Curse

AtomicMew · Dec 24, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Mesmers don't really need a new direction, they just need to be buffed, big time. I think the biggest downfall of mesmers is that fast casting sucks. In PvE, it doesn't really matter how long it takes to cast something, as long as it casts. So even if mesmer skills were good, (which they're not), N/Me, with infinite energy, would be a better mesmer than a mesmer primary.

The second biggest downfall is that precision shutdown is just not worth the effort investment (and even if it were, most people probably aren't good enough to do it, anyway). Sure, you could theoretically shutdown the ele boss with things like diversion and pblock, but why do that when you could throw PI on it and kill it instantly, or roll a sin and 12343483434384 etc.

The Josip · Dec 25, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Ideally - direction should be insane buff to Mesmer-unique skills. Like others got.

Monsters in PvE have larger energy pool and +1 regen? No problem! Make Energy Burn burn 80 energy! Monsters in HM have super-cast times? No problem - make Migraine AoE and increases casting time by 500%! Monsters move super-fast in HM, thus making useless mesmer slow hexes? No problem, make Shader Burden decrease moving speed by 90%. Blackout - affects everyone in earshot range.

Sounds silly? Maybe, but that's what other classes have. This is on the same level with other classes, it's just different form.

---

I think mesmers are forsaken class, and these things won't happen. So direction my mesmer took is simple:

SPIRIT SPAM!

Mesmer can do it just as good as Rt because you don't need any Spawning.

draxynnic · Dec 25, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

IN OTHER WORDS a mesmery mesmer isn't great in PvE but it's still great in PvP so I don't want the mesmer class as a whole rewriting just for the sake of PvE. Change a few skills to make them more viable in PvE, sure, but leave it at that.

That's pretty much what I'd expect, really - a bit of tweaking rather than rebuilding. I expect a rebuild along the lines that I might otherwise suggest would realistically require new skills (at least new skill names) to work.

It'd be interesting to see what list of skills are considered naff in all formats, since these would be the candidates for complete reworking. Chaos Storm, for instance, is a skill that I think could have two ways to rework - one by applying an "energy burn" like effect when it drains Energy (three points, say, would make it quite powerful if the enemy insists on casting through it), and one because it seems a candidate to be the spell that is to Mistrust as Clumsiness is to Wandering Eye.

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Giving mesmers a solid chaos nuker bar would be the best way of doing so, as it's a simple watch-the-yellow-numbers-fly bar that anyone can run and understand the usefulness of. Improving skills to give mesmers a shutdown bar that is actually useful in PvE won't be one that's understood by everyone and so mesmers will still suffer from being seen as less useful than other caster classes.

Well, this is part of why I'm suggesting improving their nuking and their shutdown.

To my eye, the main competition for shutdown in Guild Wars are twofold. First, there is tanking mechanics - no point to shutting down a target that is futilely trying to attack the SF sin. Since SF is set to be hit, though, that's probably not a serious concern in the future. The second is "Save Yourselves!" - in high-end PvE the greatest threats to a party are usually armour-respecting, and SY! cuts that down much more effectively than any shutdown currently available to players will achieve.

At this point, though, I'll note that I do like running Mesmer heroes since the likes of Tease and Cry of Frustration can serve to shut down an entire group (for a couple of seconds, anyway). The problem is, this isn't really available to players in HM for reasons that have already been discussed - however, one or more area of effect "pre-emptive interrupt hexes" could probably be quite effective at both dealing damage and reducing the damage coming back. This could even prove to have a synergistic behaviour with SY!, as if there are any periods where SY! is down, the Mesmer can time their best shutdowns to take effect while SY! isn't up.

AtomicMew · Dec 25, 2009, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

At this point, though, I'll note that I do like running Mesmer heroes since the likes of Tease and Cry of Frustration can serve to shut down an entire group (for a couple of seconds, anyway).

