Curse

AtomicMew · Dec 30, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Aint that just the sad truth of the pve mes!!

i'll steal a phrase the "original sin" of the Mes is that its fundimental "cool" stuff just 'isnt pve' in nature

or more to the point the "original sin" of pve is that it doesnt take well to the mes good attributes

It isn't entirely flat out true that "reactive hexing is bad". What is true is that "reactive hexing in Guild Wars is bad". That doesn't mean it has to be, and that doesn't mean the mes is fundamentally flawed.

maxxfury · Dec 30, 2009, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

It isn't entirely flat out true that "reactive hexing is bad". What is true is that "reactive hexing in Guild Wars is bad". That doesn't mean it has to be, and that doesn't mean the mes is fundamentally flawed.

i was refering to the edenial and mindfcuk aspects of the mes. which have zero effect and play no role at all vs the AI. NOT reactive hexing damage persay. Sorry if i wasnt clear on that

(occasional abuse of ancestors visage for some farming not counted, i dont count farming in the same block as pve, a totally different animal)

Its probably better to say that "reactive hexing isnt as good as other options" other than a flat out "reactive hexing sucks"

AndroBubbles · Jan 01, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Its the fact that if you compare the outputs of the two, one comes out SEVERELY lacking in semi-competent play in comparison.

Reactive hex's have a very low ceiling compared to Proactive (aka Mop ect)
Due to the fact you/your team control the output level of damage YOURSELF.

NOT letting the mobs, with their limited attack speeds and cast speeds do this for you.

ex, a mob attacking every 1.33 seconds or your team attacking 8 times a second...before you count the physical buffs you can stack vs the nothing you can stack on the mobs to make the proc the hex any faster.

Reactive hex's synergise with basically nothing but stuff that increases mobs attack / casting speeds, and they have a hard cap. Pro active hex's only cap is as many procs as you are willing to throw at it.

Vor/emp/backfire/SS/insidious/ect all fade into the background when compared to pro active, that its not even funny.

Back in Proph only days SS WAS a formidable skills, but thanks to the power creep its been left behind.

Nothing blows shit up faster now than a mop fueled physical assault.

Its not a fad it people understanding about mechanics.

I'm not really debating that proactive hexing is more effective when applied properly, but people think it's horrible in pve when I put VoR on a priority caster target and then apply pressure. When you want a monk/ele boss killed quickly, I like this method, since they're going to be doing mass amounts of reactive damage to themselves in a very short time.

A lot of people just seem to think that there's no happy medium, and that bothers me. (I'm not pointing fingers)

The Riven · Jan 01, 2010, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

A lot of people just seem to think that there's no happy medium, and that bothers me. (I'm not pointing fingers)

There is no happy medium, what there is is an Unhappy Medium that's why this thread was started.

AndroBubbles · Jan 02, 2010, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

There is no happy medium, what there is is an Unhappy Medium that's why this thread was started.

Stop going into semantics.

draxynnic · Jan 04, 2010, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

i was refering to the edenial and mindfcuk aspects of the mes. which have zero effect and play no role at all vs the AI. NOT reactive hexing damage persay. Sorry if i wasnt clear on that

Plus, a lot of stuff that traditionally goes into the basket that the Mesmer draws from - illusions, mind control, and the like - is only available in a relatively "soft" form in Guild Wars. While I'd doubt we'd ever see full-on mind control, being able to place real illusions on the game map would give Mesmers something else they can do in PvE, albeit something that may overlap with MM Necros somewhat.

The Josip · Jan 04, 2010, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Mesmer didn't get some spell because of shared PvPve skills before. I'm not sure why Mesmer didn't get more suitable spells after separation of skills.

In particular, why are there no PvE hypnotism-related hexes? You know, the classical ones such as "target foe is confused/hypnotized and for x seconds attacks the nearest creature". Such skills would serve as both damage and defense, which is what mesmer does.

Nechrond · Jan 06, 2010, 11:49 AM // 11:49

I'd just like FC to apply to aftercast as well. Apart from that, I love Mesmers the way they are.

Steps_Descending · Jan 06, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Mesmer didn't get some spell because of shared PvPve skills before. I'm not sure why Mesmer didn't get more suitable spells after separation of skills.

In particular, why are there no PvE hypnotism-related hexes? You know, the classical ones such as "target foe is confused/hypnotized and for x seconds attacks the nearest creature". Such skills would serve as both damage and defense, which is what mesmer does.

