Curse

Arkantos · Dec 08, 2008, 11:55 PM // 23:55

No, I don't like it. I think a mesmer being able to do 100 aoe damage every 12 seconds is absolutely retarded.

moriz · Dec 09, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

cry of pain should only do moderate damage against hexed foe, but should do huge damage if you actually managed to interrupt something.

for example:

interrupt target foe. if you use this skill against a foe affected by a mesmer hex, you deal 30...50 damage to that foe and all foes in the area. if you interrupt target foe's spell, you deal 80...150 damage to that foe and all foes in the area.

Arkantos · Dec 09, 2008, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

cry of pain should only do moderate damage against hexed foe, but should do huge damage if you actually managed to interrupt something.

for example:

interrupt target foe. if you use this skill against a foe affected by a mesmer hex, you deal 30...50 damage to that foe and all foes in the area. if you interrupt target foe's spell, you deal 80...150 damage to that foe and all foes in the area.

Or change it to 30...70 damage if they interrupt a foe, 0 if they don't.

The S H A D O W · Dec 09, 2008, 03:02 AM // 03:02

I Favor CoP for allowing me to play different professions while farmings,, but then again CoP farms have ruined the economy( VSF, DoA, Etc.) it made everything more easier like Ursan before nerf...

fenix · Dec 09, 2008, 03:03 AM // 03:03

CoP is stupid because Mesmers were never meant to do a billion damage, especially not this easily. As Arkantos said, there should be reduced damage if it is an interrupt, and zero if the interrupt is missed.

Boneyard Spleeneater · Jan 04, 2009, 09:37 AM // 09:37

So what everyone is saying is that now that Mesmers are no longer the red-headed step-child that everyone can pick on and can actually do a little damage, they are no good.

How typical. The bullies are getting bullied themselves, and they don't like it.

Seriously though; I have been using CoP for a while now (with Ether nightmare) as a way to get a quick spike in and put a hurt on the mob before they scatter. I see there are some more efficient builds than the one I have made, but I am also set up for casters, melee, mobs, and singletons. I can interrupt, degen, spike, and shutdown.

I think the main problem with Mesmers (my first and main toon is a mes) is that all the cool stuff you can do with them often doesn't have the desired effect in PvE. If you cast Backfire in PvP, the recipient will often kite until it runs out (assuming they can't remove it). In PvE, they cast right through it. So many of the mesmers skills that technically are made to stop a behavior (by punishing it) end up working differently because the AI is stupid.

CoP is one skill that allows me to do some damage, and is meant to do some damage. If I am tired of trying to micromanage my heroes, and would like to go in and spike some critters once in a while, then please indulge me. As was stated earlier, in HM the spells come too fast to interrupt, so casting on one guy and hoping to interrupt the mob is the best I can hope for. If I do 100 pts in the process, then bully for me.

Besides, everyone assumes that mesmers can't do damage. Just because they are slippery little bastiches doesn't mean they can't have a Hail Mary punch!

Arkantos · Jan 04, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

So what everyone is saying is that now that Mesmers are no longer the red-headed step-child that everyone can pick on and can actually do a little damage, they are no good.

How typical. The bullies are getting bullied themselves, and they don't like it.

Mesmers were effective in PvE before CoP, but the majority of players failed to notice. That's typical.

Quote:

CoP is one skill that allows me to do some damage, and is meant to do some damage. If I am tired of trying to micromanage my heroes, and would like to go in and spike some critters once in a while, then please indulge me. As was stated earlier, in HM the spells come too fast to interrupt, so casting on one guy and hoping to interrupt the mob is the best I can hope for. If I do 100 pts in the process, the bully for me.

Mesmers weren't designed to do big AoE damage, and they shouldn't. If CoP remains the same, then I want my warrior to be able to effectively prot itself and others. If I am tired of trying to micromanage my monk heroes, I want to be able to prot my party while doing damage. I'd also like my elementalist to have a pro interrupt skill. They weren't meant to be interrupters, but who cares about class design now, right?

Quote:

Besides, everyone assumes that mesmers can't do damage. Just because they are slippery little bastiches doesn't mean they can't have a Hail Mary punch!

They can do damage, without CoP. Just because everyone assumes they can't do damage doesn't mean it's right.

Tyla · Jan 04, 2009, 09:47 AM // 09:47

The problem with Mesmers is that they can only accomplish one task more efficiently than the other professions - Assassins' Promise Cryer, and even then having a higher Deadly Arts comes out for more energy management, freeing skill slots and allowing something extra for damage.

I don't disagree that Cry of Pain is a powerful skill, but I agree that it should be nerfed to a point where it isn't absolutely gobsmack incredible for such a low skill requirement, and I guess you could say the same for Discord and certain skills too. There is already a thread on Cry of Pain, and I agree with making Cry of Pain something special to Mesmers - what "TNTF!" is to Paragons, but not making it "Hit this skill when X task is fulfilled, then win!". The damage should be toned down for a start anyway.