You know what else shuts down an entire group? Killing the SHIT out of it. mesmer heroes are not good for the EXACT same reason player mesmers aren't. Tease and CoF are barely "decent". The effects are just so marginal compared to other builds, and just forget about reliability. Precision interrupts are just not any good, because blanket shutdown is about 100x better. The only mesmer elite I consider any good is fevered dreams. And guess which class runs it better, necro or mes? Oops.

Quote:

could probably be quite effective at both dealing damage and reducing the damage coming back. This could even prove to have a synergistic behaviour with SY!, as if there are any periods where SY! is down, the Mesmer can time their best shutdowns to take effect while SY! isn't up.

Yeah... heroes aren't smart enough to do this. They won't wait for SY downtime, they'll just use it whenever. If you're talking about players, there's really no point. Just take another war or sin and don't worry about SY downtime at all.

Cuilan · Dec 25, 2009, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

The only mesmer elite I consider any good is fevered dreams. And guess which class runs it better, necro or mes? Oops.

Mesmer. Used both.

One interesting thing about mesmer is they don't have people calling other people out for being a new or lesser player. Lots of the recent mesmer threads leads me to believe there are quite a few inexperience players who want a button mashing profession.

AtomicMew · Dec 25, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mesmer. Used both.

I have no idea how you get the idea how you get the idea that infinite energy is not as good as casting things slightly faster and poor attribute splits because you need to invest in inspiration to manage your energy.

If you think mesmer is better, you're probably not playing it properly. For an optimal build, the only things in illu you should be taking are FD and fragility. Any other illu spell is very, very bad. The rest is either PvE skills or curses. A necro can run 12 illu, 10+1+1 curses and take strong curse hexes in the 2 optional slots. A mesmer can't do that, since they need those slots for e-management.

Quote:

One interesting thing about mesmer is they don't have people calling other people out for being a new or lesser player. Lots of the recent mesmer threads leads me to believe there are quite a few inexperience players who want a button mashing profession.

It doesn't change the fact that mesmers are just not good or even rewarding of good play (FD is button mashing, fyi).

PS: Merry xmas

Cuilan · Dec 25, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

I have no idea how you get the idea how you get the idea that infinite energy is not as good as casting things slightly faster and poor attribute splits because you need to invest in inspiration to manage your energy.

If you think mesmer is better, you're probably not playing it properly. For an optimal build, the only things in illu you should be taking are FD and fragility. Any other illu spell is very, very bad. The rest is either PvE skills or curses. A necro can run 12 illu, 10+1+1 curses and take strong curse hexes in the 2 optional slots. A mesmer can't do that, since they need those slots for e-management.

A mesmer can go Mes/Ele and you don't need infinite energy to run the build. Just because a build has a skill or so for energy, it doesn't make it lesser. Go tell that to an Ether Renewal elementalist. Their energy skill is an elite, so clearly that's worse!

The attribute points for an FD mesmer are just fine.

You're probably not playing it properly.

maxxfury · Dec 25, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

If you think mesmer is better, you're probably not playing it properly. For an optimal build, the only things in illu you should be taking are FD and fragility. Any other illu spell is very, very bad. The rest is either PvE skills or curses. A necro can run 12 illu, 10+1+1 curses and take strong curse hexes in the 2 optional slots. A mesmer can't do that, since they need those slots for e-management.

PS: Merry xmas

Mes vs Necro for Fd is a call of blind vs Weakness more than the energy issue. The durations of the Conditions should mean you dont need to reapply on the mob, meaning the extra energy isnt needed if you play it properly. IF you mess up bad then your Blue bar may be taxed heavier on mes than necro. obviously :P

Blind is a better shutdown than weakness for physicals, period....(but then you get to weather you ACTUALLY NEED the extra power of blind over weakness, considering you get stuff like reckless, aegis, guardian, blah blah to neuter the physicals)

Which runs it better? Well the mes bar with blind IS more powerful condition abuse wise due to blind but is also less reliable if you mess up than the necro due to the blue bar issues the mes faces over the necro.

