Curse

QuixotesGhost · Mar 12, 2006, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

My ranger seldom runs dry on her energy pool of 28 because of her high Expertise. But she could not truly hold her own if she were attempting anything other than her skill set.

I understand that Glyphs + Oath Shot are popular for R/Eles want to do stuff with thier secondary if you wanted to try that out too.

Age · Mar 12, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Eles have there place in PvE as of lastnight playing the Tomps old HoH we had 3 Eles,2 Monks,1Warrior.1Ranger and a Necro and it worked out fine.It was good balance and the Eles did a great jop.

Tainek · Mar 13, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

R/E are a tough class. As far as expertise goes that doesn't effect spells. So I can see where a E/R would be better. Since 8 is the max in marx for most archers anyways(except for barrage cookie cutter build) being an E/R wouldn't effect that at all.

No, Just No!

any ranger using his bow for damage will have 12 in marksmanship

........sorry, i mean any ranger worth his salt

wiz12268 · Mar 13, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

No, Just No!

any ranger using his bow for damage will have 12 in marksmanship

........sorry, i mean any ranger worth his salt

Ya a ranger primary will. With a superior and a mask 12 is pretty easilly obtainable. That leaves you with 10 and 9 in another skills, generally WS and EXP respectively, and a full maxed out 12 with a secondary class focus. But at 8(with a superior and a mask) That leaves 28 extra points to throw somewhere else. So you could maybe you throw a point in each. Or if you want to even take a pet along you can get that up 8 (with a minor rune) so you can, with 2 superiors in, have stats of 12(secondary class), 8marx,8 BM,12/11, 9/10 depending on where you throw the superiors, and still have 400+ hit points. Again this is getting off the ele track here.

But it is basically proving a point. Ele primaries are reliant on other classes to now inflict their damage. Whether it be a R/E or an E/R conjuring with Barrage is the only real way around the AoE nerfing that has taken place. With conjure Lighting, FW, barrage, and a shocking 15 modded bow(preferably composite or short/moon), either enchanted, stance, ^50 or always, and just 9 in Marksmanship, you will be doing between 47-65 damage per shot(every 2 secs w/o TF) against heavilly armored monsters. I ran that build forever. That is why I added the little BM angle, tigers fury only increases the dmg output, by giving you an extra attack or two. Even with 16 fire and pre nerfed FS the damage output was similar. Now it isn't even close.

So the ELE is less ele and more ranger, an ironic twist (as I mentioned before) from when the game first came out. When every ranger wnated to be a nuker.

As I said Elementalists have their place. But they are surely not the massive damage dealers that they were promoted as in the Guide Book. Or even what they were when the game first came out.

Bob of Maple Ave · Mar 13, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

First off, I'd like to thank all of you for your input. I was surprised to have gotten such a large response so quickly.

As of today, I'm still working on a Necromancer. I didn't start an Elementalist because I'm fond of diaper-changing and playing a support role. I wanted to do damage, plain and simple.

To tell me that Elementalists are almost as good as any other class at doing what those classes do doesn't really speak loudly of balance or fairness. The plain fact is that there is nothing that Elementalists do best, except maybe spiking with Phoenix or double-casting with glyph of sacrifice and (insert spell here). In case nobody knew, glyph of sacrifice tacks on an additional 30 seconds to the recharge time of any spell that it's used on. How many teams do you know that are willing to wait around 90 seconds for a spell to reload (in the case of MS)? How many mobs?

The fact of the matter is that, unless I'm in a group of laid-back people (as some of you are, and I appreciate that), I'm still not getting into groups for SF farming. Those groups consist of 2 monks, 2 necros, and 1 warrior...and essentially have the lion's share of the green items that come from there. 72 out of 88 green items come from either Grenth's Footprint or Sorrows Forge.

As I've said, I can hench it, but only with very limited success and at a diluted ratio of 1/8 of the drops.

As far as AoE causing mobs to flee, I think it's a good idea because it makes sense. Your hand is burning, you remove it from the fire.

Someone also mentioned that I seemed intent on playing a pyromancer. In fact, that is not true...nor was it ever my intention from the beginning. I think fire in a caster is blase. But there really is no other option that compares in PvE. Water typically does 1/3 of the damage (you've usually run out of mana while the mobs slowly creep towards you), Air is definitely not the spiking force of destruction I'd hoped, and Earth, while cool, typically requires you to be close up to do any serious damage. While this isn't a problem considering the amount of defensive buffs that are available to that class...one mesmer can typically reduce you from 200+ armor to that wonderful 60 armor in a matter of seconds (doing 100 damage with each stripping of your enchantments).

I don't believe that an elementalist should be invulnerable, nor strike down foes in a single blow. I just think that Elementalists should have something that makes them irreplaceable in a team. I honestly don't mind that mesmers and rangers (and warriors, for that matter) tear me up with interrupts. It's fair, and part of the rock-paper-scissors kind of balance that this game is(supposedly) supposed to have.

Why is it that Necros both deal the most damage and are the only class that can effectively give energy? They're fulfilling 2 slots. Healers Heal, Tankers Tank, Rangers (well, are good at a variety of roles), Mesmers Interrupt. Elementalists are second best at everything, best at nothing.

