Curse

maxxfury · Sep 13, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

For me, AP falls into the section of:

> been broken enough to let you do stuff you shouldnt be normally able to do! with killer results.

>But fragile enough to not be too much of a problem as its easy to mess up if you have no sense of timing/are bad/ get unlucky!

Seems pretty safe atm to me.

draxynnic · Sep 14, 2009, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Fourth : I dont care about PUGS , if any1 did , all ppl on UW would be permas and so on. That doesnt mean anything , like Dr House said "ppl sux" .

May be, but my comment was given context of being especially true with HM PUGs. If you're going to dismiss that context as irrelevant, then maybe it doesn't apply to you. Doesn't mean it doesn't apply to others, especially others that lack large, highly active guilds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

I am not , but you should watch carefully what you say. AP is not a Primary mesmer tool , not at all , and whatever happens to that skill will affect primary mesmers the SAME way it will affect rest of classes ( except A maybe ). Because someone disagree with you doesnt mean he/she is trolling , no matter in what context that sentence i quoted was , its totally way out of sense imo ( and upier thinks so too ). If you dont like my opinion , soz , but i aint going to change my mind about AP nerf and "the way this class has to be played" ( for thread topic ).

He does? Maybe I'm getting him confused with someone else, but I've always had a "Necro-is-strictly-better-but-I-enjoy-playing-Mesmer-anyway" vibe from him.

As for the rest... If I'd really thought you were trolling I wouldn't have responded at all, but your response wasn't exactly a form of disagreement carefully worded to be non-provocative. This having come when, after having spent most of the thread defending the Mesmer, I felt it necessary to concede how limited the range of highly competitive PvE builds for Mesmers really was seemed... suspicious.

And...to repeat a challenge which has been raised before and which no-one has really managed to satisfactorily answer: Can you provide a Mesmer build that doesn't (ab)use AP and/or AI reflexes that some other build can't do better? The mandragor-in-a-can build was a contender, but it now appears (surprise surprise) that maybe the N/Me can in fact do that better. Believe me, if you could prove that the aforementioned range of highly competitive builds for Mesmers is larger than I thought it was, than I'd happily eat a few words in exchange.

Daesu · Sep 14, 2009, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

This thread is not about that , its about playing a hard class to play. Its hard not because its bad or substandart , its because its versatilty.

Dont understand why people think mesmers are a hard class to play. General pve can't be that hard and mesmers are definitely viable in HM.

The context of this thread is that mesmers have not been buffed as much as the other classes, like the necros and the ritualists. This means, comparatively, mesmers dont roll over mobs as fast as these other classes that's all.

On the side issue of VoR, they should have split that skill and just nerf the pvp version. ANet tends to be "lazy" when it comes to mesmers. The PvE mesmer has been nerfed all too often because of PvP.

maxxfury · Sep 14, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Dont understand why people think mesmers are a hard class to play. General pve can't be that hard and mesmers are definitely viable in HM.

The context of this thread is that mesmers have not been buffed as much as the other classes, like the necros and the ritualists. This means, comparatively, mesmers dont roll over mobs as fast as these other classes that's all.

Perfect summary of the thread..and spot on!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

On the side issue of VoR, they should have split that skill and just nerf the pvp version. ANet tends to be "lazy" when it comes to mesmers. The PvE mesmer has been nerfed all too often because of PvP.

and sadly...Lazy...aye. Shame too.

draxynnic · Sep 15, 2009, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

On the side issue of VoR, they should have split that skill and just nerf the pvp version. ANet tends to be "lazy" when it comes to mesmers. The PvE mesmer has been nerfed all too often because of PvP.

Can't disagree with this.

Tenebrae · Sep 15, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Dont understand why people think mesmers are a hard class to play. General pve can't be that hard and mesmers are definitely viable in HM.

Well , for me , W A R N E D ( soz , i had to do the letters trick

) are easier to play so it leaves rest of profs on the mid/hard part. I dont have a Monk and my D got deleted in favor of my Mes so thats my opinion.
Ofc this entire game PvE is not "hard" for me , is not rocket science, dont take the word "hard" literally ok ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The context of this thread is that mesmers have not been buffed as much as the other classes, like the necros and the ritualists. This means, comparatively, mesmers dont roll over mobs as fast as these other classes that's all.

PvE Necros buffed ? more than Mes ? pse i dont think so and dont think that Mes are slower just because they are Mesmers .... depends on team config. Sometimes not faster , sometimes equal , sometimes slower ..... like all profs i guess. Btw i dont think Ritualists always had a good time and were better considered than Mesmers .... not at all .