MegaVolti · Jan 04, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Or change it to 30...70 damage if they interrupt a foe, 0 if they don't.

And then we rename it to [[Cry of Frustration]. Oh wait ...

Improvavel · Jan 04, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I don't disagree that Cry of Pain is a powerful skill, but I agree that it should be nerfed to a point where it isn't absolutely gobsmack incredible for such a low skill requirement, and I guess you could say the same for Discord and certain skills too.

Human player necros won't even consider discord. Discord is used cause heroes are dumb and dumber, spamming is the only thing they can do and discord is a very nice skill to spam. CoP and discord arent in the same league.

CoP is the most powerful skill in the game atm. Nothing else can kill as fast.

Arkantos · Jan 04, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

And then we rename it to [[Cry of Frustration]. Oh wait ...

Cry of Pain was meant to be a more powerful Cry of Frustration, and even with my suggestion it would remain stronger. The point of your post was..?

Tyla · Jan 04, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Human player necros won't even consider discord. Discord is used cause heroes are dumb and dumber, spamming is the only thing they can do and discord is a very nice skill to spam. CoP and discord arent in the same league.

CoP is the most powerful skill in the game atm. Nothing else can kill as fast.

Human players won't consider Discord, but my point is it's a simple "HIT THIS!" skill when you get the condition achieved.

Improvavel · Jan 04, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Human players won't consider Discord, but my point is it's a simple "HIT THIS!" skill when you get the condition achieved.

Which pretty much describe everything in the game, except most things need no conditions.

This game skill is more about having builds that are resource efficient and, if possible, work well together and boost each other. The second part of the game is pulling good and choosing which targets go down first.

Any skill that doesn't care about the target is most likely an overpowered skill.

Daesu · Jan 04, 2009, 07:25 PM // 19:25

CoP is overpowered, but so are many other PvE skills. The problem with CoP is, it gets even MORE overpowered in a cryway team but if you are only using it in a H/H setting then it is ok.

Even if you dont bring CoP, you can always use the overpowered AP/PvE skills configuration with discordway heroes:

[Assassin's Promise]["You Move like a Dwarf!"][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support]["Finish Him!"]

That still kills very fast in HM. Even faster for a necro than a mesmer because of soul reaping. You can just max soul reaping and deadly arts, pump the rest of the attribute points to curse with some utility skills like rend enchantments, etc. My necro doesn't use/need CoP but she still kills faster than my CoP mesmer outside of a cryway team.

My necro kills so fast that she usually doesn't have the time to cast other skills besides these before the target falls flat on its face. So is my necro playing as a necro? I doubt it, but it works well.

MisterT69 · Jan 04, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Cry of Pain was meant to be a more powerful Cry of Frustration, and even with my suggestion it would remain stronger. The point of your post was..?

Remove the hex requirement for CoP's damage and increase dmg to 100...150 for the lulz?

Again this probably goes back to Ursan. After we killed the bear, people found an ever more l33t skill to use to destroy anything in HM (CoP). If CoP is nerfed, I guarantee an even more imba way of beating HM will be discovered. No one's trying to figure it out atm because CoP is so effective that there is no point in looking for a better way.

Chthon · Jan 04, 2009, 09:08 PM // 21:08

1. I somewhat regret being converted into a "boring" nuker, but (a) I'd rather be a boring nuker than a completely useless class, and (b) at least the complexity of AP-AE-CoP makes it interesting for a nuker build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The problem with Mesmers is that they can only accomplish one task more efficiently than the other professions - Assassins' Promise Cryer, and even then having a higher Deadly Arts comes out for more energy management, freeing skill slots and allowing something extra for damage.

I don't disagree that Cry of Pain is a powerful skill, but I agree that it should be nerfed to a point where it isn't absolutely gobsmack incredible for such a low skill requirement, and I guess you could say the same for Discord and certain skills too. There is already a thread on Cry of Pain, and I agree with making Cry of Pain something special to Mesmers - what "TNTF!" is to Paragons, but not making it "Hit this skill when X task is fulfilled, then win!". The damage should be toned down for a start anyway.

2. Actually, I've found that they can also blind and snare better than anything else too. (See second build here.)

3. If you ant to make CoP a "mesmers-only" skill, add "50% chance of failure with fast casting 4 or less."

4. If you want to kill cryway teams and make it a solo-user skill, change it to "Interrupt target foe's skill and remove one mesmer hex. If a hex was removed, that foe and all foes in the area take 65...93 damage." (Essentially a beefed-up shatter delusions.)

Boneyard Spleeneater · Jan 05, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Well, lets look at it this way...

Cry of Pain is an interrupt, much like cry of frustration (mass interrupt, although the description is only for damage to other foes, not interrupt), except that to do the damage, there is a condition that must be met (foe must be hexed, and with a mesmer hex no less).

So in order to do this mass amount of damage, you have to first cast a specific class of hex on them before casting this interrupt on them, and then hope they are grouped close enough together that the damage is spread among all the critters.

