Curse

Cuilan · Oct 27, 2009, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Which is why SoI is mainly a giggle elite, no reason to lose an elite to try and copy other professions bars.

Actually you can do the opposite. You can do bars that they couldn't normally do or as well.

maxxfury · Oct 28, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

The MAIN problem with SOI for me is,

You only get 8 skills, and in pve you should run pve skills, or you miss out on more than you gain generally.

That means 4 skills taken with you elite and pve skills, leaving you only 4 skills to buff with SOI.

For them 4 skills its generally a much better idea to actually use the attributes and a FREE elite slot instead of SOI. As break point for the skills generally dont mean shit for most of the stuff people run with it, like fire skills ect. And if you do run illusion skills as well as pve skills then you cut out the need for SOI almost entirely. Making it a total waste of a slot.

*pve skills should be taken as r10, as they are cake to level in no time.

Cuilan · Oct 28, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

SOI buffs Kurzick/Luxon skills, etc.

maxxfury · Oct 28, 2009, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

SOI buffs Kurzick/Luxon skills, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

*pve skills should be taken as r10, as they are cake to level in no time.

Takes a matter of a few weeks to farm a high rank in them via SC's. Without dedicating all your time to doin it.

Even then anything past 7~ isnt worth using SOI for. Its just lazy.

Black Metal · Oct 28, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Thanks for the suggestions so far. The curser and illusionary weapon builds sound intriguing and fun, could builds be provided please? I'm unfamiliar with most mes skills so if left to my imagination I'd probably have a fail build. As I just got my mes out of Istan yesterday, hopefully the pve skills won't require high rank.

Arctica · Oct 28, 2009, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Sometimes I run an SS build with Arcaine echo and Mark of Pain on my mesmer.

A bit energy intensive, so you will need some e-management skills from the inspiration line (drain enchantement, energy tap or whatever), but after putting your hexes on your targets, you only have to wait for recharge and you regenerate energy in the meantime anyway.

Another build I sometimes use is something like this:
[build prof=Mesmer/Assassin FastCasting=12 DominationMagic=3 InspirationMagic=9 DeadlyArts=9][Auspicious Incantation][Arcane Echo][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support][Assassin's Promise][Mind Wrack][Cry of Pain][Power Drain][Sunspear Rebirth Signet][/build]

Not the typical mesmer build, but quite effective.

Tenebrae · Oct 28, 2009, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Takes a matter of a few weeks to farm a high rank in them via SC's. Without dedicating all your time to doin it.

Even then anything past 7~ isnt worth using SOI for. Its just lazy.

Lazy ? lol , spending "a few weeks" ( cough a few MONTHS ) to rise ALL your titles instead using SoI properly is just stupid pal. Also , it works with stolen skills wich is really funny in pve , you should try.

Sometimes it seems to me that some ppl is only playing to reach fast time kills bla bla bla farm farm farm bla bla bla and so on ...... well , if thats fun for you , great , but there are some other ppl that plays to have fun and they are not "better" or "worse" because some killing speed times.

gremlin · Oct 28, 2009, 10:11 AM // 10:11

I think the point about mesmers is either you like them in which case you put the time in and learn to play one well or you play something else.

While its true a mesmer can play any other caster fairly well in the early part of the game, later on it will fail miserably even in pve.

upier · Oct 28, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Lazy ? lol , spending "a few weeks" ( cough a few MONTHS ) to rise ALL your titles instead using SoI properly is just stupid pal. Also , it works with stolen skills wich is really funny in pve , you should try.

Sweet baby Jesus!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Sometimes it seems to me that some ppl is only playing to reach fast time kills bla bla bla farm farm farm bla bla bla and so on ...... well , if thats fun for you , great , but there are some other ppl that plays to have fun and they are not "better" or "worse" because some killing speed times.

"Fun" is subjective.
Kill speed times aren't.

So unless you share the idea of what is "fun" with the person you are giving advice to, basing advice on "fun" will most likely lead to completely worthless advice.

Smarty · Oct 28, 2009, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Metal

Thanks for the suggestions so far. The curser and illusionary weapon builds sound intriguing and fun, could builds be provided please? I'm unfamiliar with most mes skills so if left to my imagination I'd probably have a fail build. As I just got my mes out of Istan yesterday, hopefully the pve skills won't require high rank.

