Curse

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Mar 15, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

Note: Attunements rebate energy, they don't reduce costs, and the round down comes on the rebate, reducing their effectiveness slightly. On a 5 energy spell, you really only get a 20% reduction (rebate of 1.5 energy, rounded down to 1 after completion of a spell); On a 15 cost spell, you get a 27% reduction (rebate of 4.5 energy, rounded down to 4 after the completion of a spell); On a 25 cost spell, you get a 28% reduction (rebate of 7.5 energy, rounded down to 1 after completion of a spell.)

But their effectiveness reduction doesn't stop there -
-Upon the failure of a spell, whether through interruption, cancelling the spell, or the target dying before completion of a targeted spell, you get NO rebate
-Under conditions that raise the cost of spells, the rebates are not affected similarly; A 33 (base 25) cost spell during QZ only returns 7 energy. [Conversely, this is actually a boon when Energizing Wind is up, and you have energy returned on the higher price, rather than the reduced]
-They cost energy to use
-They're prone to removal, death, or interruption, and have horrendously long recharges

But those're problems with the spells, and not Energy Storage itself.

Energy Storage as an attribute is not very interesting at this time. An increase in maximum energy is a front-loaded bonus that, upon use, is simply gone. It takes just as long to recover the energy for an elementalist as any other caster. What it does do is serve as a buffer against exhaustion, and that it does fairly well.
The problem is that many of the exhaustion causing spells had exhaustion tacked on to them for no apparent reason. Spells like Searing Heat (altered), Earthquake, Meteor Shower, Mind Spells, and the like, that already have other balancing measures on them.
Spells like Gale, Obsidian Flame, Ether Prodigy, and Meteor are the ideal to use with Exhaustion; Their energy cost is cheap, but they exhaust to prevent you from over-using them.
Spells like Meteor Shower already have obscene cast, recharge, AND costs. Maelstrom is the same way.
If skills with exhaustion actually used the exhaustion mechanic to make the skill more usable, such as vastly reduced costs, then the Energy Storage buffer would be better. In that manner, it would be an indirect energy management source. Hence why Ether Prodigy is so popular on high-end Elementalists.

Crunching numbers as to why energy storage is so inefficient is pointless. It is unique, there is no caomparable ability with other classes and thus no frame of reference. Expertise doesnt work with spells, gg.

Moreover, eles have many skill types which make them an asset in pvp (wards, blinding falsh, high dmg aoe, various spike options). In pve, they are still god if you dont have the book/gear, and are still great even if you do.

Mercury Angel · Mar 15, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Crunching numbers as to why energy storage is so inefficient is pointless. It is unique, there is no caomparable ability with other classes and thus no frame of reference. Expertise doesnt work with spells, gg.

Moreover, eles have many skill types which make them an asset in pvp (wards, blinding falsh, high dmg aoe, various spike options). In pve, they are still god if you dont have the book/gear, and are still great even if you do.

I have no idea what you're going on about...
-Numbers are in reference to another poster's comments about attunements, and they're there to explain how attunements work, as they seemed to misunderstand them.
-Yes, there's no such thing as armor that increases maximum energy, or staves/wands/focii or other equipment with passive energy bonuses on them. Thus, we can not possibly fathom the effects of a set increase in maximum energy.
-At no point in time did I ever express anything to indicate that expertise works with spells. If that's in reference to someone else's post, you generally want to separate it from the line where you're already talking to someone directly. Particularly after quoted material.

Symbol · Mar 15, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Moreover, eles have many skill types which make them an asset in pvp (wards, blinding falsh, high dmg aoe, various spike options). In pve, they are still god if you dont have the book/gear, and are still great even if you do.

Cross off "high damage AoE" and "various spike options" from your list and you'd be more accurate.

Therlun · Mar 15, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

a suggestion i made in the accoring sardelac thread:

IMO the ability of the ele to mange his casting schould be changed.

to come up with another idea:
for each rank of energy storage, your max energy is increased by 3,
and you gain 1/2 pip of energy regen while casting.

(meteor shower would give back/additionally regen 10 energy, earth armour 2, at energy storage 12)

qwe4rty · Mar 15, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Problem with a lot of these suggestions to use Dual Attunements is the fact that you still need a high energy base to really be used effectively.

