Curse

LightningHell · Mar 17, 2006, 09:50 AM // 09:50

I still have trouble comprehending the use of Obsidian Flesh in any PvP area with an Elementalist. A Monk, all right. An Elementalist, no thank you.

Armageddon · Mar 17, 2006, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Its an Ele skill not a Monk skill ...

Ensign · Mar 17, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Try learning how to read

Step 1: Log into game.
Step 2: Look at Rodgort's Invocation. Notice the "nearby" in the skill description.
Step 3: Roll up an elementalist and put Rodgort's Invocation on his bar.
Step 4: Go into the Isle of the Nameless and shoot a practice dummy with Rodgort's Invocation. Observe the "nearby" radius.
Step 5: Shut the hell up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

I have a sneaking suspicion I'm in a pointless argument with somone not old enough to vote yet.

Indeed.

Peace,
-CxE

LightningHell · Mar 17, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armageddon

Its an Ele skill not a Monk skill ...

I have a feeling that people don't know what I'm talking about...

I do know Obsidian Flesh is an Elementalist elite. However, I do not see a point in using it without being a Monk. Or, in other words, it's a "Monk elite", since it's only used by Monks.

There.

EDIT: Rhys ap Llysgwr, you're acting really childish here. And you don't seem to have played an Elly before.

Armageddon · Mar 17, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I have a feeling that people don't know what I'm talking about...

I do know Obsidian Flesh is an Elementalist elite. However, I do not see a point in using it without being a Monk. Or, in other words, it's a "Monk elite", since it's only used by Monks.

There.

EDIT: Rhys ap Llysgwr, you're acting really childish here. And you don't seem to have played an Elly before.

Obsidian Flesh

For 8...18 seconds, you gain +20 armor and cannot be the target of enemy spells, but move 50% slower. This is an elite skill.

how on earth is that a monk only spell ?? its a damn good one imo for Elles - I dont see how it can benefit Monks more than Elle's

Symbol · Mar 17, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Seriously, how far did you get in school? Because you seem to have some difficulty reasoning things out. My initial statement was "elementalists have various spike options". You countered with "only light orb and obs spike". I figured you meant pure light or flame spike, else why argue with me at all? If you really considered at the time that this gave the ele a role in up to 4 disintict spike builds, then what was the point of your argument? That 4 spike build types is not enough to warrant the term "various". Go back to your homework son, stay off the boards for awhile.

Lol. By your asinine reasoning a monk has lots of spike options too, because a monk can be parts of lots of different spike builds without even having a spike skill on his bar.

Truly retarded.

Quote:

LMAO -which skills they apply to is VERY relevant. The dynamics of how much e management a skillbar needs, and what effect this has on the over-all effectiveness of a build, have everything to do with the skills themselves.

And none of those "dynamics" preclude comparing energy storage to expertise. Even if you include skill costs and effects expertise comes out ahead.

Quote:

I have a sneaking suspicion I'm in a pointless argument with somone not old enough to vote yet.

I have a sneaking suspicion I'm arguing with a moron.

Linkusmax · Mar 17, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

The sad thing is I can run a better fire nuker using a warrior with a focus (seriously my joke hamstorm warrior outclasses almost any ele I have come up against.) rather then using an elementalist primary. I can run a better Air spiker using a Mesmer.

The only time I have found a use for a full fledged fire nuker usefull is when using Energizing Winds which just wont work with most PvP builds.

Age · Mar 17, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I would imagine that is why most choose a good scoundary like mesmur for energy and ees do have really poor self heal as to the reason they pick monk.

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Mar 17, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Lol. By your asinine reasoning a monk has lots of spike options too, because a monk can be parts of lots of different spike builds without even having a spike skill on his bar.

Truly retarded.

And none of those "dynamics" preclude comparing energy storage to expertise. Even if you include skill costs and effects expertise comes out ahead.

I have a sneaking suspicion I'm arguing with a moron.

Lol I KNOW I'm arguing with a moron, or an adolescent. All you do is insult and argue pointless semantics.

Now read carefully and try to follow:

My original statement is that an ele has the option to be a part of various different spike builds. And its a really bad comparison, but of course I would say that a monk has the "option to be a part of various spike groups", because of course monks are used for these groups as they are in the majority of builds. But then, we werent questioning the effectiveness of monks were we? We all know that they are used widely by many different build types.

As I said, eles ARE a component of various differnet "types" of spike builds. You want to define a "type" by skill, which is stupid. I define it by build. This argument shouldn't even be, you are just trolling. But I am enjoying watching you act out, so by all means keep it coming boy.