My Lyssa's Curse build was originally designed so that I could take the place of the curser in a 4-man sabway team when VQing around the Ascalon area with a friend. The core of the build is therefore Lyssa's aura, enfeebling blood, barbs, rip enchant and necrosis. I've played around with the remaining three skills and the attribute spread whilst keeping the core of the build unchanged, and the variant listed below is the one that gave me the best balance of casting speed, energy regen and damage output.

OQRDA5kHTtM2BlB3g7iyl7OCAA
Curses 12 Insp 9 FC 9 - add minor insp and FC runes.
Lyssa's Aura, enfeebling blood, barbs, necrosis, EVAS, PI, rip enchant, res sig.

If you don't want to or can't yet use Eye of the North skills, replace skills 5 6 and 8 with either parasitic bond and a 5-10 energy curse of your choice, or auspicious incantation and a 15 energy necro hex of your choice, plus SS rebirth sig. If you want more energy at the cost of slower casting and less damage, change the att spread to 11 curses, 12 insp, 6 FC.

Usage: keep Lyssa's Aura up during combat by spamming necrosis on suitable targets between using your other skills as normal. You can't cover Lyssa's Aura because it renews every time you cast a spell on an enemy, so don't bother trying - if it gets stripped suck it up and wait for the recharge and don't spam too much while it's down. With practice you'll learn which mobs use enchant removal and when they use them so you can time the initial cast to avoid it being stripped instantly.

*

The IW dervish build I used to use came from a thread on GWO (Lord Helmos iirc?), was designed for a hero rather than a player, and is several skill updates old so I can't vouch for its current effectiveness - change the skills around and add PvE ones as needed. Be warned it will royally suck anywhere with heavy enchant removal. The build was designed for use with a sword. I have no idea if it would do higher DPS with a scythe or not, as for me it was purely a fun build for posing around in NM with, and a sword looked so much better with male mes Monument armour than a scythe ever could.

OQplAIB7gpqr4ECMBsXxLBe6efFA
Illu 11 Wind 10 Earth 8 Insp 6 FC 2 - add mes runes of your choice (I think I had sup illu and minor insp and FC).
IW, channelling, mystic regen, vital boon, conviction, mystic twister, mystic healing, res sig.

Usage: Keep your enchants and stance up during combat as much as possible. Keep IW and channelling covered. Use mystic twister in the middle of groups when your enchants are all up. Use mystic healing if your party needs it.

Have fun!

Tenebrae · Oct 28, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Sweet baby Jesus!

So ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

"Fun" is subjective.
Kill speed times aren't.

2+2=4 , any other statement we all know ?. Killing speed doesnt depend solely on 1 char of an 4-8 ( even 12 ) party so its pointless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So unless you share the idea of what is "fun" with the person you are giving advice to, basing advice on "fun" will most likely lead to completely worthless advice.

Congratulations , you just joined the completely worthless post club ! now we are 2 members , happy ?

.

maxxfury · Oct 28, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Lazy ? lol , spending "a few weeks" ( cough a few MONTHS ) to rise ALL your titles instead using SoI properly is just stupid pal. Also , it works with stolen skills wich is really funny in pve , you should try.

ironically enough I AM lazy, i havent maxed a single title on ANY of my toons

but then thats also on principle that i dont believe in the idea of the active titles. and dont wish to have any maxed on my account, all in 50+ weeks since beta.

(tho i could quite happily hit a stinky gh in a couple of days if i so desired)

But yes, for a friend i maxed his kurzick rank in just under 4 weeks doin AB and sc's in MY spare time, and running through eotn and gettin him r7/8/9 when i had nothing to do on my own account. so yes WEEKS.

Loosing an elite skill is "just stupid pal" instead of getting your ranks anywere near decent levels, which can be done after one run through and some dabbling in the areas pretty casually. Add to the fact SOI DOESNT affect shouts or skills, only spells.... 2 of the best pve (caster) pve skills YMLAD and FH arent affected, and most of the others dont need a max req to do whats needed due to the way they work, based on durations like wards or that they just dont scale that highly after the "pve skill buff" that compressed the rank vs output of them all(meaning lower req for the same affect)

And the "stealing" skills from the domination line are actually hindered by a higher attribute level...sadtimes!

*ill admit maybe i should have said based on a decent rank not max. but hey, you give advice here based on people actually making an affort on their toon, otherwise giving blatanlty second rate advice based on lazyness, doesnt help anyone.

The Drunkard · Oct 29, 2009, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Okay...then I submit I use the +1 cons on the real primary, now my stats are still +2 higher than yours.

