Curse

Biofobico · Dec 26, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

what it doesnt mean is that its fair that a class is still a big step further down the food chain than the rest! And shouldnt be left that way.

True to that but isn't that the "beauty" of it? Be able to do everything with a "less powerful" class without any (shit)way team? Reading this thread one though comes to my mind. - Why do you play as a Mesmer?

AtomicMew · Dec 26, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biofobico

True to that but isn't that the "beauty" of it? Be able to do everything with a "less powerful" class without any (shit)way team? Reading this thread one though comes to my mind. - Why do you play as a Mesmer?

But that's the thing: they ARE further down the food chain compared to everything else. How much further down is arguable, but the fact remains, you're almost always better off taking another primary, be it a player or a hero.

Steps_Descending · Dec 26, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biofobico

True to that but isn't that the "beauty" of it? Be able to do everything with a "less powerful" class without any (shit)way team? Reading this thread one though comes to my mind. - Why do you play as a Mesmer?

I'd be tempted if the charm comes from being weaker or from having to think before you play. Even running XYZway, if you're using a mesmer build, you'll probably spend a second wondering if you couldn't switch that one skill for somethign else.
If the later is true, mesmers could be brought to competitive level, but not quite enough that mesmerway doesn't appear. Either by making them unstackable nuckers or by making them CCers.

draxynnic · Dec 27, 2009, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

You know what else can not only take the initial spike, but do so more reliably and contribute far more to the team? Smart positioning, smart protting, minions + PI, HB monk, enraging + FGJ + SY!, rit lord hero... the list of superior options goes on.

Smart positioning is hard to do with a H/H team. Even if you have excellent flagging skills, you're still going to have half your party in a clump.

Smart protting requires that either you play a monk or you have a hero monk - and even then, with just ONE monk, it's hard to get all the Prot Spirits down that you want unless you're playing something similar to tank'n'spank.

Minions + PI requires that you bring PI yourself, that the minions survive at least long enough, and that the enemy doesn't randomly decide to target the party instead of the minions anyway (it happens). And even then, there is a limit to how many targets you can PI. Maybe if you're running it with AP...

HB monk...is that Healer's Boon? Most of those are basically red-bar pushers, and I don't see that being much use when the red bar goes from full to empty in about a second.

SY!, when H/Hing, means you have to bring it yourself, and even then your party may still be vulnerable in those first few moments - the imbagon still needs two throws to charge (even if supported by an orders derv or necro) while a Warrior needs to get into contact before the Enraging and FGJ does its thing.

The ritlord hero... well, Shelter is only going to last through ten damage preventions or so - that could be just one nuke, and then it's twenty five seconds or so before the Shelter goes back up again. Cry of Frustration can stop an entire mob's worth of nukes, causing damage in the process, and then Tease can repeat it and refill the Mesmer's bar - and both have a shorter recharge than Shelter, as well as leaving six slots in the Mesmer's bar for other stuff.

Is the area-interrupt Mesmer perfect? Of course it isn't, but you're kidding yourself if you think the others don't have their downsides when H/Hing (and, in some cases, even with a full human group). I never claimed it was, however - just that it can be useful, and if buffed sufficiently it may well prove to be worthy competition to SY!-spamming.

Quote:

Sorry, but clumsiness and WE are both terrible, extremely bad skills. Compare to splinter weapon, for AoE damage, it gets beats out completely, no contest. Compare to reckless haste: WE stops just one attack whereas RH can stop dozens of attacks. While I can't think of any other skill that boths shutdowns and punishes melee the same way, I think it is more than plain to see that since each individual effect, compared to other skills that have similar effects, is extremely marginal, the combined effect is also marginal.

Yes, Splinter Weapon is a powerful skill, but there's nothing saying you can't have both.

