Curse

Daesu · Sep 17, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

cough*lackofexperiencewithranger*cough.
But the best of all is the "mesmer run out of energy" part , that deserves a VERY big LOL. If theres ONE class that is capable 100% of not running out of energy in this game is mesmer , you sir made an epic FAIL.

LOL! Lack of experience with mesmers?

Cuilan · Sep 17, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

It's likely you with lack of experience since you run out of energy...

Captain Bulldozer · Sep 17, 2009, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by xarkle

Don't Get me wrong, I love the mesmer, but I feel like they got the short end of the straw in a lot of aspects. I don't feel like they are a fair pve character, and dont tell me the pve only skills fix that... cause that just proves that they were shorted in their other skills. I just feel like GW cut corners and some things that the assassin has should be the mesmers skills. For example:

I would combine domination and illusion magic into 1 attribute called Mind Magic and then the other attribute would be something like Deception. Deception should have been somethign like shadow arts in my opinion.

Your thoughts?

Since the thread seems to be increasingly off topic, here's the OP's post once more. To be fair, the OP has a decent point that in some ways mesmers have a short straw in PvE. Most mesmer skills were made to be very balanced because they were made before the skill split, and haven't been changed much since. Without that balance in PvP, mesmers would simply destroy everything, instead of just nearly doing that.

But while this has perhaps limited the mesmer from more traditional (*cough*necro-like*cough*) play styles, its a big mistake to say the mesmers are not effective in PvE, just as it is to say that mesmers need to use mostly skills from other lines. There are a number of easily OPed skills other professions have, and mesmer skills tend to be a lot more balanced, but this again does NOT say mesmers can't be tremendously effective (even when sticking to their own skill lines). While its true that Brute force generally works well in PvE, its really short sided to say that that's all which is required to do well in PvE.

As for the OP's suggestion of combining the various mesmer lines... I don't see a need for it. Domination and illusion are very different types of skills, so I wouldn't say they deserve to be lumped together. One of the only things the lines really have in common is that they both excel at various forms of pressure, which can be said of half the skill lines in the game (or more).

Daesu · Sep 17, 2009, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

But while this has perhaps limited the mesmer from more traditional (*cough*necro-like*cough*) play styles, its a big mistake to say the mesmers are not effective in PvE, just as it is to say that mesmers need to use mostly skills from other lines. are a number of easily OPed skills other professions have, and mesmer skills tend to be a lot more balanced, but this again does NOT say mesmers can't be tremendously effective (even when sticking to their own skill lines).

And that summarizes it. Mesmers ARE effective in PvE. Just not as effective as other classes like necros and rits.

But that is entirely different from such claim of supremacy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

If theres ONE class that is capable 100% of not running out of energy in this game is mesmer

...by saying that, he is already implicitly comparing the mesmer with all the other classes.

Xenomortis · Sep 17, 2009, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

It's likely you with lack of experience since you run out of energy...

You've missed the point.
Saying that the Mesmer is the one class that is capable of never running out of energy is completely stupid. The mesmer's energy management is nowhere near as reliable or powerful as Soul Reaping or Ether Renewal. Leadership, Expertise and Critical Strikes are also fairly potent energy management attributes.

Whilst a mesmer won't necessarily run out of energy, if the mesmer is careful, Tenebrae's statement is ludicrous.

Tenebrae · Sep 17, 2009, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You've missed the point.
Saying that the Mesmer is the one class that is capable of never running out of energy is completely stupid. The mesmer's energy management is nowhere near as reliable or powerful as Soul Reaping or Ether Renewal. Leadership, Expertise and Critical Strikes are also fairly potent energy management attributes.

Whilst a mesmer won't necessarily run out of energy, if the mesmer is careful, Tenebrae's statement is ludicrous.

And not understanding a simple sentece is even more stupid , lets look at it :

"If theres ONE class that is capable 100% of not running out of energy in this game is mesmer" .