The inherent abilities of the necro+reaping make the necro, as usual a better platform to run a comparable bar. Reaping IS that much better than Fc it makes a lot of the arguments between the 2 classes on similar bars pretty much a no contest most of the time..sadly

Personally i prefer to run the Mes version my self

it feels better with blind than with weakness, THAT part is my personal opinion. Even if i need to dedicate a slot to Eman that the necro can use for mop or shadow of fear or reckless ect.

'tiss for me more fun! And i find blind to be harder shutdown than weakness.. well not as hard as ghosting them but still

And merry christmas back at ya xD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Go tell that to an Ether Renewal elementalist. Their energy skill is an elite, so clearly that's worse!

Er is more broken that SR..And elite, so cant be used in an argument for a FD bar. Tho it is very broken with the right none elite skills to abuse

**just realised how off topic this has gone...oh well!

Cuilan · Dec 25, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35

You Are All Weaklings is a PvE skill if you really really wanted to have weakness on your bar.

maxxfury · Dec 25, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

You Are All Weaklings is a PvE skill if you really really wanted to have weakness on your bar.

Blind And Weakness is a waste on the same bar tbh. And if you wanted Weakness instead of Blind, then Necro takes it hands down!

Blind is THE reason to run as a mes/e over nec/me. If you dont take that then there are no reasons to take mes over nec.

Cuilan · Dec 25, 2009, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Generally people discuss a builds with the mindset that the player knows how to play.

maxxfury · Dec 25, 2009, 11:52 PM // 23:52

I dont assume anything about a players skill, especially on here.
Just state things as they are, and in context.

Its the only fair way to play on guru

You could be a 2 week newbie with no clue on why skills dont synergise together or why some are made redundant on a bar by others, or if your a 4+ year veteran with a deep understanding of mechanics and bar crafting.

Either way my reply was valid and in context, appropriate for you and/or anyone reading the thread. Regardless of skill levels or understandings.

Not in any way regarded as a dig at your understanding.

draxynnic · Dec 26, 2009, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

You know what else shuts down an entire group? Killing the SHIT out of it. mesmer heroes are not good for the EXACT same reason player mesmers aren't. Tease and CoF are barely "decent". The effects are just so marginal compared to other builds, and just forget about reliability. Precision interrupts are just not any good, because blanket shutdown is about 100x better. The only mesmer elite I consider any good is fevered dreams. And guess which class runs it better, necro or mes? Oops.

Generally, even when you're killing the shit out of a mob, it still has a few seconds to try to kill the shit out of you back - and if they're hard mode elementalists and you haven't PSed the entire party (hard to do when hero-henching...), there's a good chance they will inflict casualties in that initial alphaspike. Tease and CoF on AI reflexes are quite effective at shutting a mob down for a couple of seconds, thank you very much.

And if you'd read between the lines, you'd probably have realised that having a Mesmer hero along at all mostly likely means a H/H or a 2P6H group anyway, and thus not as optimised as a full human group.

Still, even then, we're not talking about whether Mesmers are up to the same level as everyone else, but how to get them there. Consider a well-timed Clumsiness against a tightly-packed all-physical group - that's close to a hundred points of armour-ignoring damage as well as spoiling their attacks. Wandering Eye won't spoil as many attacks, but will do about as much damage. Now, the current mesmer has to stop there, but imagine if they didn't? Furthermore, imagine if they could give the same treatment to spellcasting mobs?

End result, I think, is that they'd be able to contribute quite effectively in both the roles of killing the shit out of the enemy and preventing them from killing the shit out of you first. I'd say that would be worth a slot in anything but a specialised physical group.

AtomicMew · Dec 26, 2009, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Generally, even when you're killing the shit out of a mob, it still has a few seconds to try to kill the shit out of you back - and if they're hard mode elementalists and you haven't PSed the entire party (hard to do when hero-henching...), there's a good chance they will inflict casualties in that initial alphaspike. Tease and CoF on AI reflexes are quite effective at shutting a mob down for a couple of seconds, thank you very much.

You know what else can not only take the initial spike, but do so more reliably and contribute far more to the team? Smart positioning, smart protting, minions + PI, HB monk, enraging + FGJ + SY!, rit lord hero... the list of superior options goes on.