I thought the suggestion about an aggro point system was relevant and enlightened...you can see it in use in a variety of other MMORPGs.

As far as being flexible, I have experimented with a variety of different skillsets...but Ele/(anything) is a hard sell. I can tell you that, personally, if I see an ele walking around with a bow, I think it's rather comical--again, trying to be second best.

I guess one of the questions that has risen up from this debate is this: are elementalists really nerfed, or are people just dumb in expecting them to be damage dealers and nothing else?

Consider that the vast majority of Elementalist debuffing spells either slow the opponent or reduce their odds of hitting? How exactly does that speed things up when you're using Spiteful Spirit? Useless.

Honestly, I have tend to believe that people make mistakes and have somewhat of a herding instinct. But I don't believe that to be true in this case. There are a lot of intelligent people playing this game (and a good amount of people who, well, help to "strike a balance"). In this case, I believe, the consumer is in fact right, and the consumer doesn't want an ele on their team.

I can also tell you that, if I were in the shoes of any of the members of said 5 man team, I wouldn't want an elementalist on my team either. I'm going there to make money, not have fun. I can have fun helping guildies out on quests and whatnot. At the moment, I'm just trying to make money so that I can fund a guild effectively and provide for future members. I want to get things done as quickly and smoothly as possible...and I certainly don't want to dilute my odds of getting a good drop with a redundant 6th wheel. Those types of favors are reserved for friends and guildmates.

Hah, honestly, it gets to the point that I feel as if anyone that accepts me on their team is taking me as a favor (whether they realize it or not). Why take me, when they can get an SS for damage? Is it because of my spiking ability? Of course--that must be it! There are tons of situations where you are simply trying to take down 1 powerful mob at a time in GW. Just wait for me to put on my helmet (I have a tendency to bump my head into walls)...can you help me blow into my tube so I can roll on forward?

Sorry for the sarcasm, it's the product of weeks of frustration.

All things aside, I played an elementalist because I wanted to play an elementalist. Plain and simple. I have always played the physically weak damage-dealing characters in MMORPGs. I enjoy that role. I can authoritatively say that I do not like playing the role of the physically weak nearly-useful character.

I haven't tried PvP yet, and am not currently interested.

I really, honestly hope that ANet is reading this thread, although I'm sure they're quite busy with the expansion. I like my character. I guess the only problem is that noone else does.

In the meantime, I guess I'll be working on my new Necro, and Monk. You may still find me on occasion, however--I'm thinking about starting a "walking" service from Old Ascalon to the Sardelac Sanitarium, as long as I can get some guildies to help out. The price will be 50 gold, 25 if I make it...

dreamhunk · Mar 13, 2006, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

why don't u make a necro or a monk and stop complaining?
i don't get u ppl that only have 1 char, maybe it's time u try something new.

Some people love their builds. If a nec can do more damage than a nuker, Why do you even have a fire class? I think anet should just delete the fire class! Why even have the fire class when a skill can do better damage than any and all of the high costing elementals fire skills?

I also think elementals get shafted in everything even armor and weapons, I guess someone must hate elementals at anet. I think they might as well delete the class.

Lowly Peasant · Mar 13, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

I have been having problems lately using my ele. Everything on the PvE side of the game has emense amount of elemental resistance later on, particularly the dwarves. The only recent addition that isn't impervious to elemental damage are the new scarabs and the Queen. This is the only new addition where an elementalist can realy do some damage, as long as you don't get interruped by every rockshot and nestbuilder and it's mom, cousin, and uncle.

lg5000 · Mar 13, 2006, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

why don't u make a necro or a monk and stop complaining?
i don't get u ppl that only have 1 char, maybe it's time u try something new.

Good one.. lets have the op make a monk and then complain about the treatment monks are generally complain about.. or a necro, and realise that unless they're running mm with veratas sacrifice (at any part of the game) or ss, they're not wanted?

dgb · Mar 13, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob of Maple Ave

I'm still not getting into groups for SF farming. Those groups consist of 2 monks, 2 necros, and 1 warrior...

Boo-hoo. Have a cry over it - there was a time when necros couldn't get into a group, and it was the elementalists who were taking the damage spot. Excuse me for not feeling a lot of sympathy now that it's been reversed.

Phoenix Ex · Mar 13, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Actually Necros COULD get into group if they go battery. Its not even a reverse, its just that now necros got the damage spot of the ele, the energy regen spot by being battery, and corpse control by being a minion master.

I don't mind necro now being the "have it all" character, its just that ele...suck without relying on secondary skills.

Fire - many many many overpriced skills with subpar effectiveness compare to warrior, necro, ranger, and possibly even monk.
Earth - Being a warder ain't THAT great in PvE considering aggro control is possible. Getting the AI on the tank is way more effective than 50% evade. The other spells all have mediocre damage for their cost.
Water - Why would you want to make the game slow?
Air - great as a spiker, but the problem is that the high energy spells are so reliant on attunments. Without it the ele fizzles out rapidly.

So what is ele useful for? Energy storage to spam secondary prof skills....

