Curse

Chthon · Jan 23, 2009, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Please, I'm running this with the same hero builds that I've used with other characters to vanquish every zone and HM dungeon in the game... I'm running it with modified Sabway heroes and ordinary henches...

Like I said, get better heroes.

Quote:

How are you figuring that "the rest of the chain is another 230"? "The rest of the chain" consists of a single skill, ["finish him!"].

I'm sorry. I made a math error. It's 235. Damage on Finish Him is 80, plus 25%; Deep wound from Finish Him caps at 100; Deep wound and cracked armor trigger Fragility twice for 2x 14, plus 25%.

Quote:

Besides, there are PLENTY of times in difficult areas that two spurts of 125 damage plus whatever heroes and henches do is not nearly enough to bring a foe down below 50%,

Bosses aside, monsters have 620, 660, and 700 hp at levels 26, 28, and 30, respectively. That means that the other 7 members of your party need to come up with 60, 80, and 100 damage, respectively, to get the target under 50%. If your team cannot do that, then they suck. Plain and simple. For Pete's sake, I consider Discordway thoroughly mediocre, and just one Discord guy alone can do that much.

Quote:

Foes heal, you know, and in HM they're actually pretty good at it.

1. You're executing two 1/4 casts (less even, thanks to fast casting), followed by a 1 sec cast, followed by a shout during its aftercast. There should not be time for much healing. 2. CoP interrupts. Try pointing it at the healer. 3. Leech Sig interrupts. You can easily predict that the healer will cast something right out of the second CoP. Delay your AP to camp the healer with Leech Sig if you like. 4. Assuming intelligent positioning and aggro control, you should have way more than enough foes in the blast radius that they can't all be healed in a timely fashion. If you fail to stop your target from getting healed, just change to another that didn't get healed. 5. "But monsters heal" applies to every offensive build in the game. You've got 7 other party members. Surely one of them can take on the disruption role. Aside from DS and ES warriors (which do much less damage than CoP spam), no one expects high damage builds to also disrupt potential healing. Why are you expecting it from this build?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gods Feathers

hey Chthon I really like the idea of the second one. I just wanted to ask what kind of builds you run with your heroes in certain types of areas.

For the Mandragor build? I usually select heroes to provide the direct offense that I'm lacking. Often that's a curse hero, a minion bomber, and a host of physicals; but it can be discordway, or anything else that's suited to your task at hand.

As for synergizing with the build, minion bombers are nice for providing a permanent 7 degen via bleeding and poison. (Yes, degen is a weak mechanic against a single target; but it's reasonably efficient when applied cheaply to an entire mob -- especially when the effect is wholly collateral to either build's main purpose.)

Burning is also an option, but there's no way to get it with a long enough duration without dedicating at least an elite slot to the task. (There's a few non-elite skills, but they all have usage issues... for instance, Burning Speed...) I suppose SF would be the best choice if you wanted burning, though I don't think SF builds are good enough to justify doing that.

Finally and most importantly, Broadhead Arrow is worth a hero slot (or Zho in EotN) wherever you expect significant caster presence. While Technobabble can do the job, it's always a scramble. BHA turns it into fire-and-forget.

Quote:

And regarding the build. Can this build work in pretty much any area when used properly? Or are there some areas you would suggest not using it, if so please do tell ^_^

Well, I wouldn't bother with Mallyx, Shiro, or Abbadon.... In general though, there's very little that can break this build. The foes I consider troublesome are: Am Fah healers and their Martyr can be a bit of a problem if you don't hit them with Extend before they Purge. Kournan Phalanxi and their Cautery Signet are a bit troublesome, but they don't use it often enough to completely break you. Slip ignorance into the build if you need to. Restore Conditions and Song of Restoration would both be very big problems, but there's virtually no monsters that use them.

Paul Dawg · Jan 23, 2009, 10:52 AM // 10:52

OK, we're going around in circles. Basically, you're saying "Don't try hero-henching with this build in any zone where you might not be able to bring a foe down below 50% health after two bursts of 125 damage" (or just one burst if your [arcane echo] was interrupted--we didn't even get to that). That would be a lot more honest than to keep pretending that other people's heroes must suck if your build fails. I mean really, what's the point of posting your build at all if your attitude is going to be "It works because I say so and if it doesn't work for you then you must suck"? If I can vanquish every zone and HM dungeon in the game with my heroes, but can't even do Dalada Uplands with your build, the problem is with your build. There are mobs in Dalada Uplands with two or even three healers, and they're good. "Try pointing it at the healer" isn't a solution. In the length of time (3.75 seconds, including aftercasts, by my arithmetic) that it takes you to go through your chain after [arcane echo], they can cast MULTIPLE healing spells.

I'm going to file the AP-AE-CoP mesmer under "Fails for hero-henching because the entire build is based on a single skill chain and leaves you without any useful skills when that chain doesn't work as planned." Disappointing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Bosses aside, monsters have 620, 660, and 700 hp at levels 26, 28, and 30, respectively. That means that the other 7 members of your party need to come up with 60, 80, and 100 damage, respectively, to get the target under 50%. If your team cannot do that, then they suck. Plain and simple. For Pete's sake, I consider Discordway thoroughly mediocre, and just one Discord guy alone can do that much.

1. You're executing two 1/4 casts (less even, thanks to fast casting), followed by a 1 sec cast, followed by a shout during its aftercast. There should not be time for much healing. 2. CoP interrupts. Try pointing it at the healer. 3. Leech Sig interrupts. You can easily predict that the healer will cast something right out of the second CoP. Delay your AP to camp the healer with Leech Sig if you like. 4. Assuming intelligent positioning and aggro control, you should have way more than enough foes in the blast radius that they can't all be healed in a timely fashion. If you fail to stop your target from getting healed, just change to another that didn't get healed. 5. "But monsters heal" applies to every offensive build in the game. You've got 7 other party members. Surely one of them can take on the disruption role. Aside from DS and ES warriors (which do much less damage than CoP spam), no one expects high damage builds to also disrupt potential healing. Why are you expecting it from this build?

MegaVolti · Jan 23, 2009, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I'm going to file the AP-AE-CoP mesmer under "Fails for hero-henching because the entire build is based on a single skill chain and leaves you without any useful skills when that chain doesn't work as planned." Disappointing.

Just wanted to add that this was exactly the point of my Illusion build posted earlier in this topic

Basically the same damage (except for crazy areas like the snowman dungeon) as the AP-CoP build with a smaller AoE but more safety (no skill chain that can be easily broken).

Chthon · Jan 24, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Basically, you're saying "Don't try hero-henching with this build in any zone where you might not be able to bring a foe down below 50% health after two bursts of 125 damage"

No. As much as you don't like to hear it, I'm saying that you are doing something wrong if you're failing the way you are describing. The strongest possibility is that your hero builds suck. The second strongest possibility is that you hero builds don't suck per se, but they don't combine with your build and your hench selection to make a coherent, functional team build. The third possibility is that you're doing a poor job of manipulating the monster AI into staying within CoP's AoE range.

Leon the (Insert Name) · Jan 25, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

both look very interesting ive been runnin an AP with discord heros and this looks like it would fit in well the second build just looks extremely fun lmao though maybe try and get some1 else with fragility for aoe spike

Utaku · Mar 30, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Hai, just wanted to say the condition spamming build in OP is both effective and incredibly fun to play.

No big numbers on the screen but covering mobs with blind, cripple, dw and daze at such a scale is incredible