Quote:

And if you'd read between the lines, you'd probably have realised that having a Mesmer hero along at all mostly likely means a H/H or a 2P6H group anyway, and thus not as optimised as a full human group.

That statement has no relevance to the discussion. I pretty much play H/H or 2-man pretty exclusively nowadays, anyway.

Quote:

Still, even then, we're not talking about whether Mesmers are up to the same level as everyone else, but how to get them there. Consider a well-timed Clumsiness against a tightly-packed all-physical group - that's close to a hundred points of armour-ignoring damage as well as spoiling their attacks. Wandering Eye won't spoil as many attacks, but will do about as much damage.

Sorry, but clumsiness and WE are both terrible, extremely bad skills. Compare to splinter weapon, for AoE damage, it gets beats out completely, no contest. Compare to reckless haste: WE stops just one attack whereas RH can stop dozens of attacks. While I can't think of any other skill that boths shutdowns and punishes melee the same way, I think it is more than plain to see that since each individual effect, compared to other skills that have similar effects, is extremely marginal, the combined effect is also marginal.

Quote:

End result, I think, is that they'd be able to contribute quite effectively in both the roles of killing the shit out of the enemy and preventing them from killing the shit out of you first. I'd say that would be worth a slot in anything but a specialised physical group.

Unfortunately, that is not true. The only decent mez elite atm is fevered dreams. Even if I wanted to take FD, I'd just take a necro hero, who, unlike a mesmer, could also spam decent curse spells.

Steps_Descending · Dec 26, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

You know what else can not only take the initial spike, but do so more reliably and contribute far more to the team? Smart positioning, smart protting, minions + PI, HB monk, enraging + FGJ + SY!, rit lord hero... the list of superior options goes on.

By the way, all those options, other than positionning, minimize damage. While a full shutdown could reduce the damage to 0. Also, I heard a kill took 3-4 sec to land. The fight chould be somthing like 10 sec (2-3 kill streaks), not all of those will last more than a few sec : HB monks will have to re-heal after 3 sec, SY won't stop those 3 mesmer from using AoE E-surge (minor I'll admit), the rit hero has a 25 sec cooldown and I doubt the spirit will last that long.

By the way, you know you are comparing the killing power of a class which is not supposed to kill.

One last thing, we are not discussing how different mesmers are. The topic is how we want mesmer to evolve and BE COMPETITIVE.

On-topic : I think mesmer should stay unique. We already have 9 other classes doing the same things. Being able to completely shut down 1 mob with 1 spell (that means 3-4 mob per fight) for 10-15 second would help for "small/medium fights". (read : not 8v16 fights)

Biofobico · Dec 26, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Don't see any purpose on this thread ( like 70% of the forum ) since you can do anything with (someshit)way team being sab, discord, whatever....
The only progress to the game, will be some serious rethinking by his developers because in my opinion GW is almost dead.

my to cents

maxxfury · Dec 26, 2009, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

By the way, you know you are comparing the killing power of a class which is not supposed to kill.

One last thing, we are not discussing how different mesmers are. The topic is how we want mesmer to evolve and BE COMPETITIVE.

Firstly, the classes sadly dont bare a whole lot of resembelence to the "original" direction for them that anet had in mind

so you cant really, call them out as not been meant to kill. Note the Er infoozer or even laugh at the hamstormer on the other end of the spectrum

The original concepts have ALL evolved from what they were to some degree.

Secondly could be fun to have them to buff Edenial, and "fix" mobs blue bars and regen, and make it effective to do so! Messing with blue bars to empty red bars could be mucho fun! Burns, surges, anneurysms blah blah buffs and reworks!

Chaos nuking thats tears down their red bar by messin with their blue bars
would still be unique to mes and could be a good solid way of blowing shit up...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biofobico

Don't see any purpose on this thread ( like 70% of the forum ) since you can do anything with (someshit)way team being sab, discord, whatever....
The only progress to the game, will be some serious rethinking by his developers because in my opinion GW is almost dead.

