Curse

Francis Crawford · Mar 18, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by d3kst3r

As I said, the effects of Energy Storage are only good for like the first few minutes of the round. After that you're pretty much on your own. And if you took an ele and matched him up against almost any other class in a 1 v 1 fight, the ele would almost always get his butt kicked unless he was fighting a monk.

Take an elementalist with double Attunements, Aura of Restoration, Blinding Flash, Lightning Javelin, and so on, and he'll give a lot of trouble to a warrior or ranger.

That said, if the warrior/ranger has condition removal via a monk secondary, nobody's killing anybody, as much (but not ALL) of the elementalist's energy goes into forcing the W/R to use ALL of his energy Mending his Ailment.

Now, I know that even when blinded the W or R will occasionally get lucky and disrupt Elemental Attunement or something, but the Elementalist should survive even so. Or we can stipulate that he goes /Me and runs Mantra of Resolve, which shouldn't trigger very often as not many attacks will get landed on him period, disrupting skills or otherwise.

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Mar 18, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

You are a liar. What you said was that an elementalist had various "spike options". This is wrong. They have two viable spike options, both of which I named.

I am not a liar, you are a fool. You compare two quotes which mean exactly the same thing and clain they are completely differnet. An elementalists utility in Tombs can very logically be defined by the number of builds able to succesfully incorporate the class - there is nothing at all wrong with viewing it this way. Silly troll, try to stop toking long enough to actually make an intelligent post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

What else defines an elementalist's ability to spike other than the skills he uses to do so? This argument is so mindbogglingly stupid I don't know what else to say.

Excellent, then by all means stfu. The question I was addressing is the elementalists' utility in PvP overall. This is best measured by the number of different builds that an elementalist is typicaly included in, regardless of wether the same exact set of skills was employed in each of those different builds or not.

The monk, which you brought up, is a perfect example. The same set of skills is typically used by most monk "cookie cutter" templates (active prot, woh, infuser, etc) and yet these archtypes are incorporated into ALMOST every build type in Tombs, making monks the class with the highest utility overall, despite a lack of variety in skill use. I'm curious, is it fun for you to lose this debate over and over and over again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Not that it would matter if elementalists could cast for free-elementalist spells simply don't do all that much damage.

LMAO. This is the quote that says it all: "eles are SO bad that is wouldn't matter if their spells cast for free". Cmon, I'm even gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here. You really arent that stupid normally right? Too many bong hits before you posted?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

If the devs were perfect, there wouldn't be any need to change the game at all. Seeing as they have changed the game, your half assed appeal to authority stands revealed as the nonsense it is.

I never said the devs were perfect, I was just saying the devs are much smarter than you. So am I. So are most people for that matter.

Symbol · Mar 19, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

I am not a liar, you are a fool. You compare two quotes which mean exactly the same thing and clain they are completely differnet.

You are a liar or a complete idiot, or quite possibly both. You did not include the word "build" in that sentence. Saying an elementalist has "various spike options" does not mean the same thing as "an elementalist can be included in various spike builds" and no bizarre convolution of the english language is going to make it so.

Quote:

Moreover, eles have many skill types which make them an asset in pvp (wards, blinding falsh, high dmg aoe, various spike options)

You explicitly referred to skills in your statement, and now you want us to believe you were talking about utility in team builds. Please.

Good grief, you are dense if you really think anyone is going to swallow that tripe

Quote:

An elementalists utility in Tombs can very logically be defined by the number of builds able to succesfully incorporate the class - there is nothing at all wrong with viewing it this way. Silly troll, try to stop toking long enough to actually make an intelligent post.

You weren't talking about utility, you were talking about spike options, and that was what I replied to. If you're going to lie it's best not to do so on a public forum where your words are displayed for everyone to see.

Quote:

The monk, which you brought up, is a perfect example. The same set of skills is typically used by most monk "cookie cutter" templates (active prot, woh, infuser, etc) and yet these archtypes are incorporated into ALMOST every build type in Tombs, making monks the class with the highest utility overall, despite a lack of variety in skill use.

Had you said "elementalists have great utility" and left it at that few would have disagreed. However that's not what you said, your inept and dishonest attempts to claim otherwise notwithstanding.

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I'm curious, is it fun for you to lose this debate over and over and over again?

