Curse

Coast · Sep 05, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

but mesmers rock in pve

Daesu · Sep 05, 2009, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mesmers can carry a staff... Fast casting is built in. You did a poor job in countering that argument.

So carrying a staff makes them unique?

Quote:

Mesmers hex and spread conditions? They have a role, they aren't jack of all trades, and they're flexible at the same time. Can't see how that can be confused.

And necros cant hex and spread conditions better than mesmers?

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They have fast casting which can be used offensively or defensively.

And other primary attributes cant?

Cuilan · Sep 05, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Never said that carrying a staff made them unique, but it didn't seem you understood that they can.

Mesmers can spread multiple conditions better, yes.

Other primary attributes can't (obvious to even new players).

draxynnic · Sep 06, 2009, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Thanks. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Let me take this build an example: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=16

AP mesmers are currently quite popular because of the skill recharge and some amount of energy return when the target dies. But to use AP you need to invest in Deadly Arts, some points in Inspiration for your energy management skills, some points into domination for your offensive skills, and lastly some points into fast casting. That is a total of 4 attributes to invest in.

An AP build for a curse necro, can invest in Deadly Arts, Soul Reaping, and Curse. That is only a total of 3 attributes plus, unlike the mesmer, you dont need to bring energy management skills if you dont want to, so you have the full 8 skill slots to play with.

No offense intended to Josip, but an AP Mesmer should have Arcane Echo stapled to their bar nicely between Auspicious Incantation and EVAS. Don't necessarily use it for every fight, but become an assassin-producing MACHINE when you need to, and if you're using shouts you really do need the AE to justify not being a Necro. In my experience, the remaining attributes are enough - you're not exactly relying on your Illusion or Domination skills for the majority of your damage.

Really, though, it's Arcane Echo that justifies the AP mesmer over the necromancer, not Fast Casting. (Those two Assassins, incidentally, can then be adding to the MoP nuke if you have one.)

In more general uses, why have Fast Casting when you can have Mindbender or a 40/40 set? Simply put, so you can get the same overall effect as Mindbender or the 40/40 set without having to invest in either. Opportunity costs are what economics is all about. Even without considering the opportunity cost, a hero can't use Mindbender, and the 40/40 set may not grant you the benefit when you really needed it.

On the whole, outside of superoptimised teams, mesmers have a role, albeit a composite role that probably does boil down to "like a Necromancer with interrupts, but less synergy with physicals". Certainly, though, in the all-physicals group you're almost certainly better off handing your disruption off to the Ranger who benefits from the buffs - but not everyone gets the opportunity to play in parties optimised to that level all the time, and the reason they don't may not actually be related to technical playing ability as Xenomortis seems to think.

Bill Clinton · Sep 06, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Fast casting animation has a hard limit.

Your other points were decent points and have been addressed already, so I wont go into those - but when you say this what exactly is your point?
If you're going to hit a cap for fast casting the speed and which you're casting is insanely fast. Level 16 fast casting + mind bender causes 1/4 spells cast like stances and shouts, what does it matter if the cap has been met?

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

No offense intended to Josip, but an AP Mesmer should have Arcane Echo stapled to their bar nicely between Auspicious Incantation and EVAS. Don't necessarily use it for every fight, but become an assassin-producing MACHINE when you need to,.

This! Those double assasins are really underestimated.

My favorite bar for discord is:
Assasins promise, You move like a dawrf, Finish him, Auspicious incantation, Arcane echo, EVASS, optional, optional (usually interupts, enchant removal, extra hexes.. whatever the area calls for)
With the way I'm specced (16 fast cast, 12 deadly, 4 inspiration) I often pump out 5-6 assassins on the battlefield at once. This starts dealing a hell of a lot of dps as well as extra support (foes smash the assassins with their meteors in time for you minions to get in)

This one pve role where mesmers are far better than the other classes. Any other class simply cant fast enough enough to throw out that many assassins. Even with mindbender its not going to happen because you're loosing Finish him or you move like a dwarf, you wont get the fast enough kills to trigger AP before the first two assasins are dead. Auspicious even at such a low spec and Assasins promise are plenty of energy, despite what everyone is saying about the issue with having to spread attribs thin.

draxynnic · Sep 07, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

More importantly, they simply can't combine Assassin's Promise and Arcane Echo at all. The only other combination that can have both is (as would be expected) the A/Me, and even if you put nothing in Fast Casting you're better off doing that with the Mesmer primary.