First of all, I think you are relying on too many skills to make this a worthwhile chain. Anything that takes more than a couple key-presses is going to fail as often as not.

Second, with all the conditions on it, I think it fits just fine into the Mes' arsenal. Just because the mes isn't always a spiker doesn't mean a mes CAN'T be a spiker.

I have a 55 mes build for farming, which I'm pretty sure doesn't fit in the description in the manual. I also use my mes for farming raptors (reversed Me/E Shiver Armor build). So the fact is if the designers are trying to make me play the game according to their whims, then they didn't design the game that well. I should be able to play the game how I think is the most fun. After all, I am the customer.

CoP allows the Mes to have a native AoE spike skill (along with Energy Surge), so that if that is the way you want to play your mesmer, that is how you can play it. It is no more or less 'correct' than anyone elses.

It is a game folks. Just play it and have fun. If you don't want to use CoP, don't.

Daesu · Jan 05, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. I somewhat regret being converted into a "boring" nuker, but (a) I'd rather be a boring nuker than a completely useless class, and (b) at least the complexity of AP-AE-CoP makes it interesting for a nuker build.

2. Actually, I've found that they can also blind and snare better than anything else too. (See second build here.)

3. If you ant to make CoP a "mesmers-only" skill, add "50% chance of failure with fast casting 4 or less."

4. If you want to kill cryway teams and make it a solo-user skill, change it to "Interrupt target foe's skill and remove one mesmer hex. If a hex was removed, that foe and all foes in the area take 65...93 damage." (Essentially a beefed-up shatter delusions.)

I agree with your suggestions.

AP/CoP on a mesmer is not stronger than AP/(other overpowered PvE skills) on a necro since unlike the necro, mesmers still need to cast energy management skills and a supporting mesmer hex. This is in the context of H/H.

In the context of cryway, should ANet decides to nerf that team build, they can implement suggestion 4 above which would make it more like an aoe [[Shatter Delusions], since most people dont use the interrupt ability of CoP anyway.

Suggestion 3 would also be nice. It doesn't nerf cryway directly but that would make primary mesmers more popular for PUGs.

kostolomac · Jan 05, 2009, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. If you ant to make CoP a "mesmers-only" skill, add "50% chance of failure with fast casting 4 or less."

4. If you want to kill cryway teams and make it a solo-user skill, change it to "Interrupt target foe's skill and remove one mesmer hex. If a hex was removed, that foe and all foes in the area take 65...93 damage." (Essentially a beefed-up shatter delusions.)

I agree with both of these points.

smilingscar · Jan 06, 2009, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. If you ant to make CoP a "mesmers-only" skill, add "50% chance of failure with fast casting 4 or less."

4. If you want to kill cryway teams and make it a solo-user skill, change it to "Interrupt target foe's skill and remove one mesmer hex. If a hex was removed, that foe and all foes in the area take 65...93 damage." (Essentially a beefed-up shatter delusions.)

I definitely agree with point 3. As for 4, not sure yet but it's the best I've seen suggested thus far as far as balance. My only problem is that it would suck for a domination mesmer. Yes, they could use a cheap hex like Wastrel's Worry or Mind Wrack, but not only would they lack the benefits of [Phantom Pain] or [shrinking armor], but they would leave mesmers with the same plight...bringing cheap, useless hexes to serve CoP.

How to fix that? Not sure. Perhaps a clause that recharges the removed hex. But even then, the idea for shatter delusions is for the hex to last nearly its full duration and then to get some nearly free damage. Hexes don't generally last their full duration in pve except for ones like [guilt] where removing it seems inefficient.

Perhaps we need to based the effects of CoP on mesmer attributes other than Fast Casting and give multiple effects. Example:

Hex Spell: Target foe and all foes in the area are interrupted. Each foes' skills are disabled for one second for every 4...2(1?) ranks of Domination Magic. Each foe attacks and uses skills 4...8% slower for each rank of Illusion magic for 8...15 seconds. For one second for every rank of Inspiration magic, each foe suffers from deep wound and one additional random condition for every five ranks of Inspiration magic.

Loooongest player skill description in game. But this skill would be a jack of all trades to fit your build. For dom mesmers, it provides an AoE Power Block with some damage from deep wound/conditions if they spec inspiration or more shutdown if they spec Illusion. Illusion users become master debuffers and Inspiration becomes PvE viable as a condition master.

It looks overpowered at first, but to do everything decently you'd have to spec a lot into each attribute, effectively giving up your secondary or gimping your build. That's why I left out effects for fast casting, as mesmers generally put points into it automatically (I would, however, concede to a failure percent at 4 ranks or less). I think I balanced it to be good enough for speccing just one attribute line, but not overpowered if you have 10-8 or below in other attributes.

Even if you think this is ridiculously OP, I think splitting the effects per attribute is the best and most mesmery way to approach CoP. I'll be honest, I considered more powerful effects for each attribute with a chance of failure below 10 ranks, but didn't want to bother wording it that way

.