Curse

Faer · Mar 13, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by thor hammerbane

Yea this is a real annoyance...ele's are for nuking, and they can't even do that effectively anymore. Not only did a-net stop farming, but they rendered a class practically useless.

See, it's people like that and thier lack of ingenuity and/or imagination that make me hate reading these kinds of threads. Which as far as I can tell, make up quite a bit of Guru's thread count... If you are going to say something like that, back it up with something.

My Statement:
You are wrong

My Back-up statements:
1- Ele's are not just for nuking. I should know, it's my profession of choice. Sure, I do a lot of nuking, but that's not all I do. What do you think Air, Earth, and Water are for? Wards, Snares, annoyances, and quite a few more useful tricks... They are all part of the Elementalist skillset. You have a Monk/Elementalist at your disposal, you should know that already. Obviously, you don't pay any attention to your secondary beyond a couple of skills.

2- Ele's can still nuke effectively. Meteor Shower and Firestorm aren't the only nukes in the game, and not all nukes make mobs scatter. Period. I'm getting quite sick of that statement...

3- ArenaNet did not stop farming. They just "nerfed" one or two tiny areas of the huge friggin map. I'm saying this to everyone who keeps whining about the Scarabs and whatnot. Get off your tails and find someplace else to friggin farm! It's not all about the Griffins in Prophet's Path you know. I make decent cash in a few hours of farming (with my Elementalist I might add), and I never even touch the Desert. Honestly, the only people who need to complain about the recent updates are the botters who know have to work on new programming. Otherwise, all you need to do is adjust your skills and go kill something else for once. Has anyone stopped to think that if everyone just shut up about "there is this perfect build for farming X spot, so you should all try it" then all this frustration over an update could have been avoided? Jeeze people, seriously, nobody has any imagination anymore! All they/you/whatever do is log onto Guru, look for a build and area to use it, set up and go. How many people actually think for themselves anymore?! Not trying to stop the sharing of builds/farming locations. Just saying that people need to try working things out on thier own more often instead of relying on others to do it for them.

4- Where else can you get a Monk with the benefits of Energy Storage? Or hell, any class that relies on casting to get the job done. Elementalists are in no way useless. As stated above, I bring in the money with my Elementalist several times a day with no real effort whatsoever. Again tying in with my previous statements, think about it for a few minutes and you might just come up with the next "uber-build" or something.

I don't even know if a mod is going to slap me for this post. Frankly I don't care. It needed to be said... I love browsing through Guru and reading the funnier topics, and learning about the latest techniques. I even learn from the Technicians Corner. But all this whining, crying, and complaining is seriously ticking me off. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either...

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Elementalists flippin' ROCK (as do all other classes). Period, end of story. If you can't understand that, then maybe you need to play one more often and get a feel for it.

Rahl · Mar 13, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

I made me an Ele just this week.

She owns. No other way to put it

I use the Infinergy Ele build, and I never ever go below 65 energy, and that's just because the spell cost 25 energy to cast, and I get 70% of the energy back, and the build has no exhaustion.

(Here the build, 16 Fire 15 Energy Storage, staff w/ +5 and +20%)

Ira Blinks · Mar 13, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahl

I made me an Ele just this week.

She owns. No other way to put it

I use the Infinergy Ele build, and I never ever go below 65 energy, and that's just because the spell cost 25 energy to cast, and I get 70% of the energy back, and the build has no exhaustion.

(Here the build, 16 Fire 15 Energy Storage, staff w/ +5 and +20%)

flare? immolate? bonds? jeesh... you are the reason people keep asking for extra "nukers" for FoW pugs and I still end up doin their job...

Bob of Maple Ave · Mar 13, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

I still don't see any ele builds posted that do more AoE damage than an SS necro build over time.

As far as imagination in farming goes, name an area where I can make more money (or even comparable money) than FoW, UW, the Tombs, or SF. Without requiring a lucky rare skin drop.

I encourage anyone to name a build that does a better job than any class at doing something in particular. Sure, elementalists are fun (my henchies love me). But they are in no way the best at anything. They can, at most, deal out the most damage at short range quickly, but also happen to have the worst armor. They can also deal out the most damage to one opponent at a time...but it's almost a waste when you consider that an AoE will do many times the damage over several opponents at the same energy cost.

Someone mentioned that Spiteful Spirit is Conditional damage. All elementalist AoE damage is conditional as well. The condition that's required is that you stand in it. That is no longer happening. What's easier? To remove a hex, or to move?

To the people that have said that Spiteful Spirit is an Elite Skill, and that it should have special effects over normal Ele skills, I say fine. But why don't Ele's have a comparable skill? Why not have a fire hex that causes all nearby opponents to catch on fire whenever a certain opponent attacks? Pretty simple, no? Why not make the glyph of elemental power last as long as Awaken the Blood and affect, say, earth and water skills? That's a normal spell, isn't it?

