Curse

Tyla · Feb 23, 2009, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

ppl overlook mes because they cant play em.

Not really. There are valid reasons as to why Mesmers are unfavourable compared to other classes in PvE.

Quote:

if you suck with a certain class ur not gonna have fun with it.

That's not the same for everyone. For some, being good at something is only a bonus. If you don't take pride in practice, you're going to get nowhere all the time unless you're that dull.

Quote:

and i also think mes elites are crap, majority of em at least.

I agree somewhat.

riktw · Feb 23, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

well a lot of mesmer elite are bad, but they are fun to play.
and well, [Visions of regret] + [Cry of Pain] + [arcane echo] is really nice in PvE

zhnord · Feb 25, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

I don't understand how people can still think that Mesmers are bad in PvE. Considering that the AP(-AE)-CoP Build has been out there for a while now. And also that Discordway is one of the best - if not the best - herosetup for vanquishing or anything else, and people know this.
As we all know, Discordway works best with Assassin's Promise and PvE skills. Now, Cry of Pain is the best damage skill in the game, i think we all know this as well. So we can say that - at least for the Discordway setup - the best classes are Assassin (for AP) and Mesmer (for CoP). This leaves us with the Question A/Me or Me/A, which really isnt a question, is it?

I know, this is all referring to H/H'ing. But lets take a look at playing Mesmer in a group full of people:

- if playing with a tank:
If playing with a tank, CoP is even stronger. No wonder people are running around screaming "Cryer LFG Cryer LFG" in pretty much every high end PvE area of the game.

- if playing without a tank:
This is where the "oldschool"-Mesmer comes in. With stuff like Empathy (which has an amazingly high dps, as mentioned by others before), Backfire, maybe VoR. But also where the Mesmer isn't only responsible for damage, but also interrupts the most dangerous spells of enemy casters.

- if playing in a physicals team:
Well. Which other caster class is good in a physicals team? Necros for Orders, maybe Rits for weapons, but Splinter can be taken by a Orders Necro as well.
I agree, in a physicals team, the Mesmer doesn't shine.

Tyla · Feb 25, 2009, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhnord

I don't understand how people can still think that Mesmers are bad in PvE.

Compared to other options, inferior for the most part. This is not to say that Mesmers are bad, but that the other options are superior.

Quote:

- if playing without a tank:
This is where the "oldschool"-Mesmer comes in. With stuff like Empathy (which has an amazingly high dps, as mentioned by others before), Backfire, maybe VoR. But also where the Mesmer isn't only responsible for damage, but also interrupts the most dangerous spells of enemy casters.

Backfire, Empathy and VoR aren't very good skills the same reason SS isn't. You don't want enemies doing shit to you, you want to prevent that. That's why daze will help you more overall as opposed to slapping SS/VoR/Empathy/whatever shit on them.

faraaz · Feb 25, 2009, 08:18 PM // 20:18

[Clumsiness][Wandering Eye][Arcane Conundrum][Cry of Pain][Cry of Frustration][Lyssa's Aura][Power Drain][Psychic Distraction][Fevered Dreams][Accumulated Pain]

Mesmer? Useless? Lol...

zhnord · Feb 26, 2009, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Compared to other options, inferior for the most part. This is not to say that Mesmers are bad, but that the other options are superior.

To what opinions? To the A/Me opinion, i don't think so. And the "best" AP build has to have CoP in it, so there really is no other classes than Mesmer and Assassin to choose from.
Or name me a class with a build that works as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Backfire, Empathy and VoR aren't very good skills the same reason SS isn't. You don't want enemies doing shit to you, you want to prevent that. That's why daze will help you more overall as opposed to slapping SS/VoR/Empathy/whatever shit on them.

Well, a Mesmer is able to keep daze, blind and crippled up on an entire mob. I agree, a BHA Ranger keeps Daze up more comfortable, but having daze and cripple, too is a big advantage in my opinion.

Is there a build for Necros/Eles/whatever that is able to keep daze, cripple, blind up at all times? On an entire mob? I don't know and I'd be glad if you could show me one.

faraaz · Feb 26, 2009, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhnord

To what opinions? To the A/Me opinion, i don't think so. And the "best" AP build has to have CoP in it, so there really is no other classes than Mesmer and Assassin to choose from.
Or name me a class with a build that works as well.