It's impossible for me to lose the "debate", because there isn't one. This is a "debate" in the same way that a retarded howler monkey throwing feces is a "battle". You have not produced a single fact to support your position or even a coherent argument. Instead, much like said monkey, you keep on flinging crap and hope some of it sticks. Fortunately your aim is pretty bad.

Quote:

LMAO. This is the quote that says it all: "eles are SO bad that is wouldn't matter if their spells cast for free". Cmon, I'm even gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here. You really arent that stupid normally right? Too many bong hits before you posted?

Read the "nuking sucks" thread and enlighten yourself, if you're capable of it. Even assuming ele dps isn't constrained by energy it isn't anything special.

Quote:

I never said the devs were perfect, I was just saying the devs are much smarter than you. So am I. So are most people for that matter.

Given the abject incompetence you've shown in this thread, you're not really in a position to judge intelligence, or much of anything for that matter.

AeroLion · Mar 19, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Rhys ap Llysgwr, some friendly bit of advice: for some reason people that know better than you have been trying to educate you instead of flat out flaming and moving on. I highly suggest you stop arguing and actually read over your posts and the posts that follow so that you may become a better player overall. Because, at this point, you're acting extremely ignorant and beligerant.

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Mar 19, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Not that it would matter if elementalists could cast for free-elementalist spells simply don't do all that much damage.

I just had to start with that, it cracks me up every time I read it. Do you really stand behind this statement? Oh wait, I already know the answer to that rofl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

You are a liar or a complete idiot, or quite possibly both. You did not include the word "build" in that sentence. Saying an elementalist has "various spike options" does not mean the same thing as "an elementalist can be included in various spike builds" and no bizarre convolution of the english language is going to make it so.

So let me restate it here for the record: Eles have many skill types which make them an asset in pvp (wards, blinding falsh, high dmg aoe, various spike options). "An asset in pvp" - in other words, the utility of the class in pvp. WTF did you think this meant troll? Various spike options refers to the different types of builds the ele can be included in. I figured that the meaning of this statement would be obvious, but I should have worded it even more carefully for the lowest common denominator on the boards (yourself being the prime example).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

It's impossible for me to lose the "debate", because there isn't one. This is a "debate" in the same way that a retarded howler monkey throwing feces is a "battle".

I agree, all you have done is throw crap at me, in the form of half-baked insults, poorly constucted semantic arguments, and out-right lies. Is this how you vent to deal with your otherwise pathetic life? Do yourself a favor, go pay someone to take your virginity.

Jenosavel · Mar 19, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Not that it would matter if elementalists could cast for free-elementalist spells simply don't do all that much damage.

I just had to start with that, it cracks me up every time I read it. Do you really stand behind this statement? Oh wait, I already know the answer to that rofl.

I take it you have not read, and have no interest in reading Why Nuking Sucks. If you ever feel like enlightening yourself, you should give it a glance. The numbers quite clearly show that while in spiking elementalists and warriors are roughly equivalent, apart from spiking, elementalist damage sucks plain and simple.

Quote:

So let me restate it here for the record: Eles have many skill types which make them an asset in pvp (wards, blinding falsh, high dmg aoe, various spike options). "An asset in pvp" - in other words, the utility of the class in pvp. WTF did you think this meant troll? Various spike options refers to the different types of builds the ele can be included in. I figured that the meaning of this statement would be obvious, but I should have worded it even more carefully for the lowest common denominator on the boards (yourself being the prime example).

See, now this is quite the misunderstanding. In nearly every thread I've ever read on this board, when people say "various spike options" they mean specifically what damage dealing skills that particular class has at their disposal to contribute to a spike. While what non-damage dealing stuff they could do to contribute is important to the overall battle, it's not contributing to the spike itself and is thus not included in "spike options."

Also, no one has ever argued as to whether ele's support is an asset in PvP. Wards, Blinding Flash, Windbourne Speed, etc. are great and you rarely find a good PvP team without those kinds of things. However, the numbers are very, very clear. Eles do not have high damage output via AoE or otherwise, and it seems to be this point that you're unwilling to concede.

