Curse

randomname · May 25, 2011, 11:24 AM // 11:24

I am currently working on getting my Mesmer her titles and considered the heroes I run with her. Up to now it was 1 AoD Dervish, 1 ST Rit, 3 Necro (not discord) and of course 2 mesmers.

The hero mesmers is currently set up with a standard Panic and Ineptitude bar. Which leaves me wondering what bar I should run. I guess I could go the normal AP+pve skills, however I prefer playing with mesmer skills.

Which led me to consider which elite I could run with my mesmer heroes.

1. Keystone. I always like playing with signets. Except for 2 or 3 signets there is nothing really exciting though.
2. Visions of Regret. Really interesting Elite in pve, however I am not convinced that it will be practical with a panic hero.
3. Shared Burden. Seems to have the same issues regarding a panic hero. However I am working on survivor on the mesmer currently so it might be a good idea to put on my panic hero instead?
4. Energy Surge. Solid choice for some decent AoE? Overall AoE damage will fall behind Keystone signet if I am not mistaken?

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and any suggestions would be highly appreciated. Please keep in mind that my main focus is not dying right now, so it might seem that I am a bit too focused on defence, however that is exactly how I prefer playing right now.

Haggis of Doom · May 25, 2011, 04:11 PM // 16:11

1. Heroes use Keystone builds very poorly. Mess with it on your own bar if you like;

2. VoR is indeed a bad choice with 3 mesmers in your party;

3. Shared Burden anti-synergizes with the Ineptitude hero. And since the Ineptitude bar is very, very good, people generally don't run Shared Burden. It has value for retreats, however. Note that its effects are mostly replicable with Tryptophan Signet or Sum of All Fears (yes, Ineptitude is mostly replicable with Clumsiness as well, but using these 2 together actually yields greater results; slow, on the other hand, only needs 1 copy, and the spells are already slowed by Arcane Conundrum);

4. ESurge is reliable damage (more reliable than Keystone which will not deal damage to isolated targets), and if enough shutdown is in the team people usually go Ineptitude + 2x ESurge.

I personally recommend Keystone, Fevered Dreams or Psychic Instability for your own bar (PI steps on the Ineptitude's toes unfortunately). If you go with FD, you may have to revise your team to see who applies which conditions and whatnot.

FoxBat · May 25, 2011, 05:10 PM // 17:10

An ebon assassin will do more for your team than basically anything else, short of becoming a tank yourself. If you lead off a battle with it catching aggro, it will help ball enemies for your AoE-centric mesmer team to destroy. If you feel you need AP to run assassins then there you have it. A mesmer hero can run most of the elites you would bring yourself anyway.

Heroes are fine with keystone depending on what signets you hand them (I.E. do not load up on interrupts), I don't know what Haggis is on about. Signet of Sorrow works particularly well, a pile of smite signets will also be spammed on recharge. They do miss out on options like tryptophan and corruption though.

The Josip · May 25, 2011, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Try this on yourself (it's better than EVAS, provided you wait sometimes two sec for mob to ball by itself):

Arcane Echo + Mistrust + CoP + Mistrust + Energy Surge + CoF

Not necessarily in that order as it depends on the enemy move. You can use Auspicious Incantation (requires investment in Inspiration then) but it's not needed, you can use Arcane Echo just after you kill the mob, so energy regens while you're running to the next one (might still be useful, I use BiPs and Blood Rituals). The remaining two skills are pretty much wildcards, and you're only using 1 PvE skill. Feel free to experiment with the rest.

As for heroes, I use E-Surges (x2, my Razah is a mesmer) and Ineptitude. I dislike Keystone, but it's based on a fast test on myself - maybe it works better on a hero. I also dislike Panic in general PvE, but it can be fun.

Other stuff:
AP build is strong as usual and possibly the best in areas with scattered mobs, or non 8-man areas. But you may get bored of it.
PI s very fun, use it with Wisdom and any staff (for fun you can even use FC HSR wand/focus). In this way you will have 4-sec knockdown and PI will mostly recharge in 4 sec.

My suggestion is try it all, the difference in time won't be big, but difference in playstyle will. If you're going for survivor maybe instead of ST Rit (who is only really great if you micromanage) take EMo prot and hotkey Protective Spirit so you can recast it on yourself as often as needed. It should drastically reduce chance of dying. If you go with the first build I posted, you will have enough attribute points to put 9 in Command or Tactics, to get full armor from the shield.

FoxBat · May 26, 2011, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Try this on yourself (it's better than EVAS, provided you wait sometimes two sec for mob to ball by itself):

Arcane Echo + Mistrust + CoP + Mistrust + Energy Surge + CoF

Assuming they are all ranged guys. This does jack all for keeping melee with the casters. Not to mention, you can just staple a single assassin and AP on that bar and jack out constant echoed mistrusts and CoPs instead of esurge. Heck you can even run the sin WITH esurge and pray a ward of wisdom recharges it, as long as ST rit can keep that first sin alive long enough.

PI lock can achieve a similar thing re: balling, but then you're going to need keystone and wastrel spam to kill anything, not typical reactive mes stuff like mistrust/cofs and illusion.