I have all of the relevant green staves, so equipment isn't an issue (I got a lucky drop out of a chest and made some turnaround investments, as well as picked up more than my share of shards).

Perhaps my wording was a little off when I said that they were "useless". To me, they're useless because they're the second best option when you're looking for a tanker, a damage dealer, a healer, a protector, or an interrupter. If there's a lot of people around (which there usually are in most of the spots I've mentioned above), then why take second best and reduce efficiency?

To Trankle: you've made some really strong points. It's true that Spiteful Spirit isn't gotten until late in the game. It was probably around that time that I began to see the backs of people's shoulders. And my argument does focus on the later parts of the game...but that's where the majority of the money is to be made.

I don't consider, nor have I felt since then, that an Elementalist is one of the "core three" classes, in any way shape or form. I feel like the odd option for the group of people spamming "NEED 6 MOR WARRS 4 FISSUR OF WO".

There's no reason why the 5 man SF farming wouldn't work as efficiently in FoW as it does in SF. I intend to spam it all over the place once I get my SS necro in working order, so that everyone drops their eles and we can have a game made up entirely of Wars, Monks, and Necromancers, and Mesmers (with the occasional lone ranger). Maybe then ANet will change things so I can dust off my favorite character.

Honestly, I don't wish a nerfing on SS damage at all. I feel bad for necromancers, knowing that they'd suffered as I do now when people didn't know what they were good for. There's a number of solutions that I could come up with:

-make the mobs in the mentioned areas weak to <some> kind of element (even holy). I've read a ton of complaints that air, earth, and water are barely a factor in this game...this could change that, and diversify the skillset of elementalists. If you changed it to, for instance, water, it could even include rangers with their "winter" skill. I was stoked when I saw how much damage I could do in Abaddon's Mouth when I used fire skills with that running. I thought that was the way things were supposed to be...

-make the mobs fan out from SS like they do from other AoE spells. The fact that it's an elite spell shouldn't make it exempt from that common-sense kind of AI. The fact that it ignores armor, costs 10 less to cast, takes 2 seconds less to cast, recharges 50 seconds faster, doesn't cause enemies to fan out, sticks to an opponent, AND lasts more than 2 1/2 times as long as MS makes it elite enough.

-give elementalists an elite hex that is comparable to Spiteful Spirit, so we can at least serve as a stand-in.

-get rid of glyph of elemental power and turn it into an enchantment similar to Awaken the Blood, or add another enchantment that is similar.

-give elementalists some form of elite AoE spell that compares (in damage) to Spiteful Spirit

I can come up with more if needed, but these are relatively simple adjustments that could be made.

I'm going to post a link to this thread on ANet's official website, so they can see where people are at.

Once again, thank you for all of your opinions and input.

PS:
As far as imagination goes, don't go there. I've been clinically diagnosed as having ADD associated with giftedness, and I've plum run out of Concerta.

The Lich Ranger · Mar 13, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Eles usually farm the last missions of the game because nukers, are used much there. i dunno if i would but its where eles are most needed. :/

Keeper of Birds · Mar 13, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

I remember the days when I started my necro- noone wanted me in their group. It was all about the magical warrior-monk-nuker trio. Now, I can do alot, which is nice.

But I can also do alot with my ele, although she is not completely through yet. And either way, I still have fun, which is what is important to me.

A couple of other thoughts-
- it is possible to find other kinds of groups to farm in SF, provided you have a plan and can explain to the people you recruit what you want to do, and why you want to do it. I go to SF both as an SS necro and MM, and sometimes with my monk, and every so often I end up in one of these oddball groups through an invite. It may take more time, and we flame out sometimes, but it is more fun than just plowing through the same way I have dozens of times. In the end, who cares whether one approach gets a few more points of damage in PvE?

- The November update never really struck me as an AoE nerf. In most cases, the spells did not change, just the enemies response to them. Since it meant that the enemies acted slightly less stupid than they were, I felt it was a good thing. AoE nuking can still work, and for high damage, but you need to figure out how to keep the enemies in there instead of counting on them to ignore it. The corresponding change to SS would not be to change the spell, but to program the AI so it would stop attacking when under its influence.

- I suspect the wheel will continue to turn. Many of the skills buffed in the recent update were ele skills, particularly fire skills. And I hope the mesmer's chance to be a star will come soon too.

Final thought- don't confuse having fun with serious farming. The serious farmers are there to get as much money as they can as quickly as they can. They have builds that are specifically set up to do that, and you are asking alot of them to change their setup to accommodate your preferences. But there are people who just want to have fun, and those folks will usually be happy to be flexible on the group build. If all you want is optimal damage, then you are probably right about the merits of SS over Nuking in SF. But there are lots of ways to have fun in this game.