As for the rest: Sure, RH is likely to stop more attacks, but as you say, it doesn't cause damage in the process. In some ways, it's also less reliable - a well-timed Clumsiness (let's be honest here:If you're comparing shutdown, compare to Clumsiness, not to WI. WI is basically just a nuke that follows a similar mechanic) guarantees that the enemy physicals aren't going to be doing any damage over the next few seconds, while RH just cuts it by 50% (assuming Hard Mode) over the life of the mob. If the mob only lasts for a few seconds, or if one of your party members only needed one more hit to die, which is more valuable?

We're also looking at the skills in isolation. Reasonable enough for the situation now, since there's only two of them and they can each only be deployed once every ten seconds. Now consider if that tactic was expanded on. If, hypothetically, it was possible for a Mesmer to keep casting Clumsiness over and over with no recharge, you're looking at an armour-ignoring DPS somewhere around 50 while quite effectively shutting down a physical mob. Now, I don't think we'd actually get quite that far, but that's the direction in question.

And now, to throw down a gauntlet: trcvrs, you keep going on about how Mesmers suck, and you're trying to shoot down my suggestions as to which direction to go to improve them by saying the areas in question aren't competitive now. Well, that's obvious enough, since if they WERE we wouldn't be having this discussion...but since we ARE having this discussion, how would YOU go about improving the PvE Mesmer?

Axel Zinfandel · Dec 27, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Mesmers are fine. The only thing I can see that needs changing it

1) function of a lot of skills for PvE (E-denial, ect)

2) Fast Casting (either buff, or nerf MindBender)

3) Recharge (lower a lot of them to friendlier terms for PvE. Especially elites.

Xenomortis · Dec 27, 2009, 12:00 PM // 12:00

What a Mesmer is good for is something that is not valuable in PvE. The problem is simple.
The one build in my view that makes exception to this is a build that is also better run on a Necromancer. I note that Fevered Dreams has come up already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Mes vs Necro for Fd is a call of blind vs Weakness more than the energy issue. The durations of the Conditions should mean you dont need to reapply on the mob, meaning the extra energy isnt needed if you play it properly. IF you mess up bad then your Blue bar may be taxed heavier on mes than necro. obviously :P

Blind is a better shutdown than weakness for physicals, period....(but then you get to weather you ACTUALLY NEED the extra power of blind over weakness, considering you get stuff like reckless, aegis, guardian, blah blah to neuter the physicals)

Mes vs Necro is a choice between Blind + Possible weakness vs Weakness + Better energy management + a spare skill slot or two.
A mesmer has to have at least 2 slots dedicated to energy management while the Necromancer doesn't need any (but they'll want SoLS if they want to keep on unloading).
If my Mesmer was to load up my Necromancer's bar, she'd have to lose a condition, damage or two conditions. After that she'd be pretty much free to go Me/E over Me/N, the difference would be that one skill that would be replaced with Ash Blast.

Note that the two decent blind inflicting skills (Steam and Ash Blast) require another skill or condition to get its effect.

Because Blind is such an irritating condition to inflict and seldom lasts long, it's really not worth the effort. Weakness tends to remove any threat from scary physicals and that leaves ranger interrupts maybe assassins. Saying Blind is better than Weakness isn't helpful, it's for that reason that Blind is much less efficient to inflict.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mesmer. Used both.

Well that's a useless statement. I've used both and have arrived at a very different conclusion. But I try to backup my statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Mesmers don't really need a new direction, they just need to be buffed, big time. I think the biggest downfall of mesmers is that fast casting sucks. In PvE, it doesn't really matter how long it takes to cast something, as long as it casts. So even if mesmer skills were good, (which they're not), N/Me, with infinite energy, would be a better mesmer than a mesmer primary.

The innate ability being near useless doesn't on its own, imply that the class will be useless. Warriors get by with Strength because of the large number of skills that are actually useful in that line.
If Fast Casting had useful skills, only a Mesmer could run them.
Unfortunatly for the mesmer, pretty much all of its energy management is in Inspiritation. A 3-way attribute split from the start does not help either.

I also find it somewhat amusing that Mindbender pretty much emulates Fast Casting.

Smarty · Dec 27, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

I'm sticking with ideas to improve the damage a mesmer can do in PvE, as I still think that's the only viable way to put them on a par with other caster professions.