Translation for non smart ones :
-Mesmer active e-management is one of the best of the game.
-Mesmer e-management doesnt depend on chance ( Critical Strikes ), 1 elite skill that needs 3+ enchs to be effective ( Ether renewal ) or foes dying ( Soul Reaping ).
-Not running out of energy =\= (Best) energy gain
-Capable 100% doesnt mean other classes are BS compared to them

If you run a necro in PvE and run out of energy without being drained by a foe or something ... you just simply forgot to use some att points on Soul Reaping or are SO bad at GW that your team doesnt kill ..... hell , even if someone of your team DIES you will recieve energy. That is passive.

You Xenomortis are the one that is missing the point ; that is one sentence taken out of context , the thing is that Daesu claimed that Rangers can spam interrupt skills CONSTANTLY due to expertise and never run out of energy ( lol @ that ) while MESMERS using interrupts would run out of energy pretty fast and that my friend is simply a statement that shows nearly about 0 experience with both classes. Heres a tip : "inspiration magic" .

Please , this misreading and taking sentences out of context does nothing good to yourselves , be fair .

Xenomortis · Sep 17, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

"If theres ONE class that is capable 100% of not running out of energy in this game is mesmer" .

Translation for non smart ones :
-Mesmer active e-management is one of the best of the game.
-Mesmer e-management doesnt depend on chance ( Critical Strikes ), 1 elite skill that needs 3+ enchs to be effective ( Ether renewal ) or foes dying ( Soul Reaping ).
-Not running out of energy =\= (Best) energy gain
-Capable 100% doesnt mean other classes are BS compared to them

The "One" bit is where I have issue. That implies that Inspiration is superior for energy to other options, when it isn't. Ether Renewal is the prime example. Hell, non elite energy management for an ele is superior if they play properly, even if their attunement is stripped they can get by on GoLE and Glowing Gaze/Glowstone/Shock Arrow/Glowing Ice.

Had you said "The mesmer is capable of not running out of energy", then you would not have made a laughable, stupid statement, just an unnecessary one.

I strongly suggest this ends. Nothing constructive is coming up and ad hominem arguments and plain insults are becoming too prevelant, strongly indicating nobody really has anything else to say.

Tenebrae · Sep 17, 2009, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The "One" bit is where I have issue. That implies that Inspiration is superior for energy to other options, when it isn't.

For energy what ? energy gain or not running out of energy ? i dont think they are the same and i was talking about the second one. Fyi , inspiration magic can be used by ANY class while the others arent so for that matter , TO ME , is the best or one of the best options.
That "one" doesnt mean "the one and only" , i hope i cleared things up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Ether Renewal is the prime example. Hell, non elite energy management for an ele is superior if they play properly, even if their attunement is stripped they can get by on GoLE and Glowing Gaze/Glowstone/Shock Arrow/Glowing Ice.

Ether renewal is an elite and needs about 3+ enchs to be effective , thats half of the bar to "not lose energy" . Like i said before , im not saying mesmer is "the one" , eles are good but not 100% capable ....... about 70% maybe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Had you said "The mesmer is capable of not running out of energy", then you would not have made a laughable, stupid statement, just an unnecessary one.

Once again ( please read context of that sentece pal ) was an answer to some comment that was false and out of place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I strongly suggest this ends. Nothing constructive is coming up and ad hominem arguments and plain insults are becoming too prevelant, strongly indicating nobody really has anything else to say.

I agree , the thing is that i wasnt the first calling ppl names , its so easy to post things without those "that thing you said is stupid" , "those who dont X are newbies" and so on but i guess some ppl ( not you ) like mocking ppl instead asking "what you mean with that ? because i understand that bla bla bla , am i right ?"

Captain Bulldozer · Sep 17, 2009, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The "One" bit is where I have issue.

Even though I think Tenebrae's statement is perhaps worded less precisely that it could have been, you shouldn't make the mistake of reading something like "If there's ONE" to mean "if there's ONLY ONE." Logically speaking, saying if there's one is equivalent to saying "if there exists". To that end, mesmer is certainly a profession that has a hard time running out of energy when interrupting (when doing it properly at any rate). Of course, we can all admite freely that soul reaping is energy management for dummies as it requires exactly no real skill to use effectively (the primary reason why its an over-powered attribute).

upier · Sep 17, 2009, 01:50 PM // 13:50

I am going to require some builds to start taking tips like "inspiration magic" seriously.

