Curse

Tyla · Sep 08, 2009, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by yamazaru

Simple. Is it still the hardest to understand, hardest to use wisely, and hardest to make a build for.

Understanding is completely subjective and different to everyone. On the other end, they are supposed to be a nuisance to other players. That's all you need to know in reality.

If it's harder to make a build, then it's not difficulty, it's insisted hinderment. The idea of making a build is to create a flexible counter (in terms of professions that are punishers) to what you expect to see. Casters? Guilt, Power Leak... oh, I could choose from a lot. In an area where everything encountered is predictable, it's not "hard", and research isn't a demonstration of skill until you put the pencil to paper.

Wise usage is all a guessing game in PvE. And once you know the tricks of the trade, it's just a chore. I could just as easily say "Distracting Shot".

In short, in the PvE of this game, if your profession choice makes the game "hard" compared to others, then your profession choice is just a hinderment.

draxynnic · Sep 08, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Add Reckless Haste and Enfeebling Blood to that list. Those skills are a defining feature of the Curses line and outstrip anything the Mesmer has. Citing skills like that and then trying to dismiss the line is rather foolish - the same could be done with various other lines.

Personally, I've thought that a lot of Necromancer skills, especially Curses, should be Mesmer skills instead. Reckless Haste? That's manipulating the mind - a Mesmer thing. SS? Elite Empathy. Same with SV. The Necromancer would still have the core of the MoP build, the orders build, and the MM build... and I'd consider giving them the mandragor-in-a-can stuff as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I'm going to shift stance slightly here. The problem with Mesmer in PvE isn't that it has poor skills or A-Net haven't buffed them properly. The problem with the Mesmer in PvE, is that the two have become more and more incompatible as PvE has changed since the initial release. The design of PvE is the problem, not the design of the Mesmer.

While I can't disagree with the conclusion, altering the Mesmer to be more suitable for PvE conditions is probably a lot easier than rebuilding PvE from the ground up to be more Mesmer-friendly... in GW, anyway. That may be something they're working towards in GW2.

Cherrie · Sep 08, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

I'd guess playing Me in PvE is hard because we don't really have any PvE skills of the impact the other classes do (and sadly in PvE impact = AoE)

There have been many, way to many nerfs to Mesmer before they separated PvP and PvE skills and the truth is, for general PvE Mes has close to none useful skills.
It's just easier and more effective to use Ele, Necro or Rt skills in PvE.
Not more rewarding, don't get me wrong.

It's a pity, but that's how it is now :/

makosi · Sep 08, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

I just got my GWAMM on my mesmer and I found it pretty easy to do vanquishing, HM missions and such. The reason why it was so easy is because I didn't strictly play mesmer... draw your own conclusions.

I ran this:

Code:

OQdUAYhMQvSiOLB7iLQxkyl5ACAA

Fast Casting: 14 (Yes, it's a very useful attribute)
Deadly Arts: 10
Inspiration Magic: 9
Domination Magic: 4

I don't claim to have invented the Assassin's Promise sin-spammer but this is what I developed around the concept. I'm a spammy player and run out of energy fast so it suited my play-style well.

It is very energy-friendly thanks to Assassin's Promise and Auspicious; the only problem is when AP is removed, the foe doesn't die in time or, more rarely, it is interrupted.

Executing it is very-much a braindead task. Cast Auspicious, Arcane Echo then two Ebon Sins at your target, followed by Assassin's Promise. Ebon Sins are particularly overpowered because of Iron Palm knocking down foes which is strong both defensively and offensively. Once the target is under 50% health, use "Finish Him!" and it is likely to be dead or near-dead. Abuse Pain Inverter like normal on damage dealing foes like Warriors, Dervishes and especially Eles and use it to cover AP where hex removal is present. You'll find that sometimes there will be up to 8 of your sins scratching away at foes and tanking damage so that you and your heroes/henchmen will be relieved of some of that pressure.

Skill 7 is for utility. I sometimes used:

- Hex Eater Signet - Mamoon Lagoon comes to mind with all of those Wind Riders Migraining my heroes so it was an appropriate choice for deep hex removal.