Something I thought of to make mesmers really useful for PvE nuking - if eburn/surge were changed so that they did damage based on how much energy was taken away, and then some additional damage based on how much energy was remaining, the monsters' neverending energy reserves would actually work in a mesmer's favour rather than against it. Combine it with Aneurysm first for added pain.

eg a 10-energy burn (@ 14/15 dom) would normally do 90 points of damage. 1 additional damage for every remaining point of energy would approximately double the damage done to an average human ele, or add another 30 to the damage done to an average human non-ele caster, if they were on full energy when the burn hit. The numbers would be bigger against monsters because of their larger energy pool. There would need to be a maximum to the amount of damage that could be done per skill, otherwise a HM lvl 30 mesmer monster would be able to one-shot an ele player, eg: 1 damage per remaining energy, up to a maximum of 200 additional damage. (Make it 1 damage per 2 energy remaining, or a maximum of 100 additional damage, or whatever numbers are required to balance it. I'm more bothered about the principle than the numbers at this point.)

Alternatively, or additionally, how about instead of FC giving X energy back per interrupt per att point invested as is usually suggested for improving FC, how about it doing X extra damage per point of chaos damage dealt per att point invested? It would make running dom and illusion chaos damage-based builds on a mesmer primary much better than running them on other classes.

maxxfury · Dec 27, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Mes vs Necro is a choice between Blind + Possible weakness vs Weakness + Better energy management + a spare skill slot or two.
A mesmer has to have at least 2 slots dedicated to energy management while the Necromancer doesn't need any (but they'll want SoLS if they want to keep on unloading).
If my Mesmer was to load up my Necromancer's bar, she'd have to lose a condition, damage or two conditions. After that she'd be pretty much free to go Me/E over Me/N, the difference would be that one skill that would be replaced with Ash Blast.

Note that the two decent blind inflicting skills (Steam and Ash Blast) require another skill or condition to get its effect.

Because Blind is such an irritating condition to inflict and seldom lasts long, it's really not worth the effort. Weakness tends to remove any threat from scary physicals and that leaves ranger interrupts maybe assassins. Saying Blind is better than Weakness isn't helpful, it's for that reason that Blind is much less efficient to inflict.

Unfortunatly for the mesmer, pretty much all of its energy management is in Inspiritation. A 3-way attribute split from the start does not help either.

Id usually bring this bar
OQZTA0AnQ6GYCwmsHyGMmEZAAA

In that you get Blind, daze, cripple, cracked armour, deep would. And if the durations of blind, cripple, and deep would expire before the mob is dead then the team is doing it wrong.

Ymlad powers ashblast so thats not just a null skill to initiate it, as its a kd, cripple and damage. Not difficult to apply blind at all. And the cripple is usefull to to keep mobs from running too far too fast. the blindis on a 10 second recharge with the same duration/longer duration, along with ymlad. perfect fit. The blind replaces the weakness also, as its pretty much a waste of time to take them both.

Not arguing that the necro is inferior, due to soul reaping as usual it is less fragile with cheesy free energy. We all know the nec>mes in pve as is the point of this thread, and the nec wins out on any similar bar due to this, even if the bar cant take the same skills. Hence why the mes needs a buff

to be able to compete on a level playing field.

But blind is easy to apply and is better shut down than weakness.

90% miss vs 66% less base damage(not +damage) makes its own point, although NOT counting if you actually need it with aegis/reckless ect in the party.

The attribute split is fine due to illusion not needed a large investment, fc never needing a lot either lol, earth only needing a modest investment and inspiration take the left overs.

Im guessing the necro version is something like
OAVTEYjeU6GYCwm0OwGMmsqSoB

And when comparing they are pretty close effect wise, the damage reduction % +miss % of the necro vs the 90% miss from Mes is effectivley pretty similar in outcome. So i admit the only real effective difference is back to the energy issues. But then meh, necro is a blue bar RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO :P as well all know.