Any cabbge with any bar can run shitter way, the same as one with half a brain and an OP'd bar can. Means nothing When an empty bar does can do it too!(just show that the game is too easy if you can sub it with 7 or less doing the work in a party with the player effectivly AFK)..

what it doesnt mean is that its fair that a class is still a big step further down the food chain than the rest! And shouldnt be left that way.

Its only as dead as you see it! new players and people who havent been there and done it all dont see it as dead! or even faultering! Maybe past its prime imo but still solid

And the purpose is that maybe, just maybe the TK might see something that shines.....and gets something pushed thru and done xD

upier · Dec 26, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biofobico

Don't see any purpose on this thread ( like 70% of the forum ) since you can do anything with (someshit)way team being sab, discord, whatever....
The only progress to the game, will be some serious rethinking by his developers because in my opinion GW is almost dead.

my to cents

Since people are asking A.Net for a change to the mesmer I figured we should define what that change should be like, because when it comes to this game the changes pretty much always seem to revolve around hitting faster and stronger and that never was the reason why I play a mesmer, so going down the chaos nuker road would only create results that I simply do not care for, thus not really presenting a fix to the class.

Steps_Descending · Dec 26, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Firstly, the classes sadly dont bare a whole lot of resembelence to the "original" direction for them that anet had in mind

so you cant really, call them out as not been meant to kill. Note the Er infoozer or even laugh at the hamstormer on the other end of the spectrum

The original concepts have ALL evolved from what they were to some degree.

Secondly could be fun to have them to buff Edenial, and "fix" mobs blue bars and regen, and make it effective to do so! Messing with blue bars to empty red bars could be mucho fun! Burns, surges, anneurysms blah blah buffs and reworks!

Chaos nuking thats tears down their red bar by messin with their blue bars
would still be unique to mes and could be a good solid way of blowing shit up...

Classes have changed but they aren't completely homogeneous yet : Necros aren't pure nukers (accept maybe MoP), Warriors aren't healers, Elem aren't melees, rangers are still shooting arrow (altought maybe with more AoE). The same way, mesmers aren't straight nukers yet, or at least they can't be on the same powerlevel than elem/necro/assass. They can be better damage dealer than in proph, but in the same way as before and still not as straight as the other.

Second, that would be one of the best solution for a killer mesmer type. We've already seen Al-ignoring straight nucking : CoP. We all know how that ended : it tears throught almost anything because mobs have no way to defend against it. That's the first problem with killer mesmer : if it's spike, it has to kill very fast, if it's AoE, it has to be competitive without allowing CoP2.0.

The problem with forcing to disrupt before killing is that why bother disrupting to kill first. Unless the mesmer can kill quickly and solo a disrupted mob, in wich case the disrupter mesmer would just shutdown and kill 1-2 mob while the rest of the team kill everything else : that mesmer would be mainly a disrupter, he would be innefficient as damage. To have a damage he would need to disrupt fast and kill in AoE.

maxxfury · Dec 26, 2009, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Second, that would be one of the best solution for a killer mesmer type. We've already seen Al-ignoring straight nucking : CoP. We all know how that ended : it tears throught almost anything because mobs have no way to defend against it. That's the first problem with killer mesmer : if it's spike, it has to kill very fast, if it's AoE, it has to be competitive without allowing CoP2.0.

The other good part about surge/burn style nuking is that: there is only so much blue bar to play with! so cant be abused cryway style, think 6 mes running esurge, anymore than one or two doin this gets you 0's cos the blue bar is all gone! wasting 4 surges ect as an example. a built in none abuse clause

unlike cop.

But still been powerfull enough to hold a spot as a single mes(maybe 2) in a team, doin some nuking! Or at least thats how i was visualising it! when i was thinking about this thread and what to do with mes to push them up the tier list to be more balanced with the upper tiers but not making them OP.

We already have condition overload covered and much more would be OP, pve skill spamming with AP covered too, Reactive hexes having a very low ceiling on damage compared to direct/proactive damage isnt favoured by me as a main dps spot, and disruption been very low on the priority list. So this imo is a good way they could take it!