Daesu · Sep 17, 2009, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Even though I think Tenebrae's statement is perhaps worded less precisely that it could have been, you shouldn't make the mistake of reading something like "If there's ONE" to mean "if there's ONLY ONE." Logically speaking, saying if there's one is equivalent to saying "if there exists".

The way it is worded, does not make a difference whether "if there's ONE" or "if there's only ONE". "If ONE exists", then an Ether Renewal Ele would be a much more likely candidate than the mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

For energy what ? energy gain or not running out of energy ? i dont think they are the same and i was talking about the second one. Fyi , inspiration magic can be used by ANY class while the others arent so for that matter , TO ME , is the best or one of the best options.

Even though "energy gain" and "not running out of energy" are not exactly the same, they are still related. True that inspiration magic can be used by other classes, but the fact that it can be used by other classes runs counter to your argument rather than support your argument.

Lets say that inspiration magic is as awesome as you say it is, that its user doesn't run out of energy, then wouldn't secondary mesmers learn to exploit it? Plus combining it with their primary attributes (e.g. soul reaping) would make their energy management even more effective than the mesmer's?

Quote:

Ether renewal is an elite and needs about 3+ enchs to be effective , thats half of the bar to "not lose energy" . Like i said before , im not saying mesmer is "the one" , eles are good but not 100% capable ....... about 70% maybe.

Losing energy is ok, provided you can gain them all back easily. That is what Ether Renewal is about. The "3+ enchs to be effective" actually serve the purpose of the build.

Tenebrae · Sep 17, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The way it is worded, does not make a difference whether "if there's ONE" or "if there's only ONE". "If ONE exists", then an Ether Renewal Ele would be a much more likely candidate than the mesmer.

Well it does , is not the same no matter how many times you say it , and Ether renewal ele is ONE build/elite , not ONE entire class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Even though "energy gain" and "not running out of energy" are not exactly the same, they are still related. True that inspiration magic can be used by other classes, but the fact that it can be used by other classes runs counter to your argument rather than support your argument.

Once again emmmm ... no . I never said primary mesmers ; for that matter a Mo/Me using mesmer skills for e-management supports my argument but wait .... how many other Non-Eles ( secondary ones ) use Ether renewal ? .... tic tac , hope you know the answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Lets say that inspiration magic is as awesome as you say it is, that its user doesn't run out of energy, then wouldn't secondary mesmers learn to exploit it? Plus combining it with their primary attributes (e.g. soul reaping) would make their energy management even more effective than the mesmer's?

Im not saying is awesome or best att in the game but something anyone can use for e-management is ALWAYS better that something that only a primary X can use , just simply numbers. Hell , you are saying Ele is better at "not running out of energy" for 1 skill but if i say mesmer is better because a whole att line im wrong ? ...... again , by numbers im right. Who is the owner of that att line that can be user by anyone effectively ? Mesmer , so there you go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Losing energy is ok, provided you can gain them all back easily. That is what Ether Renewal is about. The "3+ enchs to be effective" actually serve the purpose of the build.

Still , 1 build that needs half bar to do it or more or 1 elite cant be taken as a win card , you cant say Ele is better for 1 elite skill against a whole attribute line ( inspiration magic ) , not at all .

upier · Sep 17, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

GoLE.
15 energy saved every 30 secs.
Requires 0 investment into the attribute.
Even mesmers run GoLE instead of investing into Inspiration.

The simple fact that the mesmers have a whole attribute line devoted to e-management doesn't mean that the HUGE majority of skills there isn't complete and utter shit. I'd rather have a few options that are as obscenely overpowered as the ones other classes have access to than a big pile of mediocrity.

The Drunkard · Sep 17, 2009, 09:16 PM // 21:16

I use auspicious incantation, etap, and drain enchant and I usually have no problems with emanagement, as long as I don't spam skills on recharge.