Well, a Mesmer is able to keep daze, blind and crippled up on an entire mob. I agree, a BHA Ranger keeps Daze up more comfortable, but having daze and cripple, too is a big advantage in my opinion.

Is there a build for Necros/Eles/whatever that is able to keep daze, cripple, blind up at all times? On an entire mob? I don't know and I'd be glad if you could show me one.

I can't believe I'm saying this but I kinda agree with Tyla (barf!). A good player prevents damage by blowing stuff up before it can say omgnonoonoono, he doesnt just eat it and hope to do more damage in return. That stuff's for NM.

As for your point about being locked in to Me/A or A/Me, why is that a problem? If you want an optimum cry build and you have one readily available, complaining about being locked in to that one combination is silly imo. If you want to indulge in a little byob, by all means go ahead, but then complaining that mesmers are weak is stupid.

zhnord · Feb 26, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

I can't believe I'm saying this but I kinda agree with Tyla (barf!). A good player prevents damage by blowing stuff up before it can say omgnonoonoono, he doesnt just eat it and hope to do more damage in return. That stuff's for NM.

As for your point about being locked in to Me/A or A/Me, why is that a problem? If you want an optimum cry build and you have one readily available, complaining about being locked in to that one combination is silly imo. If you want to indulge in a little byob, by all means go ahead, but then complaining that mesmers are weak is stupid.

How am i complaining that i am locked to Assassin and Mesmer? All I'm saying is, that the Me/A class combination is the best for the Discordway Herosetup, there is no better class combination out of all other classes.

How is a AP Cryer not blowing stuff up befor it can say omgnonoonoono?!

The idea of daze being the uber condition came from you, i just said that mesmers are able to keep the 3 most powerful conditions of the game (pve) up on an entire mob to conter you're "empathy is bad"-argument in which you said that "good players" use daze or whatever.

And to add something into that Empathy discussion. How can a skill that does ~50dps be bad? Afaik does Empathy have a 2 sec cast, and lasts around 14 seconds? which leaves roughly 11 seconds to do other stuff, that just adds to the 50dps empathy does anyway. How is this skill bad?
And please remember, i was talking about a mesmer who brings empathy in a non-tank non-all-physicals team.

faraaz · Feb 26, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Do you have any idea how much damage a melee enemy in HM will do to you in 14 seconds?

Tyla · Feb 26, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhnord

To what opinions? To the A/Me opinion, i don't think so. And the "best" AP build has to have CoP in it, so there really is no other classes than Mesmer and Assassin to choose from.
Or name me a class with a build that works as well.

I mean options to dealing damage in general.

Quote:

Well, a Mesmer is able to keep daze, blind and crippled up on an entire mob. I agree, a BHA Ranger keeps Daze up more comfortable, but having daze and cripple, too is a big advantage in my opinion.

Is there a build for Necros/Eles/whatever that is able to keep daze, cripple, blind up at all times? On an entire mob? I don't know and I'd be glad if you could show me one.

Blind, I don't care, there are a lot of options to disabling melee. With casters, there are a lot less. Cripple, I don't care at all, because it will most probably be used for offensive purposes, and if it's used for offensive purposes, you shouldn't need it on for more than 3 seconds. Daze, meh, it's AoE for all professions with the PvE skill, and it shouldn't be needed for long at all.

Also, I wouldn't call the interruption skills that useful in PvE, because things will most probably be dazed, and they cast so fast it's not even worth using a skill slot on.

Quote:

How can a skill that does ~50dps be bad? Afaik does Empathy have a 2 sec cast, and lasts around 14 seconds? which leaves roughly 11 seconds to do other stuff, that just adds to the 50dps empathy does anyway. How is this skill bad?

Here's a tip: Stop absorbing damage and kill something. If it takes you 14 seconds to kill an enemy that hasn't got "loliremortals" health then I suggest you stop being a twit and deal some damage. Also, crippling something will hurt that damage output unless you're wasting that condition to get beaten on.

