Curse

HigherMinion · Mar 06, 2011, 04:30 AM // 04:30

PI isn't that good.

A hero won't spam it. Human can't rupt reliably.
You lock your self onto using only one rupt, balling/targeting well and max fastcast, ofc.

Chthon · Mar 06, 2011, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

I really see 0 use for Fevered Dreams insofar as applying Daze AND Blind, because 90% of the time enemy casters aren't going to be anywhere near enemy physicals.

1. The AoE range is pretty big.
2. The 10% of the time when they are together includes the initial aggro. You ought to be able to get off (Frag->)FD->YMLAD->Ash Blast before the melee get out of range of the casters. (And the cripple on YMLAD is helpful in making them more likely to stay close.)
3. Change your positioning. There's no rule that says your party's casters need to stand waaay the heck back. They just usually stand there because it's safest. But sometimes it's not safest, and therefore not a smart place to stand. One example is a team where the only copy of SY is on a melee. The situation where everything close enough to the enemy casterball is blind courtesy of FD is another example.

Wenspire · Mar 06, 2011, 08:14 AM // 08:14

My hero uses PI just fine. It's really a matter of what else you tossed on to their bar.

I've used fevered dreams with great success. This was before the large mesmer update. After-which, interrupts became much more plausible to use (which was the original reason why I wanted to play amesmer) so I changed over to PI. I ran panic a few times but never liked the skill.

Outerworld · Mar 06, 2011, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

12 fast casting is maxed out? With runes and a headpiece thats nothing. 12/10/8 and 10/10/11 are perfectly normal splits. Given that its an excellent primary attribute there should be no problem.

Of course, 16 FC gets you a 6s recharge on Psychic Instability. That's just lovely. Exponential decrease in recharge time and all. Keep in mind you are also getting a 8s recharge on Waste Not, Want Not, and other similar benefits for the rest of your bar.

Even with runes and headpiece your speccing fairly high into FC which means less points to put in dom or illusion.

A 6 second recharge at 16 FC is nice and all but how can you justify pushing it so high?

Illusiona · Mar 09, 2011, 04:54 PM // 16:54

OP is right.

Panic loses this fight. I like to use FD with YMLaD, for an area wide snare, while I use my triple RoJ monk team to wreak havoc on foes that WILL take the brunt of the damage.

On a side note, i hotkey the RoJ's, heroes tend to waste them on insignificant / already dying foes or even hostile nature rituals.

Add an Extend Conditions mesmer for extra funsies!

Kunder · Mar 09, 2011, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. The AoE range is pretty big.
2. The 10% of the time when they are together includes the initial aggro. You ought to be able to get off (Frag->)FD->YMLAD->Ash Blast before the melee get out of range of the casters. (And the cripple on YMLAD is helpful in making them more likely to stay close.)

This depends very highly upon the exact area and mob. Some mobs ball up into an inch of space constantly, others are always spread out. To be sure, its probably really nice if you can cripple them for the first 5s or so since then your melee and/or minions are in close enough to bodyblock them within range. I'll have to play around with it a bit more in other areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. Change your positioning. There's no rule that says your party's casters need to stand waaay the heck back. They just usually stand there because it's safest. But sometimes it's not safest, and therefore not a smart place to stand. One example is a team where the only copy of SY is on a melee. The situation where everything close enough to the enemy casterball is blind courtesy of FD is another example.

As I already said, if you are doing this then Panic is most likely even more effective because you can spam WW/WD for lol-damage at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Even with runes and headpiece your speccing fairly high into FC which means less points to put in dom or illusion.

A 6 second recharge at 16 FC is nice and all but how can you justify pushing it so high?

4s AoE knockdown on a 6s recharge isn't ball-bustingly good? If there was a way to have a hero always prioritize casting PI when it was ready as soon as the next enemy cast a skill then a PI mesmer hero would be the next imbagon.