Daesu · Sep 15, 2009, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

PvE Necros buffed ? more than Mes ? pse i dont think so and dont think that Mes are slower just because they are Mesmers .... depends on team config. Sometimes not faster , sometimes equal , sometimes slower ..... like all profs i guess. Btw i dont think Ritualists always had a good time and were better considered than Mesmers .... not at all .

You shouldn't be bringing in team config because that would complicate the comparison to 8 skill bars instead of 1. Unless that is your ulterior intention all along to blur the comparison picture.

Rits have a pretty good time right now.

I cringe whenever I hear the comments that mesmers are not suppose to do too much damage since they are suppose to be a denial class. People forget that death is the BEST form of denial.

With the current speed that HM PvE is cleared due to power creep, it is faster and more practical to just kill the target out right than to deny it one or two skills.

Tenebrae · Sep 15, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You shouldn't be bringing in team config because that would complicate the comparison to 8 skill bars instead of 1. Unless that is your ulterior intention all along to blur the comparison picture.

Rits have a pretty good time right now.

Then you shouldnt say X rolls better thru pve when pve is mainly played by 6-8 more ppl/NPC so that is not a valid argument either. Rits maybe better now but they have been on the low sooooooo long that you cant say they are better at PvE than Mes when 80% of the time since faction release they werent

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I cringe whenever I hear the comments that mesmers are not suppose to do too much damage since they are suppose to be a denial class. People forget that death is the BEST form of denial.

With the current speed that HM PvE is cleared due to power creep, it is faster and more practical to just kill the target out right than to deny it one or two skills.

Following that logic DEATH is the best prot or healing possible , if the foe die before dealing any damage then raw damage is far better and practical than carrying 2 healers on a 8 party right ?. Nah , denial also DENIES damage , DENIES ability of foes preventing your party DAMAGE and also can prevent damage to your party so its a support role. Some of us believe and think that support roles are as good as damage dealing roles and pure healing roles.

maxxfury · Sep 15, 2009, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Then you shouldnt say X rolls better thru pve when pve is mainly played by 6-8 more ppl/NPC so that is not a valid argument either. Rits maybe better now but they have been on the low sooooooo long that you cant say they are better at PvE than Mes when 80% of the time since faction release they werent

Its all about the here and now, how the game is balanced at THIS moment! The past is the past and doesnt count! thats all done and dusted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Following that logic DEATH is the best prot or healing possible , if the foe die before dealing any damage then raw damage is far better and practical than carrying 2 healers on a 8 party right ?. Nah , denial also DENIES damage , DENIES ability of foes preventing your party DAMAGE and also can prevent damage to your party so its a support role. Some of us believe and think that support roles are as good as damage dealing roles and pure healing roles.

sadly, damage now hits so hard and so fast from your team that it outclasses mes shutdown far too much to be optimal and truely warrent a slot on a crammed team of 8.***

You get 2 monks(or a rit) backline and your set..generally all you need....if you take SY thats a MASSIVE bonus, WAY bigger bonus than a mes can achieve.

I've said it before, and likely say it again.

VIABLE =/= OPTIMAL

and YES Mesmer IS VIABLE!

***not that spamming sins isnt a whole heap of fun and is pretty badass

But then thats a Pve skill spamming platform and not a normal mes bar.

Daesu · Sep 16, 2009, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Then you shouldnt say X rolls better thru pve when pve is mainly played by 6-8 more ppl/NPC so that is not a valid argument either.

By that argument of yours, then all single skillbar comparisons are invalid unless they all need to take the entire team into account.

Quote:

Rits maybe better now but they have been on the low sooooooo long that you cant say they are better at PvE than Mes when 80% of the time since faction release they werent

So by your measure, since the mesmer profession existed long before ritualists, then they have suffered far longer, and is therefore much worse than rits.

Quote:

Following that logic DEATH is the best prot or healing possible , if the foe die before dealing any damage then raw damage is far better and practical than carrying 2 healers on a 8 party right ?. Nah , denial also DENIES damage , DENIES ability of foes preventing your party DAMAGE and also can prevent damage to your party so its a support role. Some of us believe and think that support roles are as good as damage dealing roles and pure healing roles.

So does Death.

Denial is a form of protection, and death is still the ultimate denial.