- Ether Signet - For when AP didn't work for whatever reason.

- Drain/Inspired Enchantment - for stripping Mark of Protection of those damned Dolyak Riders in the Shiverpeaks.

- Dash - For accelerated wall-hugging for cartography.

- Leech Signet - Universal interruption skill.

- Signet of Humility - This wasn't the best choice of shutting down strong elites due to the 10 second blackout of non-mesmer skills. It can be used effectively but it takes some focus, timing and smart use of AP to get your skills back.

- Cry of Frustration - My favourite. Great for Resurrection skills, healing skills which could compromise your AP (Healing Signet and Troll Unguent), interrupting Meteors and other big AoE nukes and, on top of all that, it is an area interrupt. Half a dozen $#&! messages is very satisfying.

I ran with Discord heroes in 98%+ of areas because they're great at surviving, dealing damage and, of course, spiking which synergizes with AP well. Sometimes it is necessary to force heroes to use a condition skill like Weaken Armor or Enfeebling Blood so that the hex/condition requirement is met for Discord. Eventually, exploding minions will spread a lot of poison and ease that burden on you.

I've tried VoR builds but the damage is mediocre, the recharges of those Dom spells are long and they're energy-hungry whilst providing nothing in the way of defense. Mesmers in their pure form are not the best at PvE but they're the best at AP sin spamming in my opinion.

Xenomortis · Sep 08, 2009, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Who says it has to last 6 seconds? Balance is balance. The idea behind suggestion is adding AoE.

Too powerful? I don't care really. Other classes each have 10 skills that are "too powerful".

If the AoE blackout didn't last at least 4 or 5 seconds, it is already inferior to knockdown. Even then, it would be questionable if it was actually worth the effort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Well, I do. I want powercreep on equal footing. And I don't care. True, I don't like skills being OP and UP - I like balance. But I really don't care anymore. If others can have OP skills then give some to mesmer. If none to mesmer, none to others. Fairness isn't when one class has no OP stuff and everyone else does.

A.Net have shown they cannot buff skills to bring them up to par without making them absurd. I do not want to encourage more. Our viewpoints here are clearly different with different reasoning behind them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Personally, I've thought that a lot of Necromancer skills, especially Curses, should be Mesmer skills instead. Reckless Haste? That's manipulating the mind - a Mesmer thing. SS? Elite Empathy. Same with SV. The Necromancer would still have the core of the MoP build, the orders build, and the MM build... and I'd consider giving them the mandragor-in-a-can stuff as well.

This is a bit iffy. There is clearly overlap and this isn't necessarily a bad thing.
If someone is making it so half your attacks have missed, you might say you were cursed. If bad things happen to you when you do something, you may say you were cursed. I'm more questioning how much Empathy is a mesmer skill.*
Stuff like Mark of Subversion are clearly mesmer skills that have been tacked onto the blood line - they really are not useful for a necromancer.

Condition stuff is a necromancer thing - stuff like Virulence (useless though it is) fits nicely. The mesmer skills; Fevered Dreams and Extend Conditions... perhaps. It certainly fits the necromancer.
Skills like Phantom Pain and Shrinking Armour I would say are very much mesmer skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

While I can't disagree with the conclusion, altering the Mesmer to be more suitable for PvE conditions is probably a lot easier than rebuilding PvE from the ground up to be more Mesmer-friendly... in GW, anyway. That may be something they're working towards in GW2.

Thing is, the mesmer's play style is incompatible with PvE. If we change the mesmer to suit it, we'd really just be turning it into a damage dealer. Of course, changing PvE at this stage is impossible - hence a total restart is in order (Guild Wars 2).

The Josip · Sep 08, 2009, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If the AoE blackout didn't last at least 4 or 5 seconds, it is already inferior to knockdown. Even then, it would be questionable if it was actually worth the effort.

You just want to complain endlessly. Either it's too OP or too UP for you, there is no middle ground, and you close your eyes and refuse to consider solutions.

Yes, solutions are possible. Yes, ANet can do it (sorry but GW is still by far one of the most balanced MMO's/RPG's). No, they didn't want to bother with mesmer.