**back on topic, im still liking the blue bar effecting the red bar for nuking idea! Esurge style enhanced! xD

Steps_Descending · Dec 27, 2009, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Can I remind everyone that the piont of this thread is not to see wether Mes need a buff or not? Nor what exactly that buff might be.

The point is to see in what direction they could be buffed assuming we buff them.

maxxfury · Dec 27, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Can I remind everyone that the piont of this thread is not to see wether Mes need a buff or not? Nor what exactly that buff might be.

The point is to see in what direction they could be buffed assuming we buff them.

It would be very shortsighted if we didnt discuss it all tbh. but:

Damage, that cant be stacked hard like cop.
surge/burn style damage buffs/reworks! Keeps it "mesmery" seemples!

Pve = emptying their redbars while keeping yours from been empty.

Mes can already very aptly condition overload and spam pvs skills.
more options for blowing shit up pls! /misses Spiritual pain xD

asb · Dec 28, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Can I remind everyone that the point of this thread is not to see wether Mes need a buff or not? Nor what exactly that buff might be.

The point is to see in what direction they could be buffed assuming we buff them.

I initially started playing Mesmer(PvE) thinking I could have a similar influence on battles as PvP Mesmer do. This, I had to learn, is almost totally impossible, as the enemy only has one tactic: Charge, prioritize lower armor/level, prioritize healers. No enemy mob really retreats, repositions themselves, seeks environmental advantages, lures(pulls), you get what I mean.
I still want to exert control on the enemy, lure them into a (hex)trap, take out specific members of the enemy team and turn their powers against them. I don't want to primarily deal damage as a Mesmer, I want to hinder the enemy team dealing it or take their away their ability to migrate/regenerate damage(healer/protector). A lot of Mesmer skills are focused on punishing the enemy for executing a specific task. Empathy, VoR, Backfire. With an intelligent enemy, these skills would be extremely powerful, as it would hesitate to execute their tasks in fear of being punished(or at least waste time thinking about it), but since AI mobs don't have these kinds of routines built into their programming, punishing skills have only one real function, to deal damage. Of course, that's not what these skills were initially designed for, and most probably were changed/buffed to make them more useful in PvE. In the early stages of each campaign, interrupts and punishing skills have a far greater effect, and due to smaller mob numbers and skill sets your chance of disrupting the enemy team pretty good. Unfortunately, an interrupt stays an interrupt, and one disabled skill is only that. Almost no Mesmer skill effects scale effectively in order to handle bigger mobs or exert more pressure on one enemy with a bigger larger set and greater energy pool.

I would want a lot of skills reworked, even the ones that currently work well in PvE, to support playing a class like it was originally intended, and not force it into a play style most other classes excel anyway.

Let me take Diversion as example. It's a good skill, somewhat effective in PvE, but an absolute destroyer in PvP. It has the power to cripple a players build for a minute, or shut him down for up to 6 seconds. Six seconds into a PvE battle, the only thing happening is monks cleaning the party of remaining conditions/hexes and the rest killing of the last surviving minion/foe. In HM, it takes up to three times as long, depending on the mob, but that's nothing compared to PvP battles. It is still effective against single targets and bosses, but otherwise nowhere near as disruptive as in PvP.

To make this skill more fitting for general PvE encounters, I'd change it to this:
Diversion

* 10 Energy
* 3 Activation
* 10 Recharge

Hex Spell. For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, that skill and 1...2...2 random skills take an additional 1...3...5 seconds to recharge.

The numbers certainly need tweaking, but I just wanted to get a point across. Battles don't last long in PvE, but you can change skills to have a broader impact on the outcome, you don't need to buff them damage wise.
Another example: Empathy. It's a punishing skill in PvP, in PvE it can be only used deal damage, because the enemy can't comprehend the impact it will have on him. So if you can't shut down the enemy by letting him evaluate the consequences, force him.

Empathy

* 5 Energy
* 2 Activation
* 12 Recharge

Hex Spell. For 5...13...15 seconds, whenever target foe attacks, that foe takes the same amount of damage dealt and cannot attack for 3 seconds.