If you want to cast a 25 energy spell, your going to need 25 energy to cast.

If you are trying to keep up a constant DPS and even come near that of a warrior, you aren't going to have that 25 energy.

While it is true that the Energy Buffer does help offset things like Exhaustion, it seems that is the only purpose after the initial few minutes of an engagement.

I could have 100 something energy at the beginning of a fight, and after a few minutes, its not doing anything for me except buffer exhaustion. The only thing a high energy storage is getting me is a little better energy management.

These are my choices:
Ether Prodigy- pretty decent, but its adding to the exhaustion.
Attunements- pretty fragile, and still require the initial cost
Ether Renewal- requiring lots of enchantments and some very fast casting to get your investment.

3 out of the 4 energy managements are elite. None of them really help you lower the cost for high spells.

Unlike a Ranger who doesn't need the 25 Energy to get off a Concussion shot (example only, couldnt think of another 25 energy), an Elementalist will still need to pay the full cost, and Energy Storage doesn't do much to help him in that end (unless its the very beginning of an engagement)

blue cheez · Mar 15, 2006, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Well hopefully an administrater of GW's can see this and look at the numbers. Maybe we'll see a buff for Energy Storage in the next skill update

Div · Mar 15, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darrian Dacorath

I'm sure A-net has some secret they are not telling us... but I agree in full... the full purpose of an elie (IMO) is to deal more damage than any other class (if they can be useful other than that and wards, let me know). But they fail to deal more damage than any other character in the game, save maybe mesmers and monks.

Probably don't want to go into the whole mesmers can do more dmg argument, but eles are meant to do a lot of dmg in the short term. It's been shown that eles who constantly cast spells can do more dmg than warriors constantly attacking/using skills. The downside is meant to be there: eles aren't supposed to be able to keep up that high dmg cast after cast. Theyre meant to run out of mana after a large initial dmg period, otherwise everyone would end up choosing an ele and no one would play any other professions.

Symbol · Mar 15, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

It's been shown that eles who constantly cast spells can do more dmg than warriors constantly attacking/using skills.

Have you been paying attention at all? The exact opposite has been shown. Elementalists can't keep up with warriors even when constantly casting, apart from a couple of fragile builds that rely on twin attunements.

Quote:

The downside is meant to be there: eles aren't supposed to be able to keep up that high dmg cast after cast. Theyre meant to run out of mana after a large initial dmg period, otherwise everyone would end up choosing an ele and no one would play any other professions.

Right now it's all downsides and no upsides. Enlighten yourself and read the "why nuking sucks thread" in the PvP forum (or at least the first post).

Bob of Maple Ave · Mar 15, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob of Maple Ave

PS: I did find a way to outdamage an SS necro, with rather sizeable drawbacks. Going off of a suggestion in my bitchfest post "So Ele's are useless...", I tried an Echo (or Arcane Echo)-MS-Glyph of Sacrifice-Echo combination, and can now cast 2 simultaneous Meteor Showers. The drawback is a cost of 60 or 70 energy, 7-8 second cast time, 20 exhaustion, and 60 seconds of recharge time (for both echo/arcane echo and MS). But it certainly drops those monk bosses pretty quickly.

I just ran a test on this in UW with a 55 monk.

After going to ToA, I got onto a FoW team, then was promptly kicked off because they said they needed an SS necro. They spent the next 15 minutes spamming "group 7/8 needs SS", while I spammed "Exp echo nuker LFG (can outdamage an SS, PM me for build).

Someone did, and we went to UW.

I went through the abovementioned routine on some Bladed Axes. I was doing 54 damage to them, every couple of seconds or so. By the time 10 seconds or so had passed, I'd done the routine, with a fireball and Rodgort's Invocation tossed in for good measure. There they stood, beating on him, with about 3/5 of their life left. There I was, with another 50 seconds before MS and echo recharge, spurting out a fireball every 7 seconds or so and a Rodgort's every 15 (when I had the energy for it), with my dick in my hand and 20 points exhaustion.