Corrupted Byte · Mar 13, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

A guild member has already did a test compairson with the ele and ss necro there is also some ranger stuff in there also
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=122972

Ira Blinks · Mar 13, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

duh... AoE nerf got nothing to do with eles being useless, stop bringin up this pathetic statement. _Real_ problems with eles:

1) in later part of the game everything that is not caster will take less than half damage from ele spells regardless of it being water/fire/air/earth (and damn rangers will laught at you)

2) ele spells take stupid amount of time to cast and require tons of energy and cause exhaustion totaly negating ele energy pool "advantage"

3) ele enchants became very hard to maintain (tyvm to all you 55 monks out there) after few npc mesmer buffs.

4) for the same reason as (3) ele _require_ book/gear tank to aggro everything or be shutdown and interrupted all over the place due to stupid casting times of most of their spells.

5) monks/warriors make much better tanks/protectors due to whole anti-caster alignment of the game, thus ele are not needed here either.

XX Deathwish Warrior XX · Mar 13, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

And guess what - barrage and traps are AoE to and mobs dont run from them either.

Actually, traps are aoe dmg......... i used to solo uw until the dust trap nerf

And people.... if ur so mad at eles, just make a new char ive made at least 2 of each character and deleted them... its not hard to just get a freaking run thru the game.... its like a 1 day thing and you can get skills, droks armor, and be able to join groups for sf :P

dreamhunk · Mar 13, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by XX Deathwish Warrior XX

Actually, traps are aoe dmg......... i used to solo uw until the dust trap nerf

And people.... if ur so mad at eles, just make a new char ive made at least 2 of each character and deleted them... its not hard to just get a freaking run thru the game.... its like a 1 day thing and you can get skills, droks armor, and be able to join groups for sf :P

like I said before anet should just delete the elemental class. If you can get enough people to delete their elementals then there will be no elementals in the game. yup lets get rid of it. Thank you for making my point more clear!

I wonder how long till the elemental class dies.

Ira Blinks · Mar 13, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by XX Deathwish Warrior XX

Actually, traps are aoe dmg......... i used to solo uw until the dust trap nerf

ok ok, i already admited that i was wrong about traps... still they are very close to being broken, since mobs that got into traps will be knocked down and crippled.

Quote:

And people.... if ur so mad at eles, just make a new char ive made at least 2 of each character and deleted them... its not hard to just get a freaking run thru the game.... its like a 1 day thing and you can get skills, droks armor, and be able to join groups for sf :P

I'm sorry, but that is just dumb. Its like me saying that if you don't like people discussing ele issues then go and find yourself another forum... We are not mad at eles, we mad at game imbalance and we want it to be fixed. I like my ele, i like using it, but i can't because nobody wants me into their group, so the almost 3 mil xp char now turned into green mule.

Buddha · Mar 13, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

As a long time ele I do feel we are a very backburner class. It was my belief, as it is in other MMO's, that ele's are the primary damage dealers. In return they have crap armor, health, and defenses. I really liked this idea, but with the updates they just don't accomplish this. I'm not just complaining about nuking, but Air spiking as well is often dwarfed by warriors or rangers which just shouldn't be. So if ele's can't even deal damage than it is easy to see why groups in PvE won't take them. Its this fact that upsets me most. I'm more than willing to sacrifice even more in terms of armor and defenses if Anet would just give ele's back their proper place as primary damage dealers.

Exoudeous · Mar 13, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Heres a crazy Idea: Its a game, have fun. Yea I know that sounds nuts, but seriously, This is why I dont go with pug groups, You get yourself a good guild, and thats all you need.

Sure eles may not be the most efficent farmers, or any of that jazz. But if you got a good guild, you can go do the high level areas and use any build you like. Heck recently Ive been using a Nuker/Beastmaster build. Its not UBER 1337, but I have fun with the game. You dont get that from those 5 man oro groups where you are expected to be a robot. And not only that, but I have all the greens and rares I could ever want, and I Just got enough for FoW armor.

And all I did was play the way I wanted to

Sure there are times where you should use more accepted builds for things, but if you ONLY play that way, then the game can get quite boring

oljomo · Mar 13, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Hi

Eles are the best tanks in teh game, period.

I dont care how many hits a warrior can take, a decent earth tnak can beat them, even in areas with enchantment strippers.

In an area with enchantment strippers, just take obsidian flesh along with serpents quickness and about 9 wilderness (only need to make duration 23-24 secs) tehn you can keep that up constantly.

Combine that with the other armour buffs, (kinetic and earth) and you suddenly have someone with 220 armour, who cant lose it (if you play well), + can have monk enchantments cast on tehm with no risk of them being shattered.