On the other hand, this isn't really playing a Mesmer - it's abusing broken PvE skills.

The Josip · Sep 07, 2009, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Thanks for AE tip, I'll try it out. I'm still relatively new to PvE skills because I've been taking longs breaks from GW every now and then. And the build I used so far has been extremely efficient and very fun as well.
I'm not a huge fan of centering entire mesmer build around one trick (EVAS), but it might be fun for a while, who knows. And I do like to focus on class strengths regardless of what I play.

btw, 16 fc? I thought minor runes are the way to go.

But I did notice one thing - with the build I currently use I am among those who die the least in HM groups. Because all my dmg is armor ignoring, I can basically stay far back and smack whoever is nearest, and if someone is running after me I YMLD him. So I'm pretty sure sup rune won't hurt except in rare occasions.

Quote:

On the other hand, this isn't really playing a Mesmer - it's abusing broken PvE skills.

It's still playing a Mesmer. Well sort of. Besides, what exactly are others doing right now? Abusing PvE skills and 'potions'. Besides, it's not my fault Mesmer has no strong PvE skills in its own line. Curses line is also very similiar to Mesmer skills, and if it didn't have Barbs, MoP and SS, who would use it? ANet could've given to Mesmers as well skills that are very good at PvE but suck at PvP (let's think of minions necro has, for instance) - but they didn't. So although I'd prefer to play mesmer as mesmer, I've zero remorse about using PvE skills.

Xenomortis · Sep 07, 2009, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

It's still playing a Mesmer. Well sort of. Besides, what exactly are others doing right now? Abusing PvE skills and 'potions'.

There's using PvE skills and then there's PvE skills forming the core of your build. A build revolving around AP, YMLAD, EVAS and FH is very universal and the core of the build is formed of PvE skills.
By contrast, an AP-MoP bar will have PvE skills in it and the bar may be very similar to the previous one, but the core of the build is Barbs, MoP, Rigor Mortis and AP. You could argue that EVAS is part of the core build, but the bar will function well without it.

Mesmer struggle more to find a truly effective and useful build where the core isn't based on PvE skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Curses line is also very similiar to Mesmer skills, and if it didn't have Barbs, MoP and SS, who would use it?

Add Reckless Haste and Enfeebling Blood to that list. Those skills are a defining feature of the Curses line and outstrip anything the Mesmer has. Citing skills like that and then trying to dismiss the line is rather foolish - the same could be done with various other lines.

When I pay a mesmer, I cannot help avoid at least one of two feelings:
1. Am I actually being useful and is it worth doing what I'm doing?
2. Would a necro or ele do this job better?

Those two things are what put me off my mesmer. I can sort of get into playing them, but it doesn't last long.

The Josip · Sep 07, 2009, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

There's using PvE skills and then there's PvE skills forming the core of your build.

Of course, I know that. But as I said, what are others doing? Ursaning? Saving Themselves? Imbagoning?

It is what it is. It's not my fault that ANet did not give me mesmer skills to make PvE builds.

Quote:

Mesmer struggle more to find a truly effective and useful build where the core isn't based on PvE skills.

Yup, but one can still make a build that can be played in PvE normally. Sure, you won't be plowing like some classes with ridiculous skills, but at least it's playable.

Quote:

Those two things are what put me off my mesmer.

I know. That's why I had lvl20 mesmer in Prophecies, and then despite of playing it constantly in PvP and loving it, I just could not force myself to have PvE mesmer which.. wasn't really able to do that much since it just wasn't adapted to PvE at all. So I deleted it.
Then I made a mesmer after EotN came out for the fun of it and to be honest I like it. It has the style, and it has versatility. Versatility in my book is better attribute than pure power of imbagon, because it allows for more creativity while still being able to do PvE missions and quests.

Xenomortis · Sep 07, 2009, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Of course, I know that. But as I said, what are others doing? Ursaning? Saving Themselves? Imbagoning?

Ok... Casters first.

Eles: Nuking builds are still common. SH and SF do sort of work with cracked armor (though EBSoH is advisable). Meteor Shower is good for constant knockdown. Then there's Earth magic, some more AoE damage and various defensive stuff. Air magic has some useful things, though apart from blind Curses does it all better.
Oh, and Ether Renewal Protection bars - the bars frequently contain no PvE only skills.