The TC is asking for ALTERNATIVES for builds that use a mesmer primary that can preform like a primary. Will a mesmer be able to outperform a necro or an elementalist because of it's primary? No. Unless you are doing HM in an advanced area or an elite mission, a few attribute points will not make much of a difference. Still, people are so narrow-minded to optimal builds, which is quite stupid. I'd take a player with a poor skill bar that knows what they're doing over a player with a meta bar that mashes their face over the keyboard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Spirits aren't affected by FC, which makes a mesmer inferior to a spirit spammer in just about every way.

I can still farm all of Nicholas's locations in HM, so 5 points of extra damage doesn't bother me much. Armor of unfeeling and summon spirits pretty much nullifies spawning power, and the quick recharge of offensive spirits allows for constant turrets. The only thing I have a problem with is the high-energy costs rituals and painful bond spamming, which i can just slap on a hero.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

A mesmer can effectively pump out a rit's weapon spells, but spirits should be left to the rit.

Again, spawning power makes little difference in the duration (pve) so a few points of damage or regen shaved off is no big deal

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

As I said, mesmer can run any primary as their own, most of the time it's better, sometimes it's not,

I've read the opposite from your post. Again, in pve mesmers can play other primaries just as well with the use of the inspiration line and some cons. You've said they can play better builds in pvp, but not pve. Though interrupts are dominant in Pvp, how come when it comes to pve a mesmer's skillbar becomes utter crap?

A mesmer will always be weak in pve because it does nothing but shut things down- Pve is all about big numbers. But that dosen't mean that a mesmer running another primary is useless in a team (aside from the elite areas.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin;

While its true a mesmer can play any other caster fairly well in the early part of the game, later on it will fail miserably even in pve.

O HAI
MAH NME SI PVX WIKI WHER3 POPULAR BUILDS POSTED INCLUD3 M3SM3RS

Black Metal · Oct 29, 2009, 05:40 AM // 05:40

I agree with Drunkard. A Mes in PvE is great in HM areas, or bringing one for that dungeon boss or such, but when you roll a new one and just start out, it's basically a wand spiker. In my very limited Mes PvE experience, I can barely get off 1 skill on a low level red dot which does nothing because it needs to attack or cast 10 times for that skill I cast to be effective. This was the reason I started this thread -- something fast that does direct damage so I can be leading my h&h team, rather than wand spiking.

So, thanks to Mr Smartypants and PvX, I created this hybrid build today. I spent the day (besides 10 x 2nd Halloween quests) buying skills on my more advanced chars, then using my remaining derv tomes and buying another, plus buying an elite Mes tome, crafting an Illusion mask, farming a Myish's Scythe, and doing the Illusion of Weakness quest outside LA.

Illusionary Weaponry
Whirling Charge
Veil of Thorns
Armor of Sanctity
Mystic Twister
Mystic Regeneration
Illusion of Weakness
Cap Sig

Later on, as I get decent PvE skills, I'll drop Cap Sig and Mystic Twister. I'll report back after a bit of time with this one.

To Drunkard's words:
"The TC is asking for ALTERNATIVES for builds that use a mesmer primary that can preform like a primary. Will a mesmer be able to outperform a necro or an elementalist because of it's primary? No. Unless you are doing HM in an advanced area or an elite mission, a few attribute points will not make much of a difference. Still, people are so narrow-minded to optimal builds, which is quite stupid. I'd take a player with a poor skill bar that knows what they're doing over a player with a meta bar that mashes their face over the keyboard."

That's exactly the case. This noob Mes is my 13th character, and I'm playing one because I've played at least one of every other profession through every single PvE aspect of all 4 titles, including esoterica such as every quest I can find including Titan quests, capping all primary elites, doing every dungeon, getting all 3 protector titles on all 12 of my toons, etc etc. Once I've unlocked all these same aspects with my Mes, I can fit in niche builds that a Mes is clearly best at, when the situations calls; such as helping in a HM dungeon where shut down or massive interrupts is very helpful, VS farming, harassing people in AB, or whatever. I'm just trying to get to that end point as easily and fast as possible, and I'll make the switch from IW scyther or whatever to a more classical Mes role at that point.

gremlin · Oct 29, 2009, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Thanks to The Drunkard and Black Metal you have given me food for thought.

I am not entirely convinced but will try out some builds on my mesmers.

I still think that trying to take a mesmer through the game as say a necro or ritualist is a fail idea.

But yes when you have access to loads of skills and are an experienced player then such an idea could work well.

ogre_jd · Oct 29, 2009, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

A mesmer will always be weak in pve because it does nothing but shut things down- Pve is all about big numbers. But that dosen't mean that a mesmer running another primary is useless in a team (aside from the elite areas.)