Outerworld · Mar 09, 2011, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

4s AoE knockdown on a 6s recharge isn't ball-bustingly good? If there was a way to have a hero always prioritize casting PI when it was ready as soon as the next enemy cast a skill then a PI mesmer hero would be the next imbagon.

I agree a 4s KD with 6s recharge is very good, but not good enough to merit speccing 16 FC considering how much lower you then have to spec into Dom/Illu since realistically your going to want to spec insp as well.

HigherMinion · Mar 09, 2011, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

I agree a 4s KD with 6s recharge is very good, but not good enough to merit speccing 16 FC considering how much lower you then have to spec into Dom/Illu since realistically your going to want to spec insp as well.

The real reason is:

1. Reliability on a human to interrupt a spell in Hard Mode consistently every 6 seconds is unlikely.
2. A hero doesn't spam it on recharge.

Kunder · Mar 10, 2011, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

The real reason is:

1. Reliability on a human to interrupt a spell in Hard Mode consistently every 6 seconds is unlikely.
2. A hero doesn't spam it on recharge.

Too true. For all the 'lol heroes interrupt so well' crap you hear, they really are still pretty shitty at it if you watch them and they don't prioritize using PI much at all.

Do note that it does trigger on all skills, not just spells. With the un-buffs to HM enemy cast time its quite possible for a player to hit PI consistently against many mobs, especially if they have a way to slow down enemy attack rate and/or cast speed. For others, its still a coin toss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

I agree a 4s KD with 6s recharge is very good, but not good enough to merit speccing 16 FC considering how much lower you then have to spec into Dom/Illu since realistically your going to want to spec insp as well.

You shouldn't really need 4 attributes, and 3 attributes is very easy to do as 12/10/8 or 11/10/10 (sacrificing 1 or 2 FC wouldn't immensely hurt). Keep in mind, high FC lowers the recharge of your inspiration energy management and your Dom/Ill damage spells, so what you lose in variety you gain in spammability.

Outerworld · Mar 10, 2011, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Fair enough high FC means you can spam insp rupts more often, but you seem to have missed my point about Dom or illusion. At 10 it does less than impressive damage compared to what it is at 14-16.

One other thing to consider with PI, a 4s KD is as good as it will ever get compared to FD which has the potential to do much, much more. Its not that I think PI is bad, if you can land the rupts often then its a good option, I just don't think it can match FD thats all.

aspi · Mar 14, 2011, 01:33 PM // 13:33

So I am pretty new with my mesmer, but it seems to me that I am just a bit too slow to be a good one

Also if I take a second mesmer(which I do) powerdrain for energy is just a waste because the hero mesmer is insanly fast.
I think I might wanna try this fevered dreams build, and gonna get cry of pain as my first pve skill.
Panic was nice but to be honest this seems to be a bit more for me

mage767 · Mar 14, 2011, 02:37 PM // 14:37

The way you should use the elites is like this:

You: FD
Hero/Merc mesmer: Panic
Necro heroes: clean-up

It's pretty much game over after that point.

FD is the BEST mesmer elite to turn hardest foes into little rabbits. All in HM.

AndrewSX · Mar 14, 2011, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Another problem of Panic and FD vs. PInstability is the e-management imo.

With Panic(that will be likely spammed to mantain for most of the fight) and the 2 wastrel's skill(nobody can resist to use something that is recharged, and these 2 have 1 and 3 sec cooldown, w/o consider FC reduction) you can easily drain your energy pool if you're not paying attention. Want not waste not becomes a must.

On the other hand, FD is also energy intensive. Even considering only the base skillbar: FD(10 ene)->YMLAD(10 ene)->FH(10 ene)->(Cry of pain? 10 ene)-> plus random condition-applying skills. Average Mez pool is about 40-50, so you must again bring some e-management skills(arcane conudrum and drain delusions usually, but i'm considering the kurz necro sig also).
When i use FD on a necro, for example, the only skill used for management is SolS (still optional tbh), cause Soul Reaping is enough to keep up your blue bar. Obviously you lose some speed (FD takes 2 sec to cast w/o FC), but it's just the down side to do not use primary Mez.