Something else: Interrupts

We all know they are aren't nearly as disruptive in PvE as they are in PvP, mainly because they show their real power as the battle duration increases. Interrupts ultimately increase the enemy needs to complete his task, in the best case preventing the him from completing an important part of a larger attack chain. The effectiveness of interrupts also varies with the skills you're able to interrupt.

Again, battles in PvE are short and numerous, in general the enemy team is being spiked to death, they don't pre prot, so they can be surprised... always. What vital part can interrupts play in these situation? There are multiple possible solutions I can think of:

1. Give Fastcasting an additional property that decreases the casting time of spells and chants of the enemy you are targeting while in aggro range.

2. Change most of the interrupts(not all of them) to "mistrust"-like functionality, so interrupting, especially in Hard Mode, will not a thing only Hero's are able to do.

3. Change functionality of skills that are completely outshined by other skills.
A lot of Mesmer skills have a recharge times that are simply too high compared to the effect they have in PvE. Example: Mirror of Disenchantment
As mobs are not spread out far from each other in PvE anyway, Chilblains is generally the superior choice.

Current: Spell. Remove one enchantment from target foe. All of that foe's party members also lose that same enchantment.
Proposal: Spell. Transfer one enchantment and it's remaining duration from target foe to yourself and all adjacent allies.

The Mesmer was the first class I ever played, but as I got more experienced and progressed in the game I had to realize that I wasn't contributing to the party's success as much as I had hoped. I feel it every time I play Mesmer. I don't want to deal damage, I want to mess with the enemy's abilities, corrupt them, make them do things they don't want to do, make them not do things they want to do. Dealing damage is not unimportant, but with a Mesmer, you should have options that are superior to that. I wouldn't mind the Mesmer becoming a little to spellcasters what the Paragon is to Melees, too. There could be some pretty cool ways to buff spellcasters, apart from PvE- only wards and skills.

draxynnic · Dec 28, 2009, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Note that the two decent blind inflicting skills (Steam and Ash Blast) require another skill or condition to get its effect.

On the other hand, they are both fairly simple to achieve. Ash Blast, as has already been pointed out, just requires YMLaD, which is almost a given on any mesmer bar in general these days, let along mandragor builds specifically. My general tactic is to use YMLaD during the casting of Ash Blast.

Steam isn't quite so good, but can be combined with Glyph of Immolation, or depending on team build you could have an ally distributing Burning for you.

AndroBubbles · Dec 30, 2009, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

reactive hexing = bad

What's with this fad of dissing reactive hexing? Have you been reading the necro forum too much?

maxxfury · Dec 30, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

What's with this fad of dissing reactive hexing? Have you been reading the necro forum too much?

Its the fact that if you compare the outputs of the two, one comes out SEVERELY lacking in semi-competent play in comparison.

Reactive hex's have a very low ceiling compared to Proactive (aka Mop ect)
Due to the fact you/your team control the output level of damage YOURSELF.

NOT letting the mobs, with their limited attack speeds and cast speeds do this for you.

ex, a mob attacking every 1.33 seconds or your team attacking 8 times a second...before you count the physical buffs you can stack vs the nothing you can stack on the mobs to make the proc the hex any faster.

Reactive hex's synergise with basically nothing but stuff that increases mobs attack / casting speeds, and they have a hard cap. Pro active hex's only cap is as many procs as you are willing to throw at it.

Vor/emp/backfire/SS/insidious/ect all fade into the background when compared to pro active, that its not even funny.

Back in Proph only days SS WAS a formidable skills, but thanks to the power creep its been left behind.

Nothing blows shit up faster now than a mop fueled physical assault.

Its not a fad it people understanding about mechanics.

The Riven · Dec 30, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Its the fact that if you compare the outputs of the two, one comes out SEVERELY lacking in semi-competent play in comparison.

Reactive hex's have a very low ceiling compared to Proactive (aka Mop ect)
Due to the fact you/your team control the output level of damage YOURSELF.

