Curse

eversilentone · Dec 06, 2010, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Hope that got your attention

My guild regularly does DoA and they're kind enough to bring me along. Mostly it's bringing a Panic build (then spamming Chaos Storm and Cry of Pain, which is Arcane Echo'd). That's fine and every time I see a "!!!" above a mob's head I get some gratification.

Recently I've also run a DwG build - which I have to say was one of the least fulfilling moments of my life. I reckon (although I was kinda busy at the time) that at best I was averaging 55 dps, but with running out of energy - and dying! you're right in the mobs' faces! - that probably rounds off to roughly 25/30 dps. Which kinda sucks, imo. After all – Chaos Storm does 21 dps at Dom12. Clearly not enough for folk to complain - they just see the big whizzy numbers above heads and presume that it's amazing. Mostly because it's a cookie cutter and en vogue.

Now, not to detract from Panic builds (which I enjoy, but kinda feels a little un-Mesmery as one spell does all the interrupting for me!) or DwG builds (hey - people wouldn't take them if they didn't work) but I think we can do better.

My arguments for doing things differently:

1.) Fast Casting. It rocks. I've returned to GW after a break and can no longer play my Nec because I can't cope with 2s cast times! Waaaaay too slow. So yes, it doesn't affect the aftercast, which is unfortunate, but seriously, as standard I run most of my builds (even Panic!) at 12+1+1 FC, so casting a 2s spell in 1s - well, it rocks my socks. Energy aside (and I know that's a big aside!) if you halve the casting time, all else being equal you double the dps.

2) Fast Casting. Again! The recharge decrease on Mesmer skills has the potential to be game breaking. A consistent 42% (at FC14) recharge bonus? Even without the bonus from weapon mods? Amazing.

3) Fast Casting! Nearly - here I'm specifically thinking about Mantra of Recovery. At FC14 not only is this easy to keep up forever without any real mana strain, but it provides amazing recharge times. Like this (in the format of Normal Cast Time/Cast Time at FC14/Cast Time at FC14 with Mantra of Recovery)

5/3/2
10/6/4
15/9/6
20/12/8
25/15/10
30/18/12

Sorry - not very good at formatting things, but as per above a spell that normally recharges in 15s - say, the pve staple that is Cry of Pain - would recharge in 9 seconds with an FC14, but under MoR actually recharges in just 6s!

That's right - energy aside, you could cast CoP every 6s, and that's before you include and Arcane Echo! Chuck in a Fragility for cheap aoe hexing and that's some serious damage - between 3 skills (MoR, CoP and Frag) you're doing 18 dps (factoring in the 5 pips of degeneration). That's quite aside from any incidental benefits from interrupting your target...

4) Fast Casting? Yeah nearly done here, I promise. Stolen Speed is the most ridiculously OP spell at the moment, but the difficulties with it are twin. Firstly you can't see it, so people have to know that you're bringing it before they "see" your contribution; it *is* an elite, after all. Secondly it upwardly scales depending on a number of factors, including the number of foes and the difficulty of the encounter.

In DoA you're usually firing blindly into large groups of powerful mobs (once the healers are dead) - so anything that kills or helps kill multiple mobs gets progressively more useful. Panic on 2 people? Bad. Panic on 15? Perma aoe interrupting goodness

Everyone wants to use a conset in DoA. Fair enough. But an Essence of Celerity will only increase spell casting by 20% - Stolen Speed increases spell casting by 50! That's right - our elite is more effective than an EoC by 150%

That's not to say it can replace it totally - EoC also improves movement speed, attack speed and skill recharge. And, of course, Stolen Speed only benefits damage dealers casting spells at foes, so it's useless to healers and weapon users. But as per my previous point: all things being equal, halving the casting time means doubling the damage. So using Stolen Speed a Mesmer their self might not be contributing enormous damage, but might allow the group a massive overall damage increase.

5) Ineptitude. It rocks so hard right now, and given the abusable AI (even casters will auto attack between spells) it’s great aoe, armour ignoring damage. The blindness is just for fun, especially if you have fragility as your cover hex for CoP.

So what do we have here? Well, you’re smarter than me. But it seems that if we’re to earn our place in any group we have to bring something unique to the table. Nobody questions a Monk’s dps if they’re healing – it’s zero or near as – but it is accepted that they are enhancing the team. So too, I believe, should a Mesmer running Stolen Speed be viewed.

I haven’t spoken about some of the other juicy elites, namely Psychic Instability (aoe 4s knock down?!) or Visions of Regret, partly because with PI you can’t always guarantee that the guy you want to interrupt will be standing conveniently next to a large group of pals to floor the lot of them. Or in the case of VoR, it does nothing against auto-attacks and my entire Mesmer ethos is to stop bad things from happening and let the Elementalists punish the mobs if they actually *do* the bad things

That is, of course, not to say that these things aren’t viable.