It was embarassing. I think he already knew the outcome, and just wanted to shut me up about it. He certainly was condescending about it (the word "dumbass" was tossed out there). He's lucky he was behind a computer somewhere where I couldn't garrot him.

Whether you want to believe that Elemental Skills are underpowered or SS is overpowered, the fact remains that there's a huge performance gap between the two. Necros can perform two critical functions better than Elementalists--that of damage dealer (when it comes to AoE), and that of energy supplier. Elementalists have wards, sure...but a protection monk is better, if you've got to choose one or the other.

For all of you that say that elementalists fulfill many other functions, I say try telling that to the 5 man groups in the war camp, Tombs, FoW, and the 2 man teams in UW. Tell them how special you are.

To those of you that say I should get into a good guild and party only with friends, I can say I'm more interested in making a good guild and being a contributor, not a liability. I don't want people to put me on their team because they feel obligated to do so...I want to be put onto a team because I'm as critical a component as anybody else.

For all of the people that say that they play their elementalists because they have fun, well...I can say that, beyond helping people out in earlier missions, having fun is the only reason I play mine.

PS: I don't think that reworking Energy Storage is the solution, because it eliminates the need for a battery. Another group is left in the cold. Someone had mentioned that Elementalists work in spurts...any ele (or other energy reliant class, for that matter) knows that a battery makes things run much more smoothly (and continuously). I think the solution is to make elementalist skills more effective.

frojack · Mar 15, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Mercury Angel. Thank you for your time

.

Now hopefully people will understand why attunements aren't that great on top of being conditional, and also, btw. Ether renewal mostly sucks.

*It's not like you can use it with Obsidian Flesh to stop your enchantments being stripped. (even still Chilblains anyone?)
*Nor can you stop yourself from being knocked down making the casting of it wasted.
*Nor can you stop yourself being interrupted for the duration.
*Nor can you can you guarantee you'll have a target to spam all those 'primary attribute' spells on either.

I admit, I still use ER now and then. Though I need to bring 4 enchantments to make it useful. Meaning that I only carry 4 attack skills. I'm used to it now, so I have adapted but...

...it still sucks generally being an Ele. That I think is the whole point of this thread no?

Metanoia · Mar 15, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

In my opinion Elementalists, when compared to other classes, seem to have incredibly expensive spells when it comes to offence that are paid for with incredibly powerful energy management*. But, due to their energy management being enchantment based and so easily countered, you're left with expensive spells that are far too inefficient to support with other class's forms of energy management. This seems render them more of a utility class, adding something here and there in the form of some spike damage, a ward or a snare. But being unable to maintain any sort of damage-dealing offence.

*Sure, Energy Storage is just a buffer but the spells associated with it are very powerful and should be considered one and the same with the attribute (Although they're not very reliable, hence the problem).

Bleidd · Mar 15, 2006, 10:04 AM // 10:04

The problem I see with the Elementalist profession is its difficult to balance it between PvP and PvE, without being terribly overpowered in one or woefully underpowered in the other.

Elementalist damage is not sustainable, but either area of effect in nature or a damage spike. Spikes are of questionable use against level 24-28 mobs; an Obsidian Flame will drop another player some 20-25% of their overall health, where it might be as little as 10% off a level 28 mob. In order to achieve similar results against said level 28 mob, the damage would have to be higher, resulting in unbalanced PvP; a 20% PvE spike might translate into a 75% PvP spike, for example.

So in the current game, PvE revolves more around sustained DPS. Elementalists cannot sustain reasonable DPS for any amount of time; casting time, exhaustion, and energy pool all come into play here.

The saving grace for the class was area of effect spells. This is rather obvious as most Pve Elementalists were, and plenty still are, Fire spec. Once the ability to lay an effective screen of AE DOT and AE DD spells down was removed, so with it went the reason most groups brought an Elementalist along in the first place.

You can argue the current effectiveness of AE in PvE til you're blue in the face. Its not useless, but its a shadow of its former power. All too often in order to successfully AE you need also some form of snare, which means bringing along another Elementalist. Its pretty clear most groups simply choose to exclude both and take something else.

Regardless of current AE effectiveness, the majority of the playerbase does not see it as useful, just as they have not seen a majority of the Geo- and Hydromancers, or Mesmers for that matter, as terribly useful. A certain mission or quest might call for one, but beyond that no.