Wubbies · Feb 26, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Backfire, Empathy and VoR aren't very good skills the same reason SS isn't. You don't want enemies doing shit to you, you want to prevent that. That's why daze will help you more overall as opposed to slapping SS/VoR/Empathy/whatever shit on them.

not a fact but an opinion of yours.

any profession can beat any profession .. i play mesmer all the time and for example if im in ab and a sin is wailing on me vor+empathy i just type /sit and watch the sin kill self in 3 secs with double strikes.

mesmers are underated because most people dont know how to use them. meet a great mesmer and you will change your mind.

isnt vor and empathy a PREVENTION? i cant help it if a sin is stupid enuff to continue to wail away on me after i hex him. i good sin would of waited till hex came off and attack somone else. thus i prevented but cant control the sins action.

point is your wrong

try again?

Tyla · Feb 26, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wubbies

not a fact but an opinion of yours.

any profession can beat any profession .. i play mesmer all the time and for example if im in ab and a sin is wailing on me vor+empathy i just type /sit and watch the sin kill self in 3 secs with double strikes.

mesmers are underated because most people dont know how to use them. meet a great mesmer and you will change your mind.

isnt vor and empathy a PREVENTION? i cant help it if a sin is stupid enuff to continue to wail away on me after i hex him. i good sin would of waited till hex came off and attack somone else. thus i prevented but cant control the sins action.

point is your wrong

try again?

I can't help it if you don't realize we're talking about PvE here, and that the "prevention" mechanics of VoR and Empathy (it's smart to cast in it sometimes, it's a psychological skill more than anything) being effective in PvP don't reflect on PvE.

Point is that this is about PvE (if you haven't noticed enemies get killer buffs here!) and not PvP, try again.

Wubbies · Feb 26, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I can't help it if you don't realize we're talking about PvE here, and that the "prevention" mechanics of VoR and Empathy (it's smart to cast in it sometimes, it's a psychological skill more than anything) being effective in PvP don't reflect on PvE.

Point is that this is about PvE (if you haven't noticed enemies get killer buffs here!) and not PvP, try again.

so u think vor and empathy are not good skills to have in pve?
(if u havent noticed most elite areas look for mesmers with vor/cop) try again

im sure the only good skills are the ones u prefer and the only good builds are the ones u say are.

if u r complaining about enemies getting killer buffs in pve..pve is easy no need to qq

Try again.

AtomicMew · Feb 27, 2009, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Tyla, are you saying SS isn't good in PvE...?

_Nihilist_ · Feb 27, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Tyla, are you saying SS isn't good in PvE...?

What Tyla is saying, which happens to be falling on deaf ears, is that from a PvE standpoint skills like Backfire, Empathy, VoR, and SS are not optimal. Tyla has explained the reasoning behind this, which, again, has fallen on deaf ears.

I'm going to try to explain it again (and Tyla, if I make any complete bassackwards assumptions, feel free to correct my misunderstandings), maybe if I can say the same general thing in different words, it might get through.

Start by taking a look at what Tyla said in Post #24:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Backfire, Empathy and VoR aren't very good skills the same reason SS isn't. You don't want enemies doing shit to you, you want to prevent that. That's why daze will help you more overall as opposed to slapping SS/VoR/Empathy/whatever shit on them.

Backfire, Empathy, VoR, and SS all deal damage based on the hexed foe doing something. 'Kay?

If the hexed foe is doing something then you and your party members are suffering the consequences, whether it is getting attacked, hexed, nuked, whatever.

The point is that rather than using skills that require the enemy to beat the living hell out of you in order for them to trigger their damage, why aren't you using a proactive/aggressive stance and dealing damage and killing those enemies BEFORE they have a chance to get those nasty attacks and spells off?

Spells like these shine in PvP because they force the enemy to make a choice. As a human player, the choice ISN'T ALWAYS attack and cast through whatever hexes are stacked on you. But the AI will ALWAYS attack/cast through whatever nastiness you stick on them. ALWAYS. Whereas in a PvP setting, the player might choose to wait for hex removal if he/she is too far out from their backline. Forcing a skill to be used or not be used is infinitely more practical and useful in PvP. In PvE, all the skills designed to force the choice between "do it and the hex owns your face" vs. "don't do it and save your face" are neutered, and thus outclassed by direct brute force (direct spell damage or physicals knocking teeth out, take your pick). They are a control mechanism, and that control is why they are so powerful.

In PvE, sure, these skills do damage, but only if the hexed foe carries out the trigger action. In order for the damage to occur, they must CAUSE damage to your allies. There is no control aspect whatsoever. Therefore, the power of those skills is worthless. Sure, you get the damage, but rather than stopping the enemy from causing damage, controlling the situation (as [[Wandering Eye] and [[Clumsiness] would do) you still suffer from the attacks/spell effects of the enemy.