That's pretty much it. I don't see a point in typing posts in how mesmer is like this and how it's like that, I prefer constructive approach. But since you're just going to seek flaws, it's pointless.

Daesu · Sep 09, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mesmers can spread multiple conditions better, yes.

No they can't. Necros can spread conditions far easier.

Quote:

Other primary attributes can't (obvious to even new players).

Wrong. Energy from soul reaping can be used for offense as well as defense.

Cuilan · Sep 09, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Give me a skill that can spread multiple conditions to multiple enemies well enough for a build.

upier · Sep 09, 2009, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Give me a skill that can spread multiple conditions to multiple enemies well enough for a build.

Foul Feast + Plague Sending?
Or if I remember correctly FF + Contagion was quite popular.

Plus I imagine the above users meant that the necro is far better at applying conditions though their own skills than a mesmer. There is nothing a mesmer has that can rival Enfeebling and Weaken.

Cuilan · Sep 09, 2009, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Plus I imagine the above users meant

Like how he quotes me and replies about the wrong thing?

upier · Sep 09, 2009, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Like how he quotes me and replies about the wrong thing?

Let's be honest - that was part of your "other primary attributes can not be used defensively and offensively"-post and I STILL do not understand what you meant with that.

Xenomortis · Sep 09, 2009, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Give me a skill that can spread multiple conditions to multiple enemies well enough for a build.

You mean a necro skill?

I'm going to say Fevered Dreams anyway and my experience tells me that a necromancer runs that better than a mesmer, if only because Soul Reaping is stupid.

But if unconvinced there, it would still be Necromancers. They have two very useful AoE condition causing skills - Enfeebling Blood and Weaken Armour. Plague Sending along with several ways to inflict conditions on yourself, not to mention Foul Feast. They are also the only profession to have access to Disease outside of PvE skills.

Daesu · Sep 09, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Give me a skill that can spread multiple conditions to multiple enemies well enough for a build.

A necro skill to spread multiple conditions to multiple enemies? Plague Sending and Contagion.

If it is spreading multiple conditions to one enemy, you have Plague Signet, Plague Touch, and Virulence.

Often you only want to spread the condition that you want to multiple enemies. For that, you have Enfeebling Blood, Death Nova, Putrid Flesh, Tainted Flesh, and Weaken Armor.

The necro is a master of conditions, and the Plague skills serve both as offense as well as defense, since they also remove conditions from yourself. Mesmer condition inflicting skills tend to be more conditional (pun unintended).

However I would consider the best mesmer condition inflicting skill to be Fevered Dreams because daze is awesome and there are not many non-pve skills that can cause that. But like what Xeno said, a N/Me would probably do better with it due to soul reaping and it can effective enough at level 12 illusion.

draxynnic · Sep 09, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

This is a bit iffy. There is clearly overlap and this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Not from the point of the Necromancer, since they get all the good stuff and people have said, in this thread I believe, that Mesmers are basically the poor cousins of Necromancers. Sounds to me like the overlap goes a little too far and a little too in the favour of the Necro to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If someone is making it so half your attacks have missed, you might say you were cursed. If bad things happen to you when you do something, you may say you were cursed. I'm more questioning how much Empathy is a mesmer skill.*
Stuff like Mark of Subversion are clearly mesmer skills that have been tacked onto the blood line - they really are not useful for a necromancer.

Except that's not the flavour of Reckless Haste - the name evokes an image of the target being hoodwinked into attacking so... enthusiastically that their accuracy suffers in the process. Sounds like a Mesmer trick to me. Spiteful Spirit by name actually sounds more Ritualist to me, if Ritualists existed at the time - it summons a spirit to attack the target and nearby allies of the target when that target does anything. However, that could easily be reflavoured as a persistant combined Wandering Eye/Mistrust-type effect without the actual interrupts, where the victim flails around striking friend as well as foe.

Empathy is simply a matter of making the enemy feel the pain of those they attack - generally a mental trick rather than a necromantic trick when the two are seperate rather than being one generic "curse bitch".