I've been wondering why we don't have Charm Monster since the first PvE skills came out. Immagine going throught UW with 3 ataxe as pet... (primary mes only 'fcourse)

Xenomortis · Jan 06, 2010, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

I've been wondering why we don't have Charm Monster since the first PvE skills came out. Immagine going throught UW with 3 ataxe as pet... (primary mes only 'fcourse)

Because then the Necromancer would have to get "Resurrect Monster".
And surely Charm would be Ranger? Maybe the Mes could get Delude.

Steps_Descending · Jan 06, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Because then the Necromancer would have to get "Resurrect Monster".
And surely Charm would be Ranger? Maybe the Mes could get Delude.

You're right, how about calling it Mind Control, give it a duration and make it work like degen-less a minion?

And I expected necro to get Resurect Monster too!

EDIT : For the record, after reviewing the thread, I counted 8 people who seem to vote for going the damage route, tought a couple of them were more "damage is the only option" than "I would hate disrupt".

And 5 people who voted for the disrupt route. 2 of which posted after the thread went off-topic, but said they want to play as disrupt instead of nukers.

Also, a good note : most people on the nuker side at least seem to agree that the damage must stay mesmery. Esurge&co

smilingscar · Jan 09, 2010, 12:18 AM // 00:18

They've already tried making mesmers into nukers. CoP was a sad crutch that was better exploited by other classes. And VoR was apparently too good for us or something

With the skill split there is no good reason why mesmers can't OP and useful in mesmery ways. They just have to get creative. Well...they might have to make interrupts more viable in HM too.

ForgottenAccount · Jan 09, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Plus, a lot of stuff that traditionally goes into the basket that the Mesmer draws from - illusions, mind control, and the like - is only available in a relatively "soft" form in Guild Wars. While I'd doubt we'd ever see full-on mind control, being able to place real illusions on the game map would give Mesmers something else they can do in PvE, albeit something that may overlap with MM Necros somewhat.

Ever since Factions I've been a bit irritated that Mesmers have not gotten any spirits. I mean, I have not expected ANet to drastically change the direction of the class that way, but the only practical difference between "Summon X Spirit" and "Conjure Phantasm/Nightmare/etc" is semantics. It just so happens that ANet decided Mesmers should only sling purple down arrows and not actually create "real" illusions, nightmares, phantoms, what have you.

To add insult to injury, spirits are effectively immune to at least half of the things Mesmers ought to be able to drop on them. About the only thing I can generally drop on a spirit is EBurn, all of our anti-attack or attack-punishing abilities are entirely negated by trash spirits. It's pretty ridiculous when killing a spirit can be more difficult than killing its owner, just because the spirit is immune to your entire bar so you have to wand it to death.

Steps_Descending · Jan 09, 2010, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForgottenAccount

Ever since Factions I've been a bit irritated that Mesmers have not gotten any spirits. I mean, I have not expected ANet to drastically change the direction of the class that way, but the only practical difference between "Summon X Spirit" and "Conjure Phantasm/Nightmare/etc" is semantics. It just so happens that ANet decided Mesmers should only sling purple down arrows and not actually create "real" illusions, nightmares, phantoms, what have you.

I'm with you on the real illusions. But the difference between "Summon X Spirit" and "Conjure Phantasm" is that a rit actually bring a spirit into the real world who will then create the emotion (or pain) and a mesmer will just directly implement the emotion inside the brain. Or that's how I think ANet tought illusion mesmer.

Quote:

To add insult to injury, spirits are effectively immune to at least half of the things Mesmers ought to be able to drop on them. About the only thing I can generally drop on a spirit is EBurn, all of our anti-attack or attack-punishing abilities are entirely negated by trash spirits. It's pretty ridiculous when killing a spirit can be more difficult than killing its owner, just because the spirit is immune to your entire bar so you have to wand it to death.

Lore-wise, if the spirit's mind is alien or non-human-like, it would be logical to be able to telepathically play with the summoner but not the undead. For every other hex, I guess a magic being requires different magic to be harmed. Tought I wonder where that decision came from balance-wise.

ForgottenAccount · Jan 12, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

I'm with you on the real illusions. But the difference between "Summon X Spirit" and "Conjure Phantasm" is that a rit actually bring a spirit into the real world who will then create the emotion (or pain) and a mesmer will just directly implement the emotion inside the brain. Or that's how I think ANet tought illusion mesmer.