Premium Unleaded · Sep 16, 2009, 05:18 AM // 05:18

The main problem with denial is that it's fundamentally geared towards affecting a single group.

It's fine in PvP because you're facing a fixed, absolute number of bars many times over for a prolonged period, where removing some/most of one from play will make a noticable difference over the course of the battle.
99.9% of the time in PvE though, it doesn't do much to help your team since you're fighting many separate mobs just once over a short period. You remove one or two mosnters from play for a few moments, but there are still hundreds to go afterwards and they are all fresh/separate groups - ie. what you do to one patrol has little to no bearing on the capabilities of another.
Defensive support like prot spirit and aegis is to prevent you from taking damage. Offensive support - shutdown, denial, disruption is to prevent them from doing damage. PvE = lots of them, few of you and death of them is still the ultimate goal. Unless the mob has serious damage/damage mitigation which typical utilities like enchant removal/weakness or exploiting some piece of game mechanic (eg. Rilohn Refuge + winter) cannot compensate for efficiently, it's cheaper on time and energy to prevent you from taking the damage and to kill them to prevent it from happening again. And even then, something as simple as bsurge/blind or BHA will do the job most of the time.

Tenebrae · Sep 16, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

By that argument of yours, then all single skillbar comparisons are invalid unless they all need to take the entire team into account.

False , you can compare 1 build to another , i never said otherwise but you cant compare a WHOLE class rolling thru pve with another when that class WONT EVER run thru pve ALONE without team mates 100% of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

So by your measure, since the mesmer profession existed long before ritualists, then they have suffered far longer, and is therefore much worse than rits.

Im not measuring anything , please dont make things up from nothing. You cant say something IS X because the way it is NOW. Things are what they are because of what they were + what they are now so for example you cant say someone is a good person because of the way he/she is now on 2 months period when in the past he killed 20 ppl on cold blood , understood ?

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

So does Death.

Denial is a form of protection, and death is still the ultimate denial.

Unless you are packing a 1 button god mode = all instakill you are wrong. You can kill nothing in 3/4 but you can DENY something in that time and save some party member of dying or provide wide party armor and bla bla bla in 1 second so support roles still matter and mesmers are part of that role no matter what you say

draxynnic · Sep 16, 2009, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Then you shouldnt say X rolls better thru pve when pve is mainly played by 6-8 more ppl/NPC so that is not a valid argument either. Rits maybe better now but they have been on the low sooooooo long that you cant say they are better at PvE than Mes when 80% of the time since faction release they werent

That makes it sound like you're saying that Mesmers should suffer until they've been at the bottom of the heap for as long as Ritualists were. It also ignores the fact that Ritualists went from near the bottom to near the top, and Mesmers have never really been near the top (even in CoP's heyday, there were plenty of people who thought such builds were better as N/Me or E/Me).

One thing that hasn't been mentioned on the denial side is that distributed denial is just too easy with PvE skills. When anyone can (and often does) take You Move Like A Dwarf for the cost of a PvE slot, that means anyone can be carrying an instant-activation interrupt that works on anything that isn't immune to knockdowns. Heck, with five copies of it among a team and good coordination, you can keep a target knocklocked until they die. How can the Mesmer compete against that?

Short answer: Cry of Frustration. Tease. Fevered Dreams, to a lesser extent, if the Daze gets triggered. BHA/Epidemic rangers are fun, but one thing the Mesmer is king at is disrupting the spellcasting of an entire mob at once. This is, ultimately, why I like to bring Mesmer heroes along - they can throw a bit of armour-ignoring damage in, but those first few seconds when HM elementalists are throwing their spikes can be the nastiest of a fight, and tossing a Tease followed by a CoF at the start of the fight can put a real crimp in the enemy's style. While my Mesmer heroes tend to bring a bit of armour-ignoring damage and a bit of enchantment removal, this is ultimately what they're really there for.

Problem is you need fast fingers and a good internet connection to do that as a human against HM casting speeds... and even for the Mesmer, the number of multiple-target denial effects is small. Now, if there was a way to apply something like Guilt on multiple targets simultaneously...

...although there's another problem. Things like Guilt and Mistrust simply cause spell failure, which means that Rodgort's you just stopped will come back around like a bad smell. But I digress.

Anyway, the fact that you can't load your heroes with PvE skills like YMLaD! does mean that the Mesmer is more suited to H/Hing than it is to full human parties, but in the latter it really is quite limited in options. After all, those five "YMLaD"s could be used on five individual targets to give 2 seconds of little or no enemy retaliation just as easily (in fact, probably more easily) than the coordinated knocklock tactic described above.