So currently I propose a one Mesmer solution and a two Mesmer solution. Both for consideration and both work in progress.

The One Mesmer Solution:

Stolen Speed
Chaos Storm
Cry of Pain
Arcane Echo
Unnatural Signet
Guilt
Shame
Res of choice

Benefits the team if there are loads of Necros or Elementalists. Does consistent aoe damage, Guilt and Shame for e-management (I rarely run anything else nowadays, except for Arcane Conundrum in Illusion builds – poor Inspiration!). Handy interrupts too, should they be required – most groups of mobs have mixed casters; it’s rare to find yourself without a target to tab to in order to grab some energy. Unnatural Signet can also be subbed for Cry of Frustration if you’re confident about energy or need the extra interrupt.

The Two Mesmer Solution:

First Mesmer:

Mantra of Recovery
Arcane Mimicry
Cry of Pain
Signet of Clumsiness
Arcane Echo
Arcane Conundrum
Lightbringer Signet
Res of choice

Second Mesmer:

Ineptitude
Arcane Mimicry
Arcane Conundrum
Arcane Echo
Cry of Pain
Signet of Clumsiness
Lightbringer Signet
Res of choice

The Mesmers use Arcane Mimicy to grab the others' elite allowing spamming of AE’d Ineptitude to huge proportions. You’re helping to control casters somewhat via Arcane Conundrum (which doubles as e-management) and CoP. In more caster heavy situation CoP can be AE’d instead of Ineptitude.

A quick note: I don’t include a self heal for DoA simply because they’re generally so weak for Mesmers that there’s little point. If you’re running high Inspiration then Ether Feast can help, but it’s not great. And other decent healing skills either require a decent attribute point investment, are expensive or just aren’t good. About the only self heal I’d consider is the Assassin Faction skill Shadow Sanctuary. But even then, if you’re getting beaten up and a Monk doesn’t have your back then you’re going down regardless, so why bother?

So… what do you think? Any and all suggestions appreciated. I am a total Mesmer fanboy, unapologetically so. But I also am loyal to my guild and want to contribute as much as I can, rather than just being dead weight. The update earlier this year gave us a huge boost – I just want to make sure we’re using it

awry · Dec 07, 2010, 12:52 AM // 00:52

I'm a necro so I can't relate to your concerns about lack of energy. LOL lack of energy hahaha

Saru The Boss · Dec 07, 2010, 01:02 AM // 01:02

join a DoASC guild. 2 Tanks+ 1 Bonder+ 1 Healer and four Mesmer spikers blowing stuff up in less than an hour in HM is a bazzilion times better than 5 Any/DwG running around for 3 hours blowing stuff up (and getting blown up) in NM. It's where Mesmers really shine and, not to mention, it's really fun.

eversilentone · Dec 07, 2010, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by awry

I'm a necro so I can't relate to your concerns about lack of energy. LOL lack of energy hahaha

There is that

But I enjoy the fact that my e-management comes from me *doing* something, rather than dumping points into an attribute and sitting back and casting. Each to their own, eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saru The Boss

join a DoASC guild. 2 Tanks+ 1 Bonder+ 1 Healer and four Mesmer spikers blowing stuff up in less than an hour in HM is a bazzilion times better than 5 Any/DwG running around for 3 hours blowing stuff up (and getting blown up) in NM. It's where Mesmers really shine and, not to mention, it's really fun.

I love my guild, so I'd not swap, but I take your point. Never actually done DoA in HM, but seen the build. But I don't think one spike build would be any good - you'd just run out of energy with plenty of mobs still alive whilst the DwG fiends were waiting for AE to recharge...

Fate Crusher · Dec 07, 2010, 01:55 AM // 01:55

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_DoA_Frostway

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_DoA_Trenchway

Frostway is the better DwG build, where winter and Mantra of frost comes into play for Energy Management. To the defense of DwG, you might complain about how lame it can be, but it's not melee damage which makes things a lot easier.

Trenchway would be recommended if your guild decides to take DoA seriously and you guys can clear the entire place within 35 minutes if ya'll know what you're doing (I haven't tried this because I'm a casual player myself).

But I never do DoA in NM because of how small the chests are. HM doubles the chest drops and also Frostway can get you to complete DoA in 2 hours.

FoxBat · Dec 07, 2010, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by eversilentone

But I don't think one spike build would be any good - you'd just run out of energy with plenty of mobs still alive whilst the DwG fiends were waiting for AE to recharge...

Spike build (trenchway) doesn't run DwG. The shadow form tanks take some time gathering a large number of enemies into a very tight ball, then the mesmers blow that ball up in seconds, with nothing left alive. The main key is compressing foes into the ball so the AoE achieves maximum efficiency. Its going to take some practice to get it right though, not the best build for people randomly coming and going.

