Curse

draxynnic · Oct 30, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Referring, of course, to this thread

Largely, the Mesmer does have the problem of 'anything I can do, someone else can do better'. However, one exception I've found is using Assassin's Promise and Arcane Echo to spam out PvE-only spells such as CoP and EVAS - that particular combination does actually require Me/A and A/Me, and I think the extra energy and FC of the Mesmer helps more than Critical Strikes does for the Assassin.

My standard build is "Finish Him!", Assassin's Promise, Auspicious Incantation, Arcane Echo, Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support, Cry of Pain, and two feeder hexes of your choice (generally, a cheap one for general use and an expensive one for use with AI - I like Fragility for its synergy with "Finish Him!" and Conjure Nightmare for the extra pressure to help put a target under 50% if it proves unexpectantly resilient and/or your allies are beating on the wrong target).

With this, I've been vanquishing parts of Elona and H/H Tombs (averaging about an hour and a half a run, although the last was a while ago), with at least Gwen (VoR and interrupts, including CoF) and often Norgu (Tease, Clumsiness/WI, Frustration and other interrupts) as well for support - having other Mesmers around gives the chance of not needing to lay a feeder hex myself, adding more area-of-effect armour-ignoring damage, and making it that much harder for the enemy to get off something nasty before dying horribly.

Pwny Ride · Oct 30, 2008, 04:41 AM // 04:41

So, you made a new thread linked to an old closed (for a very good reason) thread, just to tell everyone what you've been doing in PvE.

ALF71BE · Oct 30, 2008, 04:48 AM // 04:48

My standard build is blankx8 and an extremely awesome armor.

If I'm going serious I take VoR and Backfire to see the 200's and laugh.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 30, 2008, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Mesmers are very good in PvE imo. Now rangers can do better with interrupting casters. Necros can do better anti-melee hexes. Warrior and Rangers can do well Conditioners. However, only mesmers can do all of what mesmers do and also have e-denial/condition spreaders.

People "hate on mesmers" for no real reason. I won't both to read the thread you linked, just because I really don't care for what it says. Also, you're build, I dislike. That's because 1) I dislike using EN PvE skills, and Ineptitude + Fragility+other condition spells ftw.

TheDarkshineKnight · Oct 30, 2008, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Mesmers are very good in PvE imo. Now rangers can do better with interrupting casters. Necros can do better anti-melee hexes. Warrior and Rangers can do well Conditioners. However, only mesmers can do all of what mesmers do and also have e-denial/condition spreaders.

People "hate on mesmers" for no real reason. I won't both to read the thread you linked, just because I really don't care for what it says. Also, you're build, I dislike. That's because 1) I dislike using EN PvE skills, and Ineptitude + Fragility+other condition spells ftw.

We don't hate on Mesmers for no reason. We hate on them because all of the evidence points to them being worthless as a primary in PvE. My favorite class, Ritualist, falls into this same category. Now, Mesmer is a great secondary; I won't deny that. However, it's a terrible primary since Fast Casting is so crappy in PvE.

Anyhoo, I'm fairly certain that the only build that could be decent with a Mesmer primary is Me/A. Otherwise, a different primary is always better; namely, Necromancer since Soul Reaping is completely and utterly overpowered.

lustnlood · Oct 30, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

i strongly believe that you are underestiating mesmers quite a lot. i usuallly run the following build and its decently good

auspicious incantation - arcane echo - ebon sin thing - assassins's promis - clumsiness/wandering eye/ sympathetic/anscestral - pain inverter - shrinking armor - cry of pain.... i get decent dmg.

mesmers are far from being overpowered in pve - try the VoR and backfire and pain inverter and empathy combo.. i herd its awsomeness

jiggles · Oct 30, 2008, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Now rangers can do better with interrupting casters.

Mesmers, have fast casting which makes their interupts instantaneous pretty much.
Rangers have a bow, with a flight time, the arrows are bloackable cant be shot through walls and are dodgeable.

Explain how a ranger is better at interupting please

romeus petrus · Oct 30, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Mesmers don't need to prove themselves in PvE any more. They are clearly dominating most HM PvE and elite areas, it just took a while for your average joe gamer to grasp their awesomeness.

TheDarkshineKnight · Oct 30, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiggles

Mesmers, have fast casting which makes their interupts instantaneous pretty much.
Rangers have a bow, with a flight time, the arrows are bloackable cant be shot through walls and are dodgeable.

Explain how a ranger is better at interupting please

It's not just about being able to interrupt; Rangers can deal good damage as well. In the magical land of Hard Mode, physical damage dealers reign supreme, and as such, other the Cry of Pain, trying to kill enemies using spells is inefficient and inferior. All the Mesmer can do is interrupt. The Ranger can interrupt and deal great damage. Interrupt and damage > interrupt.