Incidentally, another area where Mesmers could use some help with is hex removal. It's theoretically one of their main roles, but Monks have them outclassed in that role so much it just isn't funny.

Daesu · Sep 16, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

False , you can compare 1 build to another , i never said otherwise but you cant compare a WHOLE class rolling thru pve with another when that class WONT EVER run thru pve ALONE without team mates 100% of the time.

False, you can still compare individual professions without taking the entire team into account since you dont need team synergy to roll through pve, as proven by pugs. That is a testament of how easy general pve is.

Quote:

Things are what they are because of what they were + what they are now so for example you cant say someone is a good person because of the way he/she is now on 2 months period when in the past he killed 20 ppl on cold blood , understood ?

.

Comparing the necro with mesmer profession has something to do with crimes to you?

Quote:

You can kill nothing in 3/4

Wrong! I can kill a target in HM in about that time using discordway.

Quote:

but you can DENY something in that time and save some party member of dying

Unless you suck and your party members are dying frequently, denial is not necessary because most pve battles dont last long.

Quote:

or provide wide party armor and bla bla bla in 1 second so support roles still matter and mesmers are part of that role no matter what you say

Monk/Rit healing and protection spells are all I need. Spell and energy denial are not necessary in general pve because targets die far too quickly.

Tenebrae · Sep 16, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

False, you can still compare individual professions without taking the entire team into account since you dont need team synergy to roll through pve, as proven by pugs. That is a testament of how easy general pve is.

Quoting you , "this is pointless class comparison" . You can complete pve with H/H with an empty bar , any prof can have an empty bar so you cant compare ¿?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Comparing the necro with mesmer profession has something to do with crimes to you?

Smoking crack or misreading on purpose ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Wrong! I can kill a target in HM in about that time using discordway.

And i can kill a target in HM even without touching my keyboard without discordway ! . Again , on drugs or misreading on purpose ? ofc im refering to a FULL HP target dude lol .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Unless you suck and your party members are dying frequently, denial is not necessary because most pve battles dont last long.

Can you be more hypochrite ? lol , you , mister "gw=discordway" , are bringing lots of minions as a meat wall to DENY hits on party members due to AI targeting low lvl/armor foes first , dont tell me what is or not is necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Monk/Rit healing and protection spells are all I need. Spell and energy denial are not necessary in general pve because targets die far too quickly.

Once again , i NEVER said that spell and energy denial is NEEDED in general pve. I can do general pve with an empty bar and no daze but following that logic you cant say having skills or dazing spellcasters is not a good measure.

Seriously , your misreading and overexxagerate answers to something no one asked or said are getting me tired. This thread is about play a mesmer , being hard or not , not saying X is better or whatsoever so if you are not going to stay on topic your posts are pointless.

Cuilan · Sep 16, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Seriously , your misreading and overexxagerate answers to something no one asked or said are getting me tired.

Now you see why I stopped posting in this thread (much).

Age · Sep 17, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I would say it is about the same as Monk with no added responsiblty for a party.I can interrupt sometime better with my Mesmer than my Ranger could be the fast cast.It is not that hard.

Cuilan · Sep 18, 2009, 05:46 AM // 05:46

If Cry of Pain was tied to fast casting instead of how it is now, then the only builds I can see using it is AP and interruption since they have or can have high fast casting (as in higher than 9-12). I'm not sure what I'd think of that.

Cobalt · Sep 22, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would say it is about the same as Monk with no added responsiblty for a party.I can interrupt sometime better with my Mesmer than my Ranger could be the fast cast.It is not that hard.

Nah Mesmer is harder;

I have only recently started playing a Mesmer but have had a Monk since Prophecies , in fact I have played all other classes extensively except Paragon and so far I find that the Mesmer energy management is by far the hardest to deal with among all classes.

I spend almost as much time timing energy gaining sigs and spells as I do casting offensive and defensive skills. I understand now why there are so few Mesmers in the game, it is not a point and click class and has a steep learning curve compared to the rest.

Karate Jesus · Sep 22, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

In PvE?

Um....there are no 'hard' professions in PvE.

AP + EVAS + CoP + FH! = easy.

Arcane Echo + E-surge = easy spike.

Arcane Echo + RoJ (pre-nerf) = easy......(post-nerf) = easy in NM.

Mesmers, just like every other profession in PvE are easy.