If you want a balanceway to meet or beat DwG (without approaching the spike build) the general approach is going to be fill your team with physicals and buff the hell out of them, possibly with a panic mesmer doing some support. Not getting meager eles and necros to cast faster under stolen speed, nor the occasional procs of clumsiness. You can do some real damage with panic if you bring wastrel's worry and channeling, get up close and just tab+spam, with a tight ball enough of your wastrels will go off for decent AoE and they are practically free to cast and extremely fast anyway.

Balistic Pve · Dec 07, 2010, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Also, Panic is far superior. Why? The interrupts are godly. And there isn't much that can compare to it other than VoR.

eversilentone · Dec 07, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

snip
But I never do DoA in NM because of how small the chests are. HM doubles the chest drops and also Frostway can get you to complete DoA in 2 hours.

Thanks for the builds. I guess we're somewhere between uber casual and casual in terms of a guild, insofar as we want people to run what they want to run. In that sense, whenever we play it's a bit like a Guild PUG. It's very unlikely we'd ever run a team build, hence why I posted here: I was hoping to optimise *my* contribution as hopefully I'll be popping along anyway

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Spike build (trenchway) doesn't run DwG. The shadow form tanks take some time gathering a large number of enemies into a very tight ball, then the mesmers blow that ball up in seconds, with nothing left alive. The main key is compressing foes into the ball so the AoE achieves maximum efficiency. Its going to take some practice to get it right though, not the best build for people randomly coming and going.

This has great appeal to me, but as per the last sentence, it's not likely something I'll get to try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

If you want a balanceway to meet or beat DwG (without approaching the spike build) the general approach is going to be fill your team with physicals and buff the hell out of them, possibly with a panic mesmer doing some support. Not getting meager eles and necros to cast faster under stolen speed, nor the occasional procs of clumsiness.

I ran a build with Lyssa's Aura, Clumsiness and Wandering Eye. I was able to spam the last two liberally. I can honestly say that the procs were not "occasional" and that the damage was well in excess of DwG. I guess this is primarily the thing I'm talking about. I'm not saying you're wrong about not buffing Necros and Eles; to an extent you're mortgaging your own damage so that you can enhance theirs, and if they, as players, don't contribute then you're just stuffing your own damage. Where I do disagree is the idea that there is no workable build and that, without genuine examination, it has no chance of working. Heck, you could (and probably should!) include Smiting Monks in the damaging spellcasters ranks (my bad, sorry!) and fast casting double RoJ has got to be a good thing, right?

Really - Stolen Speed and EVS of Wisdom - uber buff, no?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

You can do some real damage with panic if you bring wastrel's worry and channeling, get up close and just tab+spam, with a tight ball enough of your wastrels will go off for decent AoE and they are practically free to cast and extremely fast anyway.

Yeah that's true, I've not had the confidence to try Wastrel's spam in DoA, but you're right that it's a damaging build. Except for Panic, per se: useful, undoubtedly, but it doesn't damage. And that's where I get confused: I think a lot of non-Mesmers have decided that Panic is a good non-damage skill (and it is!) so it's ok to run it, but anything else non-damage just isn't good enough (see Stolen Speed...). In some senses I just don't think people know Mesmers enough, even after the boost. The downside of cookie cutters I suppose?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balistic Pve

Also, Panic is far superior. Why? The interrupts are godly. And there isn't much that can compare to it other than VoR.

I guess this just proves my point. Not that you're necessarily wrong, but bald assertions aren't convincing arguments. Show me numbers, stats, screenies or actual experiences to compare things to. Otherwise you're essentially saying "I'm right but you have to take my word for it", and, no disrespect, but that's not how I roll.

The Drunkard · Dec 09, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by eversilentone

I guess this just proves my point. Not that you're necessarily wrong, but bald assertions aren't convincing arguments. Show me numbers, stats, screenies or actual experiences to compare things to. Otherwise you're essentially saying "I'm right but you have to take my word for it", and, no disrespect, but that's not how I roll.

LOD is currently tied for the record in DoAsc (pics can be found in the High-end forum). They use VoR among other things, though any more than that I won't say.

moldmaker · Dec 09, 2010, 02:49 AM // 02:49

i'm not sure that i will rock the boat here but assassins promise takes care of energy and doubles and triples skill layout on enemy, its on the lever of cheating. Ive had monsters go right through a group just to get me.. (bull is usually what i yell

). try it some time
mold

draxynnic · Jan 01, 2011, 12:01 PM // 12:01

I've seen (and used) Panic in anger. Get a large enough enemy group together, and it's effectively shut down.

Regarding Stolen Speed and fast casting in general: One problem I see here is that a lot of builds aren't limited by casting times in the amount of damage they can do, but by the recharges on their big spells - and this is doubly true when it comes to area-of-effect spells (what you want in the DoA). As a result, I suspect the increased damage output you get through Stolen Speed, even with a party inclined towards a spellcasting offense, may well be less than simply adding Energy Surge or MoR to your own build.