Necromancers: MMs and Curses - SS, AP-MoP etc. Orders is nice too. Again, PvE skills tend not to feature in the core of the builds.

Monks: WoH Hybrid bars are common and effective. Smiting is sometimes nice.

Rits: Spirit Spam. Channeling/Resto support (though this is less effective). Same thing on PvE skills here.

Physicals - damage is generally their aim and SY a nice afterthought (Godmode and Imbagons are an exception):

Warriors: DSlash is only one of the things they can do. Whilst Whirlwind Attack is usually considered a core skill in their builds, the builds will work without it (to an extent anyway). The core of the Earthshaker build doesn't include SY and ES is considered a very useful build.

Ranger: Hmm... I'm less familiar with ranger builds for HM. Splinter Barrage certainly doesn't necessitate PvE skills. Triple Shot, Asuran Scan and IatS may feature, but aren't generally necessary.

Assassins: Crit Agility is the big one here. It is perhaps the most insane IAS skill in the game, giving both a high attack speed boost and an armour boost. However, this is used to augment builds and you can run builds without it - MS-DB spam doesn't require any PvE skills at all. SY is nice, but not necessary here and damage is the real aim.

Dervish: AoHM... Well, Scythes can work without it, but it's a very appreciated damage boost. Otherwise the core of the builds they use don't feature PvE skills.

Paragons: You have me here. If you aren't running an Imbagon you might as well be a hero. That's a bar built around a PvE skill. Really, paragons have little else to merit bringing them along for PvE.

Now, was that really necessary? A mesmer's disruption is seldom required, so you might as well bring an ele or warrior with knockdown, or a necro with debilitation and run a load of damage at the same time. Mesmers just do not compare in terms of damage.

And do people still run Ursan?

Edit: A little clarifaction:
When I say the core of a build, I mean the skills necessary for the build to function and be recognisable as that sort of build (but more beyond the elite skill used (though that leads to ambiguity)).

The Josip · Sep 07, 2009, 10:30 PM // 22:30

I think you're missing my point but never mind now.

maxxfury · Sep 07, 2009, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Sadly i think WITHOUT abusing pve skills with mesmers are left pretty lacking:

With Dom your basically looking at reactive hex's with Vor or Esurge.
Passable results but downtimes and the fact its mostly goin to be reactive make it kinda blah these days..compared to what others can do

With Illusion, your looking at Clumsiness and arcane echo'd wandering eye's powered by a lyssas aura or Ap. Which can output some pretty good damage as mobs always hit thru them, even the casters. But again, compared to what a nec can output...its pretty blah.

Inspiration, lol. that is all as far as basing an effective pve build around it

sad times.

Your pretty much left with Abusing PVE skills with ap+echo or running some Mandragor in a can bar, or resigning your self to some second rate bar that doesnt really stand out and make any waves.

Sad times really. Reactive hex's blow, and the necro make the mes look like its red headed stepchild for pve...

TLDR: Mes main advantage in abusing pve spells over other classes is AP + Ae, and if you dont abuse it your left mostly in the dust! Even more so without the OLD cop.

The Josip · Sep 08, 2009, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Considering all the recent uber buffs to Assassin and Ritualist, I expect a massive boost to Mesmer class as well.

maxxfury · Sep 08, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Considering all the recent uber buffs to Assassin and Ritualist, I expect a massive boost to Mesmer class as well.

id settle for an Unnerf

rebalance the skills recharges without taking MOR into account...
(stupid MOR!!)
Give back inspiration for giggles!

Make Spiritual pain aoe viable again

a good solid fun nuke

and pretty purple to boot!!

The Josip · Sep 08, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Im not a fan of ele skills like Spiritual Pain. I'd rather see PvE versions of some fun mesmer skills.

Heck, if Melandru's Assault can hit nearby foes (a what?), if Ritualist has instant cast spirits now and 3-in-one spirit skill, if Assassin's have Untouchable skill and wield scythe better than Dervish, if Elementalists have rebuffed versions of historically OP skills and heal better than monks, if Paragons have party near-immunity skill etc, then what I expect in next update is buffing mesmer in this way:

Blackout - AoE
Overload - higher overall dmg, lower non-conditional dmg, 1sec recharge
Shatter Enchantment - AoE
Shatter Delusions - AoE
Power Flux - tweaked. If target foe is casting a spell, that spell is cast on the caster (in short, if enemy is casting meteor shower, meteors fall on him as and dmg him as they would dmg you). If nothing else, at least will be used for fun, unlike current useless skill.