If primary eles had expertise that worked with all their skills, they would be seriously broken. Imagine (try to use your brain here symbol) using elemental attunement with it. At only 13 expertise, all ele elemental spells would cast for free, assuming they arent interrupted. This would be a very effective engine, built right into the class, which WOULD be retarded. As I said, the devs gave eles what they have for a reason, and the skill set available does matter. But oh no, I'm sure the great symbol, game player extraodinaire (rofl), knows better.

oljomo · Mar 18, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I have a feeling that people don't know what I'm talking about...

I do know Obsidian Flesh is an Elementalist elite. However, I do not see a point in using it without being a Monk. Or, in other words, it's a "Monk elite", since it's only used by Monks.

There.

EDIT: Rhys ap Llysgwr, you're acting really childish here. And you don't seem to have played an Elly before.

Hi

Ok, eles have long cast times right, so theyre easy for a mesmer to interrupt right? oops that mesmer cant interrupt you anymore cos youve got obs flesh on....

simple examp[le of when an ele would use it.

another example: oops, i keep getting my armour enchnatments/attunements removed, hmm, what should i do? Oh yes, lets cast obsidian flesh to keep our energy up :O

And another one.

Something you can keep up indefinately that stops all spells beuing cast at you is a hell of a nice skill for anyone, not just monks.

oljomo

moriz · Mar 18, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

perhaps the answer is simply make energy storage +1 energy regen every 5 levels. that should take some care of some of the energy issues.

Symbol · Mar 18, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Lol I KNOW I'm arguing with a moron, or an adolescent. All you do is insult and argue pointless semantics.

Hey, I'm not responsible for your lack of clarity. Stop projecting your (numerous) failures onto me.

Quote:

My original statement is that an ele has the option to be a part of various different spike builds.

You are a liar. What you said was that an elementalist had various "spike options". This is wrong. They have two viable spike options, both of which I named.

Quote:

And its a really bad comparison, but of course I would say that a monk has the "option to be a part of various spike groups", because of course monks are used for these groups as they are in the majority of builds. But then, we werent questioning the effectiveness of monks were we? We all know that they are used widely by many different build types.

No shit sherlock, we were questioning the effectiveness of elementalists, which is why we look at the effectiveness of elementalist skills and elementalist attributes. What we aren't doing (except for you apparently) is stating that because an elementalist can be part of multiple spike builds, that it then follows that he has multiple ways to spike, because anyone with half a functioning brain cell in their head would realize that is patently retarded.

The fact that I even have to explain this to you is rather depressing.

Quote:

As I said, eles ARE a component of various differnet "types" of spike builds. You want to define a "type" by skill, which is stupid. I define it by build.

What else defines an elementalist's ability to spike other than the skills he uses to do so? This argument is so mindbogglingly stupid I don't know what else to say.

Quote:

This argument shouldn't even be, you are just trolling. But I am enjoying watching you act out, so by all means keep it coming boy.

You're half right, this argument shouldn't be, but not for the reasons you think.

Quote:

If primary eles had expertise that worked with all their skills, they would be seriously broken. Imagine (try to use your brain here symbol) using elemental attunement with it. At only 13 expertise, all ele elemental spells would cast for free, assuming they arent interrupted. This would be a very effective engine, built right into the class, which WOULD be retarded.

No one has suggested making energy storage equivalent to expertise outside of your fevered imagination. The point is, again, that expertise is better energy management. In fact it's easy to see that e-storage is barely energy management at all, since it's mostly a one time bonus whose utility vanishes over the course of a prolonged battle. And even if you consider it in the larger context of what skills each class uses, expertise allows rangers to spam their skills much more frequently than elementalists. And guess what? Elementalists are COMPLETLEY reliant on their skills to do damage, while rangers at least have the benefit of applying some pressure with just a preparation + autoattack.

Not that it would matter if elementalists could cast for free-elementalist spells simply don't do all that much damage.

Quote:

As I said, the devs gave eles what they have for a reason, and the skill set available does matter. But oh no, I'm sure the great symbol, game player extraodinaire (rofl), knows better.

If the devs were perfect, there wouldn't be any need to change the game at all. Seeing as they have changed the game, your half assed appeal to authority stands revealed as the nonsense it is.

Mysterial · Mar 18, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therlun

to come up with another idea:
for each rank of energy storage, your max energy is increased by 3,
and you gain 1/2 pip of energy regen while casting.

Actually, I think what you want is the opposite, + energy regeneration while not casting.

IMO, Elementalists should have expensive, powerful spells that, while you're able to cast them, do by a reasonable margin the most effective damage in the game. You shouldn't be able to cast them indefinitely, but you should recharge fast enough that, when you consider both uptime and downtime together, you've still inflicted a large amount of DPS (about that of a warrior, or maybe slightly below).