Hockster · Mar 13, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

It's amazing how many people think an ele is useless. Yeah, if they're stuck in the firestorm/searing heat build they are. But there are so many other ways to use an ele, besides warding, that are extremely effective.

To all the ele's whining about not being able to do damage anymore, learn a new build. Maybe try creating your own and not running a cookie cutter build that's so prevalent in the game today.

To all those that claim ele's are useless, try playing one instead of forum bandwagon jumping.

dreamhunk · Mar 13, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

It's amazing how many people think an ele is useless. Yeah, if they're stuck in the firestorm/searing heat build they are. But there are so many other ways to use an ele, besides warding, that are extremely effective.

To all the ele's whining about not being able to do damage anymore, learn a new build. Maybe try creating your own and not running a cookie cutter build that's so prevalent in the game today.

To all those that claim ele's are useless, try playing one instead of forum bandwagon jumping.

For one I like to play, the way I want to play. Not by someone telling me how to play!

What good is fire then you should delete itfrom the game! I thought fire class was damage dealing class! I think all the skills for it is useless.

Hockster · Mar 13, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

For one I like to play, the way I want to play. Not by someone telling me how to play!

What good is fire then you should delete itfrom the game! i thought fire class was damage dealing class!

No one is telling you how to play. If you want to use FS/SH then go ahead. Just don't expect your groups to last very long. There are much more powerful fire based spells available. But hey, it's your right to be a noob forever.

dreamhunk · Mar 13, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

No one is telling you how to play. If you want to use FS/SH then go ahead. Just don't expect your groups to last very long. There are much more powerful fire based spells available. But hey, it's your right to be a noob forever.

like what tell me? They all don't deal as much as ss. Must take for ever to cast. Must take alot of energy. I say, just delete the hole fire class make people alot happy. Almost all the elementals skills are damage aoe mainly in fire.

Even the armour for elementals suck,they only look good.

Hockster · Mar 13, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Where did I say it out damages SS? Go learn some reading comprehension before your next post.

Dual attunements negates most of any energy issues. Not to mention that having 80+ energy to start with.

Quote:

I say, just delete the hole fire class make people alot happy.

Spell check FTW

You say huh? Where have you said anything to make that statement even remotely true?

You appear to be so completely clueless it's not even worth the time to continue reading the drivel you pass off as posts.

dreamhunk · Mar 13, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

Where did I say it out damages SS? Go learn some reading comprehension before your next post.

Dual attunements negates most of any energy issues. Not to mention that having 80+ energy to start with.

Spell check FTW

You say huh? Where have you said anything to make that statement even remotely true?

You appear to be so completely clueless it's not even worth the time to continue reading the drivel you pass off as posts.

I think you should play elemetal before you talk. Instead of your neco or your tank! It is good thing to be a well round player as well rouned person, instead of taking cheap shots at peopleand making fun of them.

Phoenix Ex · Mar 13, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Ok wrong word...Ele is not USELESS, they are NOT USEFUL enough.

All useful builds for ele are either:

1. Beaten by builds of other classes
2. Uses almost all non-ele skills

If there are such useful builds for ele...someone post one

Francis Crawford · Mar 13, 2006, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raxxman

I think the imbalance is that foes should fan out from spiteful spirit but they don't. It's the only AoE attack in which this is the case.

Exactly.

Well, that plus the fact that the AIs cast/attack through SS, Backfire, Empathy, etc.

Seef II · Mar 13, 2006, 08:19 AM // 08:19

To the OP, if you're wondering about eles doing damage and how relatively bad they seem in PvE, it doesn't get better in PvP. For what it's worth, anyone in observer mode watching [Rift] for the past couple days has seen their Me/E fastcast air gank build.

When another class at lower attribute points can outdamage the original class, you have a problem.

I deleted my ele - only made him to get UAS. Suffice it to say I felt horribly inefficient compared to my warrior or necromancer, and healing was considerably lame after coming off my monk. (I played fire, then water - and neither were to my liking.)

Bob of Maple Ave · Mar 13, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Boo-hoo. Have a cry over it - there was a time when necros couldn't get into a group, and it was the elementalists who were taking the damage spot. Excuse me for not feeling a lot of sympathy now that it's been reversed.

This is just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stupid. Why did the necro ever need to take the damage slot anyway when he already had a job as a battery?

I wasn't here for the "balancing". I don't know what it was like before about a month ago. I didn't reap the rewards while necromancers shivered in the dark. The only thing I know about is what it's like now, and it sucks to be an elementalist.

As far as people telling me to try an alternate build, I encourage you to give me an example of one that will outdamage an SS necro (or maybe one that will allow me to be a better battery than a necro, for that matter) without having a 90 second recharge, cause exhaustion, require me to charge directly into the fray, or otherwise rely on my secondary profession more than my first. It's easy to say, hard to do.

Perhaps I should try charging in there with a hammer? Or go out and level a Moa to level 20 while slowing everything down for it to kill? Sometimes I feel as if the only way a person can get any credit is if they use the most obscure methods possible.

As I've said, I've tried numerous builds, to no avail.