Sure, that justification works, but it's a videogame and any justification that passes a basic muster works. Realistically, they just hadn't thought up the concept of using spirits offensively at the time the Mesmer was created.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Lore-wise, if the spirit's mind is alien or non-human-like, it would be logical to be able to telepathically play with the summoner but not the undead. For every other hex, I guess a magic being requires different magic to be harmed. Tought I wonder where that decision came from balance-wise.

I am not sure it was considered at all. My guess is, spirits were made immune to hexes in order to prevent Ranger spirits from being targeted by spells unnecessarily. Why would I want to blow a spell like Empathy or Backfire on a spirit that can't move, attack, or use skills that would trigger my hex?

Of course, then Factions comes out and completely changes up that aspect of the game. And instead of adjusting Mesmer skills to be more versatile instead they added a couple of patch skills (see: Spiritual Pain) and pretend like Mesmers have a 16 slot bar to put all of these situational counter skills on.

The Drunkard · Jan 12, 2010, 12:48 AM // 00:48

I personally think mesmers should have their inspiration line changed to provide energy for the rest of their team and give them the option to play more of a support role like BiP necros.

Steps_Descending · Jan 12, 2010, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I personally think mesmers should have their inspiration line changed to provide energy for the rest of their team and give them the option to play more of a support role like BiP necros.

The drunk man just threw up a pretty nice idea, skill like Energy Tap (or at least the elite version) would fit very well with that mecanism. And how about lyssa aura giving a smaller energy recharge to everyone around. I'd throw in Channelling too as it is already encouraging being surounded. If it was PvP too, would that be gamebreaking? (I know the topic is about PvE, but I just wonder if it would too good) Channelling would at least make AoE more effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForgottenAccount

I am not sure it was considered at all. My guess is, spirits were made immune to hexes in order to prevent Ranger spirits from being targeted by spells unnecessarily. Why would I want to blow a spell like Empathy or Backfire on a spirit that can't move, attack, or use skills that would trigger my hex?

Of course, then Factions comes out and completely changes up that aspect of the game. And instead of adjusting Mesmer skills to be more versatile instead they added a couple of patch skills (see: Spiritual Pain) and pretend like Mesmers have a 16 slot bar to put all of these situational counter skills on.

From a game balance point of view, you're probably right. Or maybe they wanted spirit to be kinda out-of-the-fight. Kind of half there, half not there.
Still, spirit are unnaffected by pretty much all hexes, so maybe the out-of-combat explanation has some value.

About the 16 skill slots, mesmer have alway been specialised. And since mesmer are basically pure-hex, adding skill is easier than reworking spirits as a whole or reworking mesmer hexes.

Quote:

Sure, that justification works, but it's a videogame and any justification that passes a basic muster works. Realistically, they just hadn't thought up the concept of using spirits offensively at the time the Mesmer was created.

You're very probably right, but I still think ANet's view of mesmer doesn't fit with summoning spirits. Or at least not spirits as ritualists use them. The physical-illusions could have worked as minions or spirits though. But probably closer to minions

Gargle Blaster · Jan 25, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

I think the best way to buff Mesmers is to lower the recharge on the mesmer skills. As it is setup now the long recharge times are b/c of Mantra of Recovery... So I say nerf/re-design Mantra of recovery and buff all other skills with 20+ seconds of recharge time.

maxxfury · Jan 26, 2010, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

I think the best way to buff Mesmers is to lower the recharge on the mesmer skills. As it is setup now the long recharge times are b/c of Mantra of Recovery... So I say nerf/re-design Mantra of recovery and buff all other skills with 20+ seconds of recharge time.

Oh aye!!

Mor is a bitch when it comes to balance! the same as deadly paradox, means they have to neuter skills to keep them in line when the skill is active, Also meaning they are left underpowered when the skill isnt brought.

And a buff in some way to either fc (maybe link some skills to fc as well as their own attribute, ala glowing gaze) or to the mes style Surge nukes.

happy times!

ForgottenAccount · Jan 26, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Oh aye!!

Mor is a bitch when it comes to balance! the same as deadly paradox, means they have to neuter skills to keep them in line when the skill is active, Also meaning they are left underpowered when the skill isnt brought.

I could take MoR and reduce my skill recharge times by 33%, or I can take Assassin's Promise and remove my skill recharge times (approx. 90% of the time). Assassin's Promise is also good energy management too.