PI isn't really costly for energy (5 ene every 6/10 sec depending on FC) even if you spam it, and still leaves rooms for other 7 skills for your ene. And about the reliability of a human interrupt, Daze, hexes affecting casting times (Arcane conudrum, Stolen speed, frustration,...) are your friend. Also, why do not use reactive rupts like Mistrust when running PI?

Cuilan · Mar 14, 2011, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Because Mistrust doesn't interrupt and it cares about the type of skills being used by the foe. Energy management on a mesmer for Fevered Dreams is fine as long as you aren't wasteful and make each skill use count.

Outerworld · Mar 14, 2011, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

With Panic(that will be likely spammed to mantain for most of the fight) and the 2 wastrel's skill(nobody can resist to use something that is recharged, and these 2 have 1 and 3 sec cooldown, w/o consider FC reduction) you can easily drain your energy pool if you're not paying attention. Want not waste not becomes a must.

Simple solution is too pay attention then?

AndrewSX · Mar 14, 2011, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Because Mistrust doesn't interrupt and it cares about the type of skills being used by the foe. Energy management on a mesmer for Fevered Dreams is fine as long as you aren't wasteful and make each skill use count.

Direct copy-paste from wiki:

"For 6 seconds, the next spell that target foe casts on one of your allies fails and deals 30...114 damage to that foe and all nearby foes."

Now, if a spell fails, that spell isn't successfully activated, wich mean it IS interrupted(lol just different terms...

). And about the fact that can affect only ostile spell, i believe is a right downside for a nearly sure rupt(unless massive hex removal) + 100ish aoe armor ignoring damage. Same goes for
Shame and such.

About FD e-management, i was just pointing that you have to be careful when using skills to maximize their usefulness, cause using just your 1-2-3-4 combo will leave you w/o so much ene.
Surely i agree that playing wisely and using appropriate e-management skills allow a FD Mez to pump out a continuos flow of hexes/condition/rupts w/o ene problems. And, anyways, with 7 heroes is always possible to have a Blood Ritual as back-up somewhere.

@above: seen just now when posting. Yes, it was exactely the point. Mindless-played Mesmers are the WORST Mesmer possible(i've learned it when i've started to use more often mine).

Outerworld · Mar 14, 2011, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Yes, it was exactely the point. Mindless-played Mesmers are the WORST Mesmer possible(i've learned it when i've started to use more often mine).

While i agree however, this is a fault in the players, not in the skill.

AndrewSX · Mar 14, 2011, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

While i agree however, this is a fault in the players, not in the skill.

/agree.

However, some skills/build are more affected by the "player factor" than others in various aspects(not only the ene-management).

That was my idea. Panic+WW+WD can lead to poor e-management easier than PI+random mes skill(if the build isn't THAT terrible) in the hands of a mediocre player.

The proof imo is what do you give to heroes(that are quite....stupid).
Panic+WW+WD=lol goodbye ene. Only Panic is given among these 3 skills.
FD+frag+cond skils=very poor effectiveness. Heroes sucks at positioning/chaining.
PI+random mes skills=acceptable mez. Not amazing, but still nice.

Outerworld · Mar 14, 2011, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

/agree.

However, some skills/build are more affected by the "player factor" than others in various aspects(not only the ene-management).

That was my idea. Panic+WW+WD can lead to poor e-management easier than PI+random mes skill(if the build isn't THAT terrible) in the hands of a mediocre player.

The proof imo is what do you give to heroes(that are quite....stupid).
Panic+WW+WD=lol goodbye ene. Only Panic is given among these 3 skills.
FD+frag+cond skils=very poor effectiveness. Heroes sucks at positioning/chaining.
PI+random mes skills=acceptable mez. Not amazing, but still nice.

Fair enough I guess.

Cuilan · Mar 14, 2011, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Now, if a spell fails, that spell isn't successfully activated, wich mean it IS interrupted(lol just different terms...

).

Interrupts and skill failure have separate wiki pages.