If you use other classes, or other skills, you are still better off than using a Mesmer in PvE because they are about control, not the damage that results from the skills themselves (only ~25% of the real power involved in this case, tbh).

Yeah, long explanation. Maybe that helped clarify?

If not, feel free to rip me a new one.

faraaz · Feb 27, 2009, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

What Tyla is saying, which happens to be falling on deaf ears, is that from a PvE standpoint skills like Backfire, Empathy, VoR, and SS are not optimal. Tyla has explained the reasoning behind this, which, again, has fallen on deaf ears.

I'm going to try to explain it again (and Tyla, if I make any complete bassackwards assumptions, feel free to correct my misunderstandings), maybe if I can say the same general thing in different words, it might get through.

Start by taking a look at what Tyla said in Post #24:

Backfire, Empathy, VoR, and SS all deal damage based on the hexed foe doing something. 'Kay?

If the hexed foe is doing something then you and your party members are suffering the consequences, whether it is getting attacked, hexed, nuked, whatever.

The point is that rather than using skills that require the enemy to beat the living hell out of you in order for them to trigger their damage, why aren't you using a proactive/aggressive stance and dealing damage and killing those enemies BEFORE they have a chance to get those nasty attacks and spells off?

Spells like these shine in PvP because they force the enemy to make a choice. As a human player, the choice ISN'T ALWAYS attack and cast through whatever hexes are stacked on you. But the AI will ALWAYS attack/cast through whatever nastiness you stick on them. ALWAYS. Whereas in a PvP setting, the player might choose to wait for hex removal if he/she is too far out from their backline. Forcing a skill to be used or not be used is infinitely more practical and useful in PvP. In PvE, all the skills designed to force the choice between "do it and the hex owns your face" vs. "don't do it and save your face". They are a control mechanism, and that control is why they are so powerful.

In PvE, sure, these skills do damage, but only if the hexed foe carries out the trigger action. In order for the damage to occur, they must CAUSE damage to your allies. There is no control aspect whatsoever. Therefore, the power of those skills is worthless. Sure, you get the damage, but rather than stopping the enemy from causing damage, controlling the situation (as [[Wandering Eye] and [[Clumsiness] would do) you still suffer from the attacks/spell effects of the enemy.

If you use other classes, or other skills, you are still better off than using a Mesmer in PvE because they are about control, not the damage that results from the skills themselves (only ~25% of the real power involved in this case, tbh).

Yeah, long explanation. Maybe that helped clarify?

If not, feel free to rip me a new one.

Preach the truth brother! Hallellujah.

PS: I loved the bolding...pound it into their thick skulls, gogo!

_Nihilist_ · Feb 27, 2009, 03:49 AM // 03:49

My main is a Warrior, faraaz. Pounding things into, through, and out of thick skulls comes naturally.

faraaz · Feb 27, 2009, 03:54 AM // 03:54

-_-

I still say sins are better than warriors. =p

Phe Belladona · Feb 27, 2009, 04:37 AM // 04:37

VoR is an AoE mesmer hex which does damage and doesnt end prematurely without hex removal, this coupled with cry of pain makes it good for pve. also you're assuming that the enemy is dealing maximum damage whilest casting/attacking through the punishment hexes which can be minimised with prot, minions and blind etc. also they do damage, armour ignoring damage, which is good cause you want things dead... quick. these punishment hexes have been extremely useful in all areas of pve i have played and even more important have a fantastic effect with minimum effort and focus required, so they are good.

play however you want but saying they arent good when they have proven themselves to be pretty efficient and easy to use in all areas of pve is silly.

Stealth Bomberman · Feb 27, 2009, 04:56 AM // 04:56

you ppl are forgetting that outside of [empathy][backfire][visions of regret] mes dont have many other options besides [clumsiness] and [wandering eye], but those two are in different att line. I personally favor:

[power block][power spike][power drain][arcane echo][ether nightmare][cry of pain][ebon vanguard assassin support][Resurrection Signet].

[assassins promise] can be replaced with PB, but other than that mes are a shutdown class and therefore must focus on their perspective rols, shutting down the strongest target i.e boss eles.

i happen to notice if you place [backfire] on a target they never cast.