Generally, my rules of thumb here are twofold: In concept, mesmer stuff attacks the mind, and necromancer stuff attacks the body (although I'd leave fear-related stuff with the Necromancer due to death associations. At least some of it). In mechanics... Mesmer skills should mess with a player's mind and force them to make difficult decisions (do I keep attacking and trigger the SS or do I stop and stop doing my job until the hex is removed?) while Necromancer skills are more things you just have to put up with (being Weakened means you'll do less damage but in and of itself it won't mean someone stops attacking entirely).

Having considered that, my idea of the allowed overlap of the Necromancer into Mesmer territory basically boils down into degen hexes and stuff that has a distinct Necromancer tinge to it (so Insidious Parasite, Soul Leech, and, yes, Mark of Subversion are allowable overlap as they all involve lifesteal, a distinct Necromancer feature). Of course, this isn't necessarily one way, which is why I'd give Epidemic-like skills to the Necromancer - because really, Epidemic sounds necromancerish and is all about spreading conditions of the body... a Necromancer trait. End result? A clear divide between what Mesmers do and what Necromancers do, so that each has its 'thing', rather than the current situation where the Mesmer is often seen as the Necromancer's redheaded stepcousin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Condition stuff is a necromancer thing - stuff like Virulence (useless though it is) fits nicely. The mesmer skills; Fevered Dreams and Extend Conditions... perhaps. It certainly fits the necromancer.
Skills like Phantom Pain and Shrinking Armour I would say are very much mesmer skills.

That's pretty much in alignment with my thoughts on the matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Thing is, the mesmer's play style is incompatible with PvE. If we change the mesmer to suit it, we'd really just be turning it into a damage dealer. Of course, changing PvE at this stage is impossible - hence a total restart is in order (Guild Wars 2).

If that's really what is needed... is it worse than having a profession deemed useless? Of course, nerfing the others should also be an option...

Cuilan · Sep 09, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

So the only couple of skills that spread multiple have you also effect and/or sacrifice life...

And mesmers still have fast casting to get those conditions up to have the most out of those skills.

maxxfury · Sep 10, 2009, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

So the only couple of skills that spread multiple have you also effect and/or sacrifice life...

And mesmers still have fast casting to get those conditions up to have the most out of those skills.

And necro's STILL have more energy to recast them and do other stuff and still have stupid amounts of free energy.

Im a mesmer as my main Char..And the best thing a mes can do cond wise is a Fevered dream witha /elem secondary for some easy blind..the thing a n/me CANT do. And on THAT note..i do think the Me/E Dreamer beats the Ne/Me dreamer even if it does have to spec for some Eman. wether or not its easier to pay it on Nec primary.

Daesu · Sep 10, 2009, 06:52 AM // 06:52

The advantage of going with Me/E is GoLE, but if you have to cast energy management skills before your spells then that somewhat defeats the advantage of having fast casting in the first place.

Passive energy management like soul reaping is still better and you dont usually need to sacrifice a skill slot for it either and even if you need to bring SoLS, it is more worth it than most energy management skills out there.

Cuilan · Sep 10, 2009, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Drain Delusions helps to cause conditions and acts as enough energy management.

Xenomortis · Sep 10, 2009, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Drain Delusions helps to cause conditions and acts as enough energy management.

It can cause two conditions - Cracked Armour and Deep Wound through Shrinking Armour and Phantom Pain respectively.*
Both of those are more effectively applied with Finish Him, provided the condition is met.

*It can also potentially inflict dazed if the previous were combined with Fevered Dreams.

draxynnic · Sep 10, 2009, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The advantage of going with Me/E is GoLE, but if you have to cast energy management skills before your spells then that somewhat defeats the advantage of having fast casting in the first place.

Passive energy management like soul reaping is still better and you dont usually need to sacrifice a skill slot for it either and even if you need to bring SoLS, it is more worth it than most energy management skills out there.

Maxx's point was that the combination allows use of blind and the Mandragor Effect on one character, which the N/Me can't do. Of course, you could do it as an E/Me, but if you can survive without energy storage than it's kinda redundant.