A.K. · Oct 30, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

I never answer threads, but when I read "anything I can do, someone can do better", I instantly thought of Signet of Illusion...... Me/E is hilarious with it since u need 0 attribute points for the ele and still come out with 16 att. point dmg. For those people who think mesmers are a weak primary, please try SoI, and please remember to forget the homo-sexual looking armor, not our fault.

SkekSister · Oct 30, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Mesmers don't need to prove themselves in PvE any more. They are clearly dominating most HM PvE and elite areas, it just took a while for your average joe gamer to grasp their awesomeness.

Quoted for truth. Been vanquishing Tyria with my Mesmer buddy and its a breeze. Used to have trouble with groups with several healers but his Mes just screws them royally. We've not failed on a single area thus far.

Gwmaster · Oct 30, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Eh, i always take a Mesmer HERO with interrupts/empathy/visions of regret..and it helps alot in hm dungeons etc..add a ss necro and you can scratch your balls while playing with your tongue..its as easy as that, dont know why all the hate.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.K.

I never answer threads, but when I read "anything I can do, someone can do better", I instantly thought of Signet of Illusion...... Me/E is hilarious with it since u need 0 attribute points for the ele and still come out with 16 att. point dmg. For those people who think mesmers are a weak primary, please try SoI, and please remember to forget the homo-sexual looking armor, not our fault.

SoI is a horrible skill. You're basically doing something an Elementalist can do better. Let's have a little run through of useful Elementalist skills.

Deep Freeze - This requires no attribution to be effective.
Maelstrom - Same as above.
Eruption - Same as above.
Ward Against Melee - Worth speccing into.
Blurred Vision - Worth speccing into.
Dragons' Stomp / Earthquake - No attribution needed.
Churning Earth - No attribution needed.
PvE skills - The little extra damage doesn't compare to the usage of Assassins' Promise, sorry.

As you can see, there are only two skills worth speccing into - the rest are elites, so SoI can't manipulate them unless you take an Elementalist. You can just as easily run an Elementalist and dual spec. Oh, and the only caster skill in this game which deals substantial damage is CoP.

The stuff about Mesmers is illustrated in that thread, but considering this isn't actually an argument about the efficiency of Mesmers in PvE, I won't continue at all.

PvE is easy anyway, the team build you're using will just make the impact on things through speed, and you only need a few defenses. If you want to play a Mesmer, do it, it's your choice, but be aware of the negatives and positives with whatever you're doing. Oh, and whatever profession you use doesn't matter with CoP.

Daesu · Oct 30, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

SoI is a horrible skill. You're basically doing something an Elementalist can do better. Let's have a little run through of useful Elementalist skills.

Deep Freeze - This requires no attribution to be effective.
Maelstrom - Same as above.
Eruption - Same as above.
Ward Against Melee - Worth speccing into.
Blurred Vision - Worth speccing into.
Dragons' Stomp / Earthquake - No attribution needed.
Churning Earth - No attribution needed.
PvE skills - The little extra damage doesn't compare to the usage of Assassins' Promise, sorry.

As you can see, there are only two skills worth speccing into - the rest are elites, so SoI can't manipulate them unless you take an Elementalist. You can just as easily run an Elementalist and dual spec. Oh, and the only caster skill in this game which deals substantial damage is CoP.

Actually you can always use Assassin's Promise with SoI even with elementalist skills, as a primary mesmer, through Arcane Mimicry.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

But even then, you're devoting another skill slot to that. If you didn't catch the beginning of my post; most of the Elementalist skills either need no attribution or can be hybridised on an actual Elementalist while keeping the elite slot.

Jeydra · Oct 30, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

I was going to wait 2 weeks and post as I work through a trying time in real life, but looks like now ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkshineKnight

We don't hate on Mesmers for no reason. We hate on them because all of the evidence points to them being worthless as a primary in PvE. My favorite class, Ritualist, falls into this same category. Now, Mesmer is a great secondary; I won't deny that. However, it's a terrible primary since Fast Casting is so crappy in PvE.

Anyhoo, I'm fairly certain that the only build that could be decent with a Mesmer primary is Me/A. Otherwise, a different primary is always better; namely, Necromancer since Soul Reaping is completely and utterly overpowered.

Don't kid yourself. Look at what you've written two threads ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkshineKnight

Please, enlighten me then. What can Mesmers do that another class can't do better in PvE? You won't be able to come up with a valid answer, because the answer is nothing, other than some silly farming and running builds. Sure, in PvP, Mesmer's are great, but, this isn't PvP.

You have claimed that regardless of build it is always possible to exhibit a better, more effective build using a different primary class given the assumptions that it is PvE, it is not a farming build and it is not a running build. Therefore, to defend your statement, you need to come up with a build using a different primary class that is more effective than the one the thread starter posted. If you are able to do so, then in the interest of concreteness, please post a build. If you are unable to do so, then that resolves your original post as an exaggeration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The stuff about Mesmers is illustrated in that thread, but considering this isn't actually an argument about the efficiency of Mesmers in PvE, I won't continue at all.