This is PvE so you can do what you like, but after getting off AP for a while and then returning to it, I found the ability to ball melee with the ranged guys far too beneficial for a hero team based on AoE. You may not be producing the big numbers yourself, but the heroes don't have the timing and positional awareness to herd things into a single zone of death, they can handle the mindless nuking part just fine though.

Lanier · May 26, 2011, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I recommend dropping the panic hero. With that many mesmers in the group, you will have so much passive shutdown that panic is unnecessary (although its already unnecessary if you have a minion master plus an effective backline). For 3 mesmer heroes, my recommendations would be either 2 e-surges and an ineptitude or 1 e-surge, 1 ineptitude, and 1 shared burden.

The Josip · May 26, 2011, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Assuming they are all ranged guys. This does jack all for keeping melee with the casters. Not to mention, you can just staple a single assassin and AP on that bar and jack out constant echoed mistrusts and CoPs instead of esurge. Heck you can even run the sin WITH esurge and pray a ward of wisdom recharges it, as long as ST rit can keep that first sin alive long enough.

I am not saying EVAS isn't a strong skill, but there's place for 2 PvE skills on the skillbar I typed. I actually ran APer with EVAS balling and Mistrust etc as opening move (after reading your post), and the results were pretty interesting: even, down to the last minute (both builds had same completion time). Non-AP build might've even been 1min faster if I didn't carelessly aggro too much and wipe once, but then again if I perhaps adjusted team build more for evas balling it would go the other way.

I am not going to be the one dismissing AP as I used it a lot and know how strong it can be, but I'm not the one to give tips on balling either as I'm no expert in that. My experience with melee that 'breaks off' is much like this: initial salvo damages even these 1-2 melee and then Ineptitude mesmer finishes them off. While we could argue that he would do better killing off the group, my fast tests again showed that in practice these build comparisons are purely academic: the differences are so small that you're better off just choosing the build you have more fun with.

That's the reason why I suggested PI so much, from the very beginning when everyone was talking about Panic etc. PI with Wisdom and HSR is extremely fun game mechanic that no other profession can even come close to.

ps: Oh, and of course, with echoed AP-EVAS one can reduce defense and increase offense, since EVASes offer protection in many ways. I did not have time to optimize myself but I am pretty sure proper optimization would yield visible results. E-Surge is really not that great elite for a player, it's mostly about choosing echoed Mistrust as the opening move, or echoed EVAS. As I run BiP and don't need Inspiration at all, investing into Deadly Arts costs me nothing.

maxxfury · May 26, 2011, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

That's the reason why I suggested PI so much, from the very beginning when everyone was talking about Panic etc. PI with Wisdom and HSR is extremely fun game mechanic that no other profession can even come close to.

Earthshaker? that gives you a perma kd lock.. and without the luck % of a big HSR from the standard.

*edit: good Catch Josip! lol.. that was a brain fart! had to rush out without proof reading xD

The Josip · May 26, 2011, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Backbreaker? that gives you a perma kd lock.. and without the luck % of a big HSR from the standard.

They're still very different.

You have around 80% chance to knocklock with PI (don't know exact math), if you use Wisdom with HSR. Even just inherent staff HSR is good enough (and all I used). Otherwise it's still 4/8 seconds - not that bad. Worse thing is you gotta interrupt something while Backbreaker works on everything, but you have to hit and not get blocked/blinded etc.

I take it you mean Earthshaker? Either way, PI is "nearby", not single-target kd or adjacent. It doesn't require building adrenaline and can be used as an opening move, before enemy mob disperses or casts the most dangerous spells. Also, PI is classic 1/4 interrupt. Earthshaker/Backbreaker is more like Earthquake/Dragon Stomp - it's a knockdown, not really an interrupt in itself.

Anyway, gonna go play more with AP now, since Foxbat made me. I really hate him for it, because after getting bored of AP I wanted to play more with other fresh skills.

Nevertheless EVAS spam gave me an idea I want to test.

maxxfury · May 26, 2011, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Fgj+enraging charge, then your first hit gives you the full adrenaline required for a earthshaker chain, which you can keep cycling earth shaker/whirlwind/crude constantly until either a> everything is dead or b> FGJ runs out.

Requires Stonefists or an earthbind around to work tho ofc. And Ascan means you DONT get blinded ect and miss ^

Been a Primary Mes for....erm?.. 5+ years, ill stand by earthshaker been better for Kd locking groups for spanking or general agro control..and applying damage (via carrying buffs and physical offence in general) but hey, either way! good day sir! and lol, yeah.. i meant earthshaker xD

FoxBat · May 27, 2011, 03:13 AM // 03:13

This may depend alot on the kind of team I'm running. I've dropped illusion entirely in favor of keystones partly for this reason; their adjacent triggers hit everything, clumsiness/inept only hit attacking things. So if your attacking things are with your not attacking things the end result is nicer with one build than the other.

Balling really varies on area too, it's not that great vs. balanced warden mobs for example, but practically everything in proph/EoTN patrols in a tight pack, which will stay tight if your sins keep the melee in place. You should see the same effect on the warrior plants at least. Important thing is to make the sin have a second or so "alone", you yourself need to stay outside aggro, and don't call the target for your heroes to chase after it till after the sin is summoned. Often melee that first start for your party will even turn around and go after the closer sin.