Try beating that with any other class of character :O

oljomo

Dagomir Zarusta · Mar 13, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

The whole point of farming in this game, is like previously said, to maximize profits. An ele tank is useless. Causes no damage, and is merely another mouth to feed so to speak, when it comes to drops. A good pair of monks can keep the stay puft marshmellow man alive if they want. Armor is not the issue. I just cant find room for eles in my farming groups

wiz12268 · Mar 13, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

So now it has gone from SS necro versus Ele, to now being hardcore farmers versus "lets have fun" players.

Sure eles are fun, they are a basic class everyone wants to play IMO. Simply bacause you like seeing all those pretty yellow numbers flying over the mob of monsters you are nuking. That isn't possible anymore.

So you have to get creative, but every magic the ele possess has downfalls. There simply are not enough damage causing eleite skills, as I mentioned before. Basically the elite people carry the most on an ele is Elemental Attune. But what good does it do if you have 40-50 energy left and are waiting for all your skills to recharge?

The water build I currently run(after they nerfed out the solo builds) is 16 water 15 ES.

Mist Form(E)
Blurred Vision
Deep Freeze
Frozen Burst/Ice Spikes (depends)
Aura Restoration
Ice Spear
Maelstrom
Rez sig/spell depending on secondary

This build will do a lot of damage but not super amounts like a necro, but in FOW it slows monsters down more than enough to help people escape or get the upper hand on a double aggro. Assuming of course you don't get interupted.

Also for the person that was talking about tanking. Build a ranger/Ele, cast Greater Conflagration (elite) wear Drakes, and you already have 115 armor right there. And if you want to go earth Magic you have a few armor spells that gain armor very quickly, or you can use Mist Form(water magic and you take ZERO damage), and then Throw dirt or Dryders or whirling when it wear off, and that can give you a long time of getting missed and not taking damage at all, in conjuction with monk buffs. Ranger builds with the right armor and spirits are the best tanks bar none in the game. Also if I am not mistaken their stances will also correlate to shields, so even with no attribute pioints in a stance they gain the damage reduction as well as half the value of the shield. So they can have a base of 123 armor(with no buffs) with a -2 damage reduction. FOW teams really don't need anything but a pro/heal monk and all barragers. Mix and match a few secondary class skills and they can own that place, just like trappers own sections of UW.

So once again ele skills are actually better used by another class. Which was my whole point, maybe not what the point of the OP was actually. But I simply read the title and went with it.

Ira Blinks · Mar 13, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

So once again ele skills are actually better used by another class. Which was my whole point, maybe not what the point of the OP was actually. But I simply read the title and went with it.

You didnt really need to write the rest... this pretty much sums it up.

wiz12268 · Mar 13, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Someone wanted abuld that did a lot of damage, that is theone that I have found ATM does the most, without losing half your bar to exhaustion or using Echo.

oljomo · Mar 13, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

Also for the person that was talking about tanking. Build a ranger/Ele, cast Greater Conflagration (elite) wear Drakes, and you already have 115 armor right there. And if you want to go earth Magic you have a few armor spells that gain armor very quickly, or you can use Mist Form(water magic and you take ZERO damage), and then Throw dirt or Dryders or whirling when it wear off, and that can give you a long time of getting missed and not taking damage at all, in conjuction with monk buffs. Ranger builds with the right armor and spirits are the best tanks bar none in the game. Also if I am not mistaken their stances will also correlate to shields, so even with no attribute pioints in a stance they gain the damage reduction as well as half the value of the shield. So they can have a base of 123 armor(with no buffs) with a -2 damage reduction.

Hi

at 226 armour, your build is taking more than 4 times as much damaage per hit as my build, if you combine that with whirling, you still arent as good (whirlign still lets people hit 25% of the time), the difference being that a minus 2 while enchanted shield held by e effectively equals a minus 8 shield by you, big difference there, and if i got a -2 -2 shield d be stopping an extra 8 dama per hit on your build when serpents quickness is active.

And since when did spells such as aftershock or crystal wave, (which fit really well into this buidl) do no damage? Especially considering half the time the recharge will be reduced due to serpents quickness.

And then we get the fact that while spellcasters can cast horrid things like conjure hantasm/other armour ignoring damage, mine cannot ever be targetted by spells, meaning half the damge supposed to be dealt to the tank can just be ignored :O

Look at it again please and tell me how your build beats mine

(oh and btw have you ever tryed to keep one of those skills up agains tmultiple enemies for prolonged periods of time, sure theyre good to get you out of trouble, but you cant just stand there and take the damage)

oljomo

wiz12268 · Mar 13, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Someone wanted abuld that did a lot of damage, that is theone that I have found ATM does the most, without losing half your bar to exhaustion or using Echo.