especially in light of things like this:

Quote:

Dev Updates:
April 07:
1. Mark of Subversion was changed to match the duration of Diversion, Shame, Mistrust, and Guilt, which keeps these one-time Hexes consistent with one another. Reckless Haste had its cost increased, and Price of Failure received a duration decrease to make it more difficult to keep these powerful Hexes on a large number of people.
2. The Diversion/Mantra of Recovery combination was proving to be slightly overpowered, so we changed Diversion's recharge time to compensate. One-time effect Hexes such as Shame, Mistrust, and Guilt have similar issues, so their duration has been changed to a flat 6 seconds. Spirit of Failure received an increase to its recharge time and a decrease to its Energy gain, making it a little more difficult and less rewarding to spread this Hex everywhere.

August 07
1. The theme behind the Mesmer changes is to decrease the power of long-lasting "passive" Hexes. Decreasing the duration of Panic and Spirit Shackles and increasing the Energy cost of Spirit of Failure should make Mesmer builds more active and Energy-bound.
2. The Necromancer's "fire and forget" anti-melee Hexes have been an increasing source of passive defense that we would like to move away from. The longer-lasting shut-down Hexes (Faintheartedness, Price of Failure, Reckless Haste, Shadow of Fear, and Meekness) were scaled down to make them more active or to further strain resources.
3. Aegis received a rework this month, reducing its range from party to earshot (1/5 of the original range) to address the passive nature of "Aegis Chaining." To compensate, the more active Skill, Guardian, received a boost to both duration and block chance. Combined with effective Energy management, Shield of Regeneration's prior reduction to .25 second cast time has made it popular in 4v4 play, but we'd like to see a bit more diversity.

And then comes out HM - and it COMPLETELY negates EVERYTHING they've tried to sell us regarding what they consider to be good for the game. I mean let's make all the skills recharge and activate twice as fast so that active counters become completely worthless compared to passive ones!

Good job!