In any case, no AoE no PvE.

Ugh · Sep 08, 2009, 01:16 AM // 01:16

In PvP, Mesmers and Rangers are the hardest classes (unless you're just spamming VoR, Empathy, etc). In PvE, no class is difficult. But, Mesmer is the worst and "worst" is sometimes interchangable with "difficult."

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Heck, if Melandru's Assault can hit nearby foes(a what?), if Ritualist has instant cast spirits now and 3-in-one spirit skill, if Assassin's have Untouchable skill and wield scythe better than Dervish, if Elementalists have rebuffed versions of historically OP skills and heal better than monks, if Paragons have party near-immunity skill

At 16 Beast Mastery, Melandru's Assault deals 28 damage to nearby foes. It doesn't belong in this list.

Xenomortis · Sep 08, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Im not a fan of ele skills like Spiritual Pain. I'd rather see PvE versions of some fun mesmer skills...

Suggestions...

Whilst those suggestions would probably make the mesmer see play, they'd either be too powerful (total AoE shutdown for 5-6 seconds on a non-elite? not sure how that'll work out) or try and turn the mesmer into something it isn't.

I'm going to shift stance slightly here. The problem with Mesmer in PvE isn't that it has poor skills or A-Net haven't buffed them properly. The problem with the Mesmer in PvE, is that the two have become more and more incompatible as PvE has changed since the initial release. The design of PvE is the problem, not the design of the Mesmer.

While it would be nice if the Mesmer could become a valuable addition to a general PvE team, I do not want to see more powercreep.

maxxfury · Sep 08, 2009, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I'm going to shift stance slightly here. The problem with Mesmer in PvE isn't that it has poor skills or A-Net haven't buffed them properly. The problem with the Mesmer in PvE, is that the two have become more and more incompatible as PvE has changed since the initial release. The design of PvE is the problem, not the design of the Mesmer.

Oh how id love to use panic on a mob and have them actually be affected by it! and have them call me a ****end! for slapping shame on their heals :P or making a charr axe dude stop hitting me and sit down cos he has no energy/adrenalin and is constantly blind

It was nice back in the day when a mes made a difference to, for example thirsty river

shutting down one monk boss and backfiring the other

/rose tinted glasses?

SaDuFam · Sep 08, 2009, 03:13 AM // 03:13

I have three PvE mesmer chars. The 1st one took three years to work himself through all the campaigns including EoTN from the early years of GW. The 2nd one took 3 weeks to finish all campaigns after the released of Nightfall. The third one took only 5 hours to level to lvl 20 and about 5 hours per day over 6 days to complete all campaigns.

The first one I played mostly with guildees and pugs through all the missions (It was fun as not many self proclaimed veterans to snub others and trumpeting their titles ). The 2nd Mesmer did only the harder missions with PUGs, and the 3rd Mermer just steam rolled all campaigns (NM) with heros (Heros FTW).

Conclusion: Mesmer is no longer the hardest profession. It is the hardest profession only because you want to play Mesmer (or what others want you to play) the way that is not suitable for PvE environments.

The Josip · Sep 08, 2009, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

At 16 Beast Mastery, Melandru's Assault deals 28 damage to nearby foes. It doesn't belong in this list.

You missed the point of that example. I put it there to show that ANet doesn't always balance skills in a logical way. Just in case I get some replies "that makes no sense"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

they'd either be too powerful (total AoE shutdown for 5-6 seconds on a non-elite? not sure how that'll work out)

Who says it has to last 6 seconds? Balance is balance. The idea behind suggestion is adding AoE.

Too powerful? I don't care really. Other classes each have 10 skills that are "too powerful".

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While it would be nice if the Mesmer could become a valuable addition to a general PvE team, I do not want to see more powercreep.

Well, I do. I want powercreep on equal footing. And I don't care. True, I don't like skills being OP and UP - I like balance. But I really don't care anymore. If others can have OP skills then give some to mesmer. If none to mesmer, none to others. Fairness isn't when one class has no OP stuff and everyone else does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaDuFam

Conclusion: Mesmer is no longer the hardest profession.

No, the conclusion based on premises you typed is that PvE got more and more nerfed, either directly or indirectly by buffing skills and 'henchmen'.