I'm really curious as to why you're unwilling to concede that point. If you haven't read Why Nuking Sucks, then you'd really do yourself a favor by familiarizing yourself with your opponents' arguments before trying to discredit them. If you have read Why Nuking Sucks then I'm curious to see the math you're using to support your arguments that elementalist AoE damage is high output.

LightningHell · Mar 19, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by d3kst3r

As I said, the effects of Energy Storage are only good for like the first few minutes of the round. After that you're pretty much on your own. And if you took an ele and matched him up against almost any other class in a 1 v 1 fight, the ele would almost always get his butt kicked unless he was fighting a monk.

I have to agree.

d3kst3r · Mar 19, 2006, 08:37 AM // 08:37

The main problem with eles is that Energy Storage is over-rated and their self heals totally suck.

Lets look at the self heals of other classes:
Monks: don't get me started
Warriors: Healing Sig, nice spammable skill that costs no energy and heals for 100+ each time
Mesmer: Ether Feast is same as Heal Sig, except slower recharge, no -40 armor penalty, costs a bit of mana however heals for more. It's the mesmer's version of heal sig.
Necros: Lots of life transfer skills, I could spend half an hour going through all of em but just look at Blood Magic and you'll save me some time.
Rangers: Troll Ungent... Sort of like healing breeze but really cheap and highly spammable. But hey, with all their stances and evasion skills and disrupts, the hard part is hitting a ranger in the first place.

And that brings us to elementalists.... mmm... Aura of Restoration... great, if your skill costs 10 energy you get at the most 35 HP... And if you use Glyphs etc. to decrease energy costs then this skill becomes even less effective. It ain't fun when you're out of energy, your suffering from exhaustion, you're getting pounded for like 80 dmg per hit and all you can do is spam Flare to get a measly 15 HP back...

LightningHell · Mar 19, 2006, 08:47 AM // 08:47

But the problem is, people aren't smart enough to do the math...they just see the really high numbers (300) and forget the %.

Savio · Mar 19, 2006, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by d3kst3r

The main problem with eles is that Energy Storage is over-rated and their self heals totally suck.

No, the main problem is they aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guildwars.com

With magic derived from the very foundations of nature itself, Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession.

You have them healing, blinding, doing all sorts of utility stuff, when they should, by definition of their class, be blasting the hell out of the enemy. I don't even see where self-heals come into analysis of why any class sucks or rocks; I'm fairly sure Warriors aren't popular because of their great Heal Sig capabilities (though Heal Sig is quite a nice skill), or Mesmers because they can use Ether Feast.

d3kst3r · Mar 19, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Ok so lets say you're a spiker Ele and you're focused on doing lots of damage very quickly so that all your skills are organised for spiking. You go out, blast as many skills as possible trying to shoot your enemy to death. After 8 powerful spikes (and 80 energy used) all of a sudden you find you have no energy left and are badly exhausted. With no self heals and no energy left, and also your enemy survived all your spikes simply but spamming healing sig on himself, what do you do now?

Also each class has their own way of self healing which is the most basic foundation of self defense. And out of all of them, the Elementalist has by far the worst.

LightningHell · Mar 19, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

d3kst3r has a point. But the main problem of Elementalists isn't this problem.

XxForgexX · Mar 19, 2006, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by d3kst3r

With no self heals and no energy left, and also your enemy survived all your spikes simply but spamming healing sig on himself, what do you do now?

slap yourself in the face for either

a. having a pathetically weak spike
b. having a pathetically slow spike
c. having no energy management
d. having no knockdowns
e. playing in random arenas
f. losing in random arenas
g. being a noob
h. all of the above

d3kst3r · Mar 19, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxForgexX

slap yourself in the face for either

a. having a pathetically weak spike
b. having a pathetically slow spike
c. having no energy management
d. having no knockdowns
e. playing in random arenas
f. losing in random arenas
g. being a noob
h. all of the above

The example I used above was made using Savio's suggestions of how an elementalist build should be made. If you think I made that build for actual gameplay then you are either blind to previous posts or just want to flame. Playing as a warrior myself, I've never been killed by a single ele spike simply by spamming Healing Signet.

LightningHell · Mar 19, 2006, 09:49 AM // 09:49

d3kst3r, that is the point Savio is trying to make. They're supposed to be able to deal the most damage, but they can't even kill a single character.

