Curse

panda11011 · Mar 13, 2010, 08:59 PM // 20:59

I recently started a Mesmer\Necro and was wondering if it was possible to make an effective MM out of it, I know Soul reaping is very helpful for MMs but was wondering just how effective I can be without it. I don't really use Mesmers often but I'm willing to learn they seem to be pretty powerful in the right hands.

IGN: Panda Reich <-- M\N

upier · Mar 13, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

**Marty Silverblade** · Mar 13, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Well, I'm not the biggest MM expert, but here's some stuff:

1) Mesmers cannot use Necromancer runes, so you'll be stuck at 12 Death Magic, whereas Necromancers usually run 16 (or even higher with Aura of the Lich and/or Masochism). Note that this means you'll have fewer minions (8, compared to 10+) and they'll be weaker.

2) Soul Reaping cannot be underestimated. An example: Assume 10 Soul Reaping and all 3 triggers in 15 seconds. SR will return 30 energy in 15 seconds, which is essentially the same as 2 energy/second. That's basically the same as having 6 extra energy pips. It won't necessarily work out this nicely (if it triggers when you've only spent 5 energy, for example), but my point is there. Necromancers will be able to pump out 15 energy minion summons on recharge for a long time, while the Mesmer is going to have to be a lot more selective about it.

3) Human MM's are generally inferior to Hero MM's because the AI can cast Death Nova on the weak ones easily, whereas you'll need to be watching every single minion and trying to click on one (which is usually in the middle of a mob). It really is quite fiddly.

PS: Why do you want to play MM on your Mes anyway? It's a Necro build, so run one on a Necro; and run Mesmer builds on your Mes.

Note: I'm not saying this won't work (practically anything will work), it's just not going to work very well.

Xenomortis · Mar 13, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

You'll face to core issues:

1.
You're stuck at a max rank of 12 in Death Magic. This means lower level minions that deal less damage, don't last as long, are healed for less from BotM and explode for less with Death Nova. Also, you'd only have 8 of them.

2.
Energy Management; you simply don't have enough to cope. MMs work well for Necros due to Soul Reaping. No mesmer skills can keep up with it. Stuff like Auspicious Incantation only postpone the inevitable and they won't postpone it for very long. As a MM you'll be needing to replace minions a lot and you won't be getting any energy returns when they die.

With the above in mind, the stronger Death Magic elites aren't really an option. You simply cannot run Order of Undeath and that fact alone pretty much nullifies the advantage having a human MM brings. You're stuck either with AoTL or a Mesmer elite for some energy management (Aura of Lyssa?).

The Mesmer skill lines simply don't bring anything to the table for a Minion Master. You can't really afford to spec into Fast Casting because you need to squeeze every energy management skill in Inspiration as much as possible just to be able to meet the costs.

It will probably work; in the same way using an Illusionary Weapon build whilst wielding a Hammer will probably work.
Stick to a Mesmer build, you'll be more effective.

cksoccerboy4 · Mar 14, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

ok since no one has mentioned it yet why not use signet of illusion???? get your illusion to 16 and then have the max minions.

Only downside I can think of is the fact that the build couldnt have an elite mm skill but you could basically use other skills and energy management will work very well across either profession at 16. just my thought

FoxBat · Mar 14, 2010, 01:03 AM // 01:03

The energy aspect was retardedly easy to handle before they nerfed cultists to require soul reaping.

Anyway I've found that AotL (+ maybe shambling) + random other attribute line bar = good times. If you are the only MM, there will be a pile of corpses around to raise many with just that one skill and 15e, and said minions are sturdier than bone minions. You can try to play around with the usual death stuff, botm, death nova, maybe arcane echo aotl, ... or you can just ignore that and put something completely different on your bar, curses, interruptions, dom stuff, pve skills, whatever. You'll only have to actually summon minions occasionally so they won't get in the way of whatever the rest of your bar is doing.

-Makai- · Mar 14, 2010, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Back when I first started, I went Mesmer Minion Master from Ascalon to the Desert...then I came to my senses. It's really not a viable combo.

OzmaIX · Mar 14, 2010, 01:19 AM // 01:19

It might work, when the next nerf comes and Anet boosts some skills?

awry · Mar 14, 2010, 01:22 AM // 01:22

right to bypass death magic, you could always use consumables such as golden eggs or candy corn. um, well the only reason someone would use mesmers as a minion master is for the fast cast, but really, if you just use red rock candy, you'll pretty much bypass that advantage instantly.

Targren · Mar 14, 2010, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by cksoccerboy4

ok since no one has mentioned it yet why not use signet of illusion???? get your illusion to 16 and then have the max minions.

Only downside I can think of is the fact that the build couldnt have an elite mm skill but you could basically use other skills and energy management will work very well across either profession at 16. just my thought

Not sure how that would work since if you artificially buff Death Magic, "extra" minions die as soon as the effect ends and DM drops to normal

zelgadissan · Mar 14, 2010, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Two words: Bloodstained Insignia.

If you're thinking Fast Casting will make up for it, Xenomortis already covered the fact that your Inspiration will have to be at ungodly levels to handle energy management. 12 Death/10 Insp/8 Fast might not be enough to make it worthwhile. I'd expect to be running 12/11/6 at the least, probably more realistically 12/12/3. Maybe a 12 Death/11+1+2 Insp/6+1 Fast would work. Of course, this isn't even including everything else already covered, such as minion limits, minion levels, etc.

However, as upier already covered, lolguildwars, so yeah, it can work.

Xenomortis · Mar 14, 2010, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Not sure how that would work since if you artificially buff Death Magic, "extra" minions die as soon as the effect ends and DM drops to normal

Actually no.
The minion cap is only checked when you create a minion, so if you raise DM to 16 with SoI, you can have 10 minions and they won't all die when SoI expires unless you try to raise another one..

Chthon · Mar 14, 2010, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Effective?
No.
MM?
Yes.

Nobody will tell you to run it and if you party with people, I would imagine they will all kick you, but if you want to play it with heroes and hench - knock yourself out and enjoy it.

Pretty much this. Me/N "MM" is going to suck pretty badly. Your best bet would probably be SoI, though that costs you the elite slot (which dooms you to not being a good MM) and doesn't solve the energy problems.

upier · Mar 14, 2010, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Xenomortis · Mar 14, 2010, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

+2 to Death AND Soul Reaping would also be worth it.

You won't get energy from Soul Reaping.

upier · Mar 14, 2010, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Xenomortis · Mar 14, 2010, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Wiki says you should.
Or was it changed?

Just tested and it turns out you do.
But remember it's only up for 10 seconds unless you power it with SoI and you need 3 deaths in that time (maxing the SR timer) to make it worthwhile.

upier · Mar 14, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Sethellington · Mar 15, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

I'd say leave it to the hero. I'm mainly a nec and I only ever played MM before NF, but now heroes do a better job at bombing.

Painbringer · Mar 17, 2010, 03:13 PM // 15:13

MM is possible but the lack of energy recoup make you rely on corpses to regain or inspiration. Which helps for short term but long term will get hairy.

IMO Spirit Pooper is a better option when it comes to spawning little helpers...they are tougher and last longer in a fight. I have Gwen running ME/Rit build right now and she has no problems at all with it (keep in mind not optimal but it is possible)