If we agree that this is what we want for Elementalists, then we have two problems with the current implementation:

1) Elementalists recharge at the same rate as other classes. Once you blow through your energy, it's as if Energy Storage's passive bonus does not exist. Increasing Energy regeneration while not casting fixes this, yet doesn't allow Elementalists to become a forever-casting machine like a Warrior, which would be fine balance wise but not particularly interesting.

2) Elementalist damage sucks. You can read "Why Nuking Sucks" to see the discussion on this, so I won't reiterate it here. However, I don't think the answer is to make Elementalist skills generally cost less nor even necessarily cast faster; they should simply have more effect.

TGgold · Mar 18, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Energy STORAGE was named for a reason.
If they wanted you to have more pips, it'd be energy regeneration.
Storage implies you have a larger *reserve* of energy. Not that you regen faster.

If energy storage gave regen, why would people play with energy management? 3 pips of regen is obnoxious, it would reduce the use of any semblence of energy management on the skill bar.

I think, if anything, Ele's should have more energy management skills in their energy storage attribute that effect their regen, or their temporary maximum. Just an idea.

d3kst3r · Mar 18, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

The main problem with eles is that at the start they have this massive amount of energy and in the first 2 minutes of battle they can spam a large amount of powerful spells for devastating effect... but after that 2 minutes is gone they're out of energy, exhausted and can't do much. Energy storage isn't as effective as people think as the rate of energy regeneration is still the same as that of a monk.

Infact if you look at rangers, you'll notice even they have more energy management than an ele. With 16 expertise all their skills cost like 60% less therefore it's the same as having +6 energy regen constantly which is the main reason why rangers rarely run out of energy.
Eles on the other hand constantly run out of energy and after spamming all their skills they are left vulnerable, exhausted and without much they can do since all their skills cost a lot.

After playing this game since the betas, I've phased through every single class and in the end I've developed a hatred towards playing the ele class so much so that I've avoided it like the black plague.

isamu kurosawa · Mar 18, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Personaly what i think ele's need are energy management skills in the form of stances, the only reason management sucks at the moment is that it doesn't last 2 seconds before being torn apart.

KiSage2 · Mar 18, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Hey Ah, Iam a new player on here so can anyone give me any tips

LightningHell · Mar 18, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armageddon

Obsidian Flesh

For 8...18 seconds, you gain +20 armor and cannot be the target of enemy spells, but move 50% slower. This is an elite skill.

how on earth is that a monk only spell ?? its a damn good one imo for Elles - I dont see how it can benefit Monks more than Elle's

I'll just quote my post from the other thread.

I know OF is uber in PvE, I use it in my UW Invinci-Ele.

I didn't really get my Ministry of Knowledge by being an idiot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Okay, I think we're not on the same topic...I was talking about PvP. In PvP, Elementalists are rarely targeted, except while they're running flags, and even then Obsidian Flesh is bad for the speed reduction.

If you're talking about PvE, then Obsidian Flesh owns.

EDIT: By the way, KiSage, can you tell us what you want us to teach you?

qwe4rty · Mar 18, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGgold

Energy STORAGE was named for a reason.
If they wanted you to have more pips, it'd be energy regeneration.
Storage implies you have a larger *reserve* of energy. Not that you regen faster.

If energy storage gave regen, why would people play with energy management? 3 pips of regen is obnoxious, it would reduce the use of any semblence of energy management on the skill bar.

I think, if anything, Ele's should have more energy management skills in their energy storage attribute that effect their regen, or their temporary maximum. Just an idea.

Just assume for a minute that we can compare Energy Storage to Expertise. Expertise is useful ALL game, since it pretty much adds Energy Regeneration because it lowers the cost of your skills. For every skill. Throughout the course of the fight.

Energy Storage gives you a big base to start with, and then does NOTHING except buffer exhaustion later.

You can't just give the reason its named Energy STORAGE and thats that. Obviously somethings in this game have been underpowered/overpowered so changes had been made. At the moment, I feel that the Elementalist is most likely the weakest class right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

If primary eles had expertise that worked with all their skills, they would be seriously broken. Imagine (try to use your brain here symbol) using elemental attunement with it. At only 13 expertise, all ele elemental spells would cast for free, assuming they arent interrupted. This would be a very effective engine, built right into the class, which WOULD be retarded. As I said, the devs gave eles what they have for a reason, and the skill set available does matter. But oh no, I'm sure the great symbol, game player extraodinaire (rofl), knows better.

O for cryin out loud, use your brain. We are simply saying make Energy Storage SIMILAR to Expertise, as in more effective. Not change it without taking into account balance. Use some common sense.

d3kst3r · Mar 18, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

As I said, the effects of Energy Storage are only good for like the first few minutes of the round. After that you're pretty much on your own. And if you took an ele and matched him up against almost any other class in a 1 v 1 fight, the ele would almost always get his butt kicked unless he was fighting a monk.