NOT letting the mobs, with their limited attack speeds and cast speeds do this for you.

ex, a mob attacking every 1.33 seconds or your team attacking 8 times a second...before you count the physical buffs you can stack vs the nothing you can stack on the mobs to make the proc the hex any faster.

Reactive hex's synergise with basically nothing but stuff that increases mobs attack / casting speeds, and they have a hard cap. Pro active hex's only cap is as many procs as you are willing to throw at it.

Vor/emp/backfire/SS/insidious/ect all fade into the background when compared to pro active, that its not even funny.

Back in Proph only days SS WAS a formidable skills, but thanks to the power creep its been left behind.

Nothing blows shit up faster now than a mop fueled physical assault.

Its not a fad it people understanding about mechanics.

While i agree 100% with everything you have posted, for a Mesmer to take advantage of this would require NOT just a buff in a few areas but a total reworking of the mesmer class.

For general PvE the strongest build i can think of is Me/A and severe abuse of PvE (EoTN) skills, that's gotta be changed.

maxxfury · Dec 30, 2009, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

While i agree 100% with everything you have posted, for a Mesmer to take advantage of this would require NOT just a buff in a few areas but a total reworking of the mesmer class.

For general PvE the strongest build i can think of is Me/A and severe abuse of PvE (EoTN) skills, that's gotta be changed.

Aint that just the sad truth of the pve mes!!

i'll steal a phrase the "original sin" of the Mes is that its fundimental "cool" stuff just 'isnt pve' in nature

or more to the point the "original sin" of pve is that it doesnt take well to the mes good attributes

Perfected Shadow · Dec 30, 2009, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Make Power Return aoe, so I can stick it on a necro hero and smile.

Xenomortis · Dec 30, 2009, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

What's with this fad of dissing reactive hexing? Have you been reading the necro forum too much?

I love the fact that Mesmers have more reactive shit than Necs, but it's in the necro forum where it's lambasted.

People seem to praise it here. They need to be shown otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

For general PvE the strongest build i can think of is Me/A and severe abuse of PvE (EoTN) skills, that's gotta be changed.

This I am in agreement with. Mesmers are the lucky ones that get to spam the most assassins.

Cuilan · Dec 30, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Nothing blows shit up faster now than a mop fueled physical assault.

Then by your standards, MoP should be nerfed.

Sooo amusing how everyone talks about how more powerful necromancers are compared to mesmers, but then they get all scared and defensive when you mention the nerf bat. Hypocritical if you support game balance.

maxxfury · Dec 30, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Then by your standards, MoP should be nerfed.

Sooo amusing how everyone talks about how more powerful necromancers are compared to mesmers, but then they get all scared and defensive when you mention the nerf bat. Hypocritical if you support game balance.

Well its actually AP that causes the problem, NOT Mop.

A solid phys team has always been better out damage output, thats how the game has always been balanced, and was designed.

Mop IS well balanced by its self with the recharge and the fact you NEED your team to follow calls, to "leverage" the damage.

Sf, Er, Sy and AP to a lesser degree are all prime candidates for breaking pve. Not the skills that they abuse in the bars in general.

The mop nuker is a heavily synergised bar, without the leverage of a team to support you you WAY less effective. But even when it IS super effective its a team effort not a solo one. GO GO TEAM WORK BABY YEAH! the original principles of gw

Tho personally i rate the Me/A sin spammer VERY close to the mop nuker in all but manlyway sc's! Tho no longer equal since the cop nerf!

I feel the mes its self would suffer way more than the nec with an AP nerf, and that would be even more sad

Tho i dont see a big nerf for it anytime soon due to how fragile it can be in some areas and how easy it is to mess up!

TLDR: mop is fine its ap and call following that makes the mopper great.
Mark of pain is fine as it is. A nerf to it would be the usual work around an issue rather than fix the issue.

*sidenote: i dont see Nec's getting defensive over nerf talk! other than some who dont know enough to know why the SR nerf was needed.