Symbol · Mar 19, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

I just had to start with that, it cracks me up every time I read it. Do you really stand behind this statement? Oh wait, I already know the answer to that rofl.

Yes.

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So let me restate it here for the record: Eles have many skill types which make them an asset in pvp (wards, blinding falsh, high dmg aoe, various spike options). "An asset in pvp" - in other words, the utility of the class in pvp. WTF did you think this meant troll?

Exactly where did I deny elementalists are "assets in pvp"? That's right, I didn't! Perhaps after you're done frothing you could go back and actually see what parts I quoted.

Quote:

Various spike options refers to the different types of builds the ele can be included in. I figured that the meaning of this statement would be obvious, but I should have worded it even more carefully for the lowest common denominator on the boards (yourself being the prime example).

No one in the entire universe would interpret that sentence that way, except for you. You should worry less about "lowest common denominator" and more about "making an ounce of sense". Here's a tip for future reference since you seem to be entirely bereft of common sense. People can't read your mind over the internet. Instead of throwing a hissy fit when they don't understand you maybe you should learn to write what you mean, hmm?

Quote:

I agree, all you have done is throw crap at me, in the form of half-baked insults, poorly constucted semantic arguments, and out-right lies. Is this how you vent to deal with your otherwise pathetic life? Do yourself a favor, go pay someone to take your virginity.

Given that the only liar here is you, and the "poorly constructed semantic arguments" arise directly from your appalling inability to read and write clearly or even correctly, I don't see what you're babbling about except to make yourself look like a hypocrite as well as an intellectually dishonest moron.

Oh yeah, your insults suck. What's next, a "yo mamma" joke? For someone who has repeatedly accused me of being adolescent you've never strayed far from the juvenile. Here, let me respond in kind.

Dumbass.

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Mar 19, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

I take it you have not read, and have no interest in reading Why Nuking Sucks. If you ever feel like enlightening yourself, you should give it a glance. The numbers quite clearly show that while in spiking elementalists and warriors are roughly equivalent, apart from spiking, elementalist damage sucks plain and simple.

First of all, thank you for your post - it's refreshing to have some one disagree without flaming. My guildies and I have tested ele vs war on the practice targets ourselves. It was pathetic: a basic sword warrior, even without the most efficient skill set, could out damage the ele.

Yet this doesn't disqalify the fire ele from pvp. Much of the fire aoe got buffed (yet again) in the latest update. And in tombs, ppl bunch up alot - it just happens even to good teams. Wards, altars, and terrain all tend to cluster people and make fire aoe more effective than you might think. I've seen fire eles creeping their way into a lot of balanced teams now. In fact a team with a fire ele held halls 3 straight just tonight (please no one regail me with how that means nothing, I'm just saying that they can be a part of effective teams).

I agree that eles should do more damage, that was supposed to be the point of the class after all. However, my original statement said they had "high damge aoe", and they do. What else has higher damage aoe, other than an e-bomb saccer? The statements "eles have high damage aoe" and "warriors do more dps than eles" are not mutually exclusive.

Warrior damage is almost always expected, and almost always prepared for. And yes, as the op of "nuking sucks" pointed out it hurts the team to have to make that investment - and is a tribute to the warriors effectiveness.

However, the investment is nevertheless made, and it pays off. The same cannot be said for fire ele aoe, as the best protection most teams have is prot spirit. I've been on both sides of fire ele damage recently, and was more impressed than I ever expected.

Nothing I read in that article, nor anything I have experienced, would lead me to believe that eles wouldn't be broken if their spells cast for free. It is a gross exaggeration to say that eles are so bad their spells shouldn't cost anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

See, now this is quite the misunderstanding. In nearly every thread I've ever read on this board, when people say "various spike options" they mean specifically what damage dealing skills that particular class has at their disposal to contribute to a spike. While what non-damage dealing stuff they could do to contribute is important to the overall battle, it's not contributing to the spike itself and is thus not included in "spike options."

It certainly is a misunderstanding. When I stated "various spike options" I meant the different types of spike builds an ele could be included in. I expected flack for mentioning aoe, but not from this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

II'm really curious as to why you're unwilling to concede that point. If you haven't read Why Nuking Sucks, then you'd really do yourself a favor by familiarizing yourself with your opponents' arguments before trying to discredit them. If you have read Why Nuking Sucks then I'm curious to see the math you're using to support your arguments that elementalist AoE damage is high output.