You too - look at what you've written two threads ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Bring up absolutely anything in the support of a Mesmer primary in PvE; I'll be glad to argue against that, but please god if you're going to continue this take it to the Mesmer forum where it belongs. Oh, and PvE doesn't take skill. If enemies weren't so predictable and actually had decent skill bars, intelligence on the mechanics and certain aspects of positioning, PvE would possibly become more interesting.

You have claimed that if someone posts in the Mesmer subforum and assumes PvE, then you will be happy to argue for the complete uselessness of Mesmer primaries. The thread starter has done exactly that. Therefore you should be able to exhibit a build that mimics that the thread starter posted, but is more effective and not a Mesmer primary. If you are able to do so, then in the interest of concreteness, please post a build. If you are unable to do so, then that resolves your original post as an exaggeration.

If this thread were mine, I would pursue these two points mercilessly because of the blanket statements made in them. But I'm not, and I don't know what the thread starter intends with this thread, so I won't press it. I'll just make this point here and if you choose to ignore it, that's fine.

EDIT: @below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Instead of this theorycrafting that's going to get torn apart, why don't you post specific builds for each of the examples? It's easier to compare skillbar effectiveness than try to talk about something this abstract. Closing before this becomes a flamefest. If you want to continue the debate, post actual builds in a new thread.

I see a build in the first post, so I see no problem either with going on this tack. But hey, I did say that if you don't want to pursue it it's fine with me.

*****

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If you want to play a Mesmer, do it, it's your choice, but be aware of the negatives and positives with whatever you're doing. Oh, and whatever profession you use doesn't matter with CoP.

Sure it does. Necromancers get more energy to use CoP with thanks to Soul Reaping. Mesmers get to use Assassin's Promise with CoP, as well as have an easier time getting off the Mesmer hex (especially if using Ether Nightmare). Elementalists can act as the carrier of an energy-management elite for the other Cryers to Arcane Mimicry, as well as sport a larger energy pool for spamming CoP. CoP is a great equalizer the same way Ursan was, but just like Ursan there are small differences between different professions using it.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You too - look at what you've written two threads ago.

You have claimed that if someone posts in the Mesmer subforum and assumes PvE, then you will be happy to argue for the complete uselessness of Mesmer primaries. The thread starter has done exactly that. Therefore you should be able to exhibit a build that mimics that the thread starter posted, but is more effective and not a Mesmer primary. If you are able to do so, then in the interest of concreteness, please post a build. If you are unable to do so, then that resolves your original post as an exaggeration.

Oh sorry, what part of the "Mesmer Efficiency Thread" being closed didn't you understand? It was closed for a reason, and that reason was because the discussion was simply at a void on your side and a possible flame war. If you really want to continue this argument, ask Divine to reopen your thread again, because what the mods do and feel about a thread has nothing to do with me; I'd rather put the discussion to an end if it's been closed in another thread.

Quote:

Sure it does. Necromancers get more energy to use CoP with thanks to Soul Reaping. Mesmers get to use Assassin's Promise with CoP, as well as have an easier time getting off the Mesmer hex (especially if using Ether Nightmare). Elementalists can act as the carrier of an energy-management elite for the other Cryers to Arcane Mimicry, as well as sport a larger energy pool for spamming CoP. CoP is a great equalizer the same way Ursan was, but just like Ursan there are small differences between different professions using it.

Ether Nightmare is a terrible skill, even moreso in a Cryway group. Reason? You're spiking, what good will degen do? Save a PvE slot and use a cheaper, more spammable bitch hex anyway. It will only save time in the long run. And hey, there's even a thread based on Ether Nightmare.

Jeydra · Oct 30, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Ether Nightmare is a terrible skill, even moreso in a Cryway group. Reason? You're spiking, what good will degen do? Save a PvE slot and use a cheaper, more spammable bitch hex anyway. It will only save time in the long run. And hey, there's even a thread based on Ether Nightmare.

Don't leave the original point. There's a difference between the different professions even with CoP.

MisterT69 · Oct 31, 2008, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Who the hell cares about ether nightmare or bitch hexes? VoR has been brought into the limelight with its buff and it makes most dungeons a breeze in HM. Ever thrown VoR/backfire on a flowstone or any ele in HM? watch em flare themselves to death. Monks...can't even outheal you're 230 dmg VoR/backfire combo (assuming 15 Domination) so as for total destruction, they got it. No other prof can deal 230 dmg every time a caster uses a spell, or 145 dmg every time a melee guy uses an attack (empathy+VoR combo)

So if you're looking for outright power both in HM and NM, the mes' got it.

Tyla · Oct 31, 2008, 01:11 AM // 01:11

The only problem with that is that it's not maintainable, which could be a problem with Cryway. Also, CoP + VoR is quite contradicting; you interrupt a skill with CoP. SS also outdoes it being in a more accessable skill line and counting on everything; not all enemies in PvE cast 100% of the time.