Actually, a Mesmer will always be *strong* in PvE - as long as the player's any good. Just gotta be good at threat assessment so that you can concentrate on that one (sometimes two, rarely three or more) problematic foe(s) at a time so that the rest of the party has an easier time clearing out the rest of the enemy group instead of wasting time trying to hack its way through to the priority target. Also need good reflexes to interrupt well (sadly, while my threat assessment skills are decent, my reflexes are bad enough that, combined with aftercast delay, I can't even reliably interrupt Meteor Shower. :P But just because I can't be a good Mesmer myself doesn't mean I don't see how valuable they can be in PvE)

Smarty · Oct 29, 2009, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Thanks to The Drunkard and Black Metal you have given me food for thought.

I am not entirely convinced but will try out some builds on my mesmers.

I still think that trying to take a mesmer through the game as say a necro or ritualist is a fail idea.

But yes when you have access to loads of skills and are an experienced player then such an idea could work well.

There's nothing stopping you from playing a mesmer as a mesmer. Despite all the naysayers, mesmers do work in PvE and do make a big difference to how easy or hard a fight is if they're played correctly, even if you do sometimes get that niggling feeling that you could have done the job faster if you were playing another class.

The thing is, getting GWAMM requires you to play just the one character for weeks/months on end if you're going to get it done in a reasonable timeframe, and I don't know about anyone else but I get incredibly bored if I play the same sort of build day after day after day, so I like to play different character classes to get some variety. Running builds that relied mainly on their secondary profession gave me that variety without the need to change character so I could keep on making progress towards the title. Trying SoI protter in HM was definitely something different (and not something I'd want to try again in a hurry

)! Some of the builds worked better than others, some only worked in NM, some were surprisingly good even in HM. There's definitely no need to pigeonhole mesmers as either a PvP-only class or as being only able to run mesmer or PvE skills in PvE to be effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Metal

Illusionary Weaponry
Whirling Charge
Veil of Thorns
Armor of Sanctity
Mystic Twister
Mystic Regeneration
Illusion of Weakness
Cap Sig

Just read through your build again and realised you have no energy management. With the high cost and fast recharge times of those skills you are going to struggle for energy after the first two rounds of casting. You might want to add in your choice of channelling, power drain, drain enchantment, energy tap, auspicious incantation or air of superiority if you want to be able to keep going longer during protracted fights, or to keep ploughing from one fight to another without hanging around too long in between.

draxynnic · Oct 29, 2009, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Avoiding interrupts aren't the only reason you want Fast Casting. Being able to cast more spells in a given period of time is fairly useful - not to mention letting Me/N's beat competing Necros to the punch when it comes to using up corpses. Spamming skills with Fast Casting *is* limited, however, by the 0.75 aftercast delay on anything with a cast time.

Plus, it does help despite AI instant reflexes. It reduces the window of vulnerability, granting you a better chance of sneaking it in while the enemy is distracted with some other action or of avoiding your skill being collateral damage of a Cry of Frustration.

upier · Oct 30, 2009, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

The TC is asking for ALTERNATIVES for builds that use a mesmer primary that can preform like a primary. Will a mesmer be able to outperform a necro or an elementalist because of it's primary? No. Unless you are doing HM in an advanced area or an elite mission, a few attribute points will not make much of a difference. Still, people are so narrow-minded to optimal builds, which is quite stupid. I'd take a player with a poor skill bar that knows what they're doing over a player with a meta bar that mashes their face over the keyboard.

This is good player vs. bad player and completely irrelevant to mesmer vs. X.

Personally, I'd rather have a good player on the most effective build.

Smarty · Oct 30, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This is good player vs. bad player and completely irrelevant to mesmer vs. X.

Personally, I'd rather have a good player on the most effective build.

Some people want to play a mesmer primary and do not want to be limited to AP + PvE skills. If they want advice on how to play this way, is it really so hard to give them that advice, rather than telling them they're wrong/stupid/bad at the game/insert insult of your choice for wanting to run anything other than the current most imba bar? Newsflash: playing the game isn't about running only the most OP shit ever to win as fast as possible for every player out there. Some people have this heretical idea that they want to play for fun, and if they're going to do so with heroes and hench or with friends and guildies and not in your party, does it really matter to you that they're not playing the game in the most effective manner possible? GAH. Just answer the man's question and leave your opinions at the door for a change ffs.