Well I really havent been dicussing ele aoe much at all, I've been bogged down in a pointless argument about what I meant by "various spike options".

I couldn't and wouldn't try to use damage numbers over time to try and support why I think fire nuking can be good. All I know is that it seems to be pretty viable based on what I've seen in Tombs. One wonders why so many teams are using fire eles now. Maybe because kiting, melee/foe wards, cripple, and blind do nothing to mitigate fire ele dmg.

Symbol · Mar 19, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

I agree that eles should do more damage, that was supposed to be the point of the class after all. However, my original statement said they had "high damge aoe", and they do. What else has higher damage aoe, other than an e-bomb saccer? The statements "eles have high damage aoe" and "warriors do more dps than eles" are not mutually exclusive.

Elementalists have lots of AoE. But none of it is particularly high "damage" in dps terms, except for the PbAoEs which have their own problems. Simply having the lion's share of AoE skills in this game doesn't really mean anything if that AoE isn't very good.

Quote:

Nothing I read in that article, nor anything I have experienced, would lead me to believe that eles wouldn't be broken if their spells cast for free. It is a gross exaggeration to say that eles are so bad their spells shouldn't cost anything.

How would they be broken? It's already been shown that they underperform warriors damagewise even when completely free of energy constraints. So what would change if they could hypothetically cast (elementalist spells of course) for free? They certainly wouldn't be offensively overpowered. They wouldn't be defensively overpowered since their utility is mostly bounded by recharge time on their skills rather than energy.

So in what scenario would an elementalist be overpowered?

Akathrielah · Mar 19, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Yet this doesn't disqalify the fire ele from pvp. Much of the fire aoe got buffed (yet again) in the latest update. And in tombs, ppl bunch up alot - it just happens even to good teams. Wards, altars, and terrain all tend to cluster people and make fire aoe more effective than you might think. I've seen fire eles creeping their way into a lot of balanced teams now. In fact a team with a fire ele held halls 3 straight just tonight (please no one regail me with how that means nothing, I'm just saying that they can be a part of effective teams).

But the problem is that Fire AoE spells are only strong because of poor map design, rather than by virtue of being decent skills. You said it yourself, Wards, altars and terrain cause people to bunch of unecessarily, which allows Fire AoE to shine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

I agree that eles should do more damage, that was supposed to be the point of the class after all. However, my original statement said they had "high damge aoe", and they do. What else has higher damage aoe, other than an e-bomb saccer? The statements "eles have high damage aoe" and "warriors do more dps than eles" are not mutually exclusive.

If you want to talk about High Damage AoE, it sounds odd, but you can get a lot more pressure from a E-Surge Mesmer than a fire elementalist in many cases.

If you think about it, aside from Rodgort's "Yay I do 8 more damage now!" Invocation, you have Fireball which is solid damage but a smallish AoE, Meteor which is solid damage and knockdown but with a prohibitive cast time and recharge, and Incendiary "This target is going to get fireballed in 3 seconds" Bonds, which more or less leaves E-Surge of all things the best option in the game for large radius high damage aoe. Couple this with the fact that you are doing e-denial at the same time, AND you usually come packing Signet of Weariness and maybe a trick or two to allow you to fire it off more than once. You end up not dealing more damage per se, but you do end up pressuring the team a lot more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

I couldn't and wouldn't try to use damage numbers over time to try and support why I think fire nuking can be good. All I know is that it seems to be pretty viable based on what I've seen in Tombs. One wonders why so many teams are using fire eles now. Maybe because kiting, melee/foe wards, cripple, and blind do nothing to mitigate fire ele dmg.

You said it so yourself, people pack together in tombs.

Its either because the map is shoddily designed and ends up being a monkey mess of a brawl or because people are idiots and bunch up unnecessarily. Once again this doesn't mean that the skills are good, it just means it exploits poor map desigin and idiocy.

d3kst3r · Mar 20, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

The thing with ele's having low dmg is this:

Their spells all do a lot of damage except the biggest problem is their damage vs. time. Out of all the classes eles have the worst dmg vs. time ratio and are easily outhealed.