I use GoLE to put my attribute points elsewhere.

Although the illusion line has gotten a bit of attenction over this past year, the domination line is a pretty weak source of damage in PvE due to the large mobs.

The class is "hard" for a reason, it doens't blow stuff up well (excluding AP)

xarkle · Sep 18, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

My invision of combining the two classes was simply wishful thinking, and i am aware that there are much different views on the subject. i just wish they would give mesmer some slack. The VoR nerf was not needed in pve either, i think Anet needs to stop the mesmer nerfing in pve and alot of my issues would be fixed.

xarkle · Sep 18, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

also they just nerfed mantra of resolve... goodbye alot of farm builds

wilebill · Sep 20, 2009, 11:58 AM // 11:58

The nerf of MoR is completely mysterious to me. Somebody explain why?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer is the class description of the Mesmer on the official wiki. Pretty funny. The part I like best is:

"Their unique illusionary talents can slow or even halt enemy movement and skill casting, or cause imaginary illnesses that drain Health and Energy from foes while healing and energizing allies." -- uh ... so why aren't my allies thanking me for all this healing and energizing that they are getting?

My Mesmer dates back to Prophecies. I play both PvP and PvE with the Mesmer, but more PvP these days. I agree with OP, changes need to be made.

Even so, a Mesmer can be surprising. Yesterday i went after Jarmiya the Snicklefritz in Yehtendi Valley with all my chars in HM for the Zaishen quest. All were running modified Sabway, so, yeah, a sharp stick would have worked. The interesting thing, though, was the Mesmer made the run the fastest and took the least damage doing it. The bar was just ordinary Mesmer skills, no PvE or faction skills.

M'Aiq The Liar · Sep 20, 2009, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Mesmer is an awkward character for PvE, and they were shortchanged in comparison to other classes, but they're not exactly bad by any means. A standard VoR build works almost anywhere, and even without it, I'm sure you could make gimmicky stuff with Sig of Illusions or Lyssa's Aura work.

Quote:

Lets say that inspiration magic is as awesome as you say it is, that its user doesn't run out of energy, then wouldn't secondary mesmers learn to exploit it? Plus combining it with their primary attributes (e.g. soul reaping) would make their energy management even more effective than the mesmer's?

Kind of funny, that's actually why inspiration magic blows so hard. Pre-Nightfall boon prot monks would use inspiration skills to make up for the problems managing their energy, so ANet did what they do best and nerfed everything not directly related to the problem. And that everything was Pre-Nightfall inspiration magic skills. They used to be very, very good, grabbing a lot of energy. Now they're completely outclassed by GoLE.

=DNC=Trucker · Sep 22, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

The class has always struggled to find its place in PvE. Some thoughts that come to mind ~

I think it is true what has been mentioned - brute force is the preferred (easiest) method with PUG's or speed clear-type parties. Obviously this puts a damper on Mesmers because they have little brute force (I like the surgical instrument analogy

). Shutting down or denying a single target is just not the best use of that party slot in a pure brute force party. I remember starting my Mesmer when Prophecies came out and feeling like I wasn't really doing anything (building up to make Glint worthless was great though), until Abaddon's Mouth.. most mesmers probably remember the first time you went up against Willa the Unpleasant and the Monk with it - when the only thing out was Prophecies. It was the first very satisfying mission where I felt like shutting down those 2 monks with my mez was integral to the success of the team. I miss that feeling. I think ANET made a mistake by not placing enough high profile, stubborn foes in the game like this. More enemy healing I say... you can still steamroll and brute force, it will just be much slower without a mesmer working that high profile target.

A few other ideas to make the mesmer more viable to parties:

Fast Casting : Enchantment: Target other ally has X fast casting (FC scaled based on your FC)
Inspiration: Fuse Hex: Target ally loses 1 hex and gains x...x energy.
Inspiration: Fuse Condition: Target ally loses 1 condition and gains x...x energy.

ya know.. some of that "energize allies" the profession description talks about.

xarkle · Sep 30, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

I like those ideas for skills