Most of the utility spells of the Elementalist class are also not highly sought after. In my opinion, this is partially due to the short-sighted herd animal mentality of the bulk of the playerbase, and partially due to Anet making the PvE content relatively easy to muscle through. In other words, blindness, snares, wards, etc. are good to use but it can be argued not many see them as at all mandatory. Not when you can just grab another high-sustained DPS warrior or a second Monk.

So what it boils down to, in my opinion, is that you have a class with the capability to do plenty of effective things, but due to a lack of sustainability in a PvE environment that revolves around that, and one that can be easily plowed through without any great deal of finesse or thought, is left behind with the Mesmers (who suffer much of the same problems).

In order to fix this, I'm honestly not sure what can be done. Increasing damage output would make the class that much better in PvP, where it already holds its own. Removing exhaustion would make certain skills extremely powerful; my Geomancer could spam Obsidian Flame almost non-stop were the exhaustion removed, for example. A reasonable fix might be adjusting the cost of Elementalist spells downward, so that instead of having Energy Storage and an increased energy pool compensate for that, it would prolong the sustainability of the Elementalist to keep doing his/her job. Even this might be a band-aid fix, though I doubt it would empower Elementalist secondaries; a Warrior now able to cast say, Meteor Shower, for 15 energy instead of 25, is not going to have a terrible impact on the game.

Another suggested fix might be strengthening or requiring more of a need for the utility effects of the Elementalists' spells. Make wards more effective than 50% evade or +24 armour vs elemental, make snares more useful in PvE armour spells castable on other players instead of only the Elementalist, etc.

As it stands Elementalists are considered situational PvE characters at best. Same boat as Mesmers really. Partially in ignorance, partially in truth.

Thom · Mar 15, 2006, 10:42 AM // 10:42

This is a tangent, but they should fix SS AI just like they fixed AoE AI. Have the mobs reduce the amount they cast/attack under SS/empathy/... to ~1/3 attack rate or support skills only. Either that or have mobs react in an AOE fashion to SS damage. If AI scatters after one SS hit, the problem would be largely solved.

Obviously Elementalist would still be horrible, but they won't be as dominated in PvE. Spiteful Spirit is such a stupid skill, in that any warrior worth his salt sees the SS damage once and is screaming over vent for removal or for his friend to stop swinging. [Note: Elementalists are really mixed in PvP. A good team can interrupt and save an elementalist spike or split party. Good ranger spike will both interrupt obsidian and out last ob-spike.]

Bleidd · Mar 15, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

[Note: Elementalists are really mixed in PvP. A good team can interrupt and save an elementalist spike or split party. Good ranger spike will both interrupt obsidian and out last ob-spike.]

I wouldn't say Elementalists dominate PvP, not by a long stretch; I personally do not think any one profession does. However I don't see Elementalists as comparatively weak in PvP as they are in PvE, in relation to the other classes.

Mob AI is a tricky business. If it was adjusted so that mobs did not cast under Backfire, attack under Empathy, etc., then the PvE game would take an even sharper turn towards sustained melee DPS, and Mesmers and some Necromancer builds would still be in the same boat as Elementalists. Warriors and Monks would be the way to go even moreso than they already are.

Mysterial · Mar 15, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleidd

In order to fix this, I'm honestly not sure what can be done. Increasing damage output would make the class that much better in PvP, where it already holds its own.

As has been said a million times, no it does not. Elementalist damage, excepting a few fragile builds, sucks everywhere, period. Most GvG teams only have an elementalist at all so they can use Ether Prodigy to spam expensive (but not "Elementalist expensive") secondary class skills (usually Heal Party) and a couple primary utility spells like Blinding Flash or wards. Maybe a Lightning Orb now and then when none of the other skills are needed right then.

wolfe2dale · Mar 15, 2006, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleidd

However I don't see Elementalists as comparatively weak in PvP as they are in PvE, in relation to the other classes.

I don't agree, I walked the entire pve game as an ele primary with little or no difficulty.

The AOE update happened when I was in the crystal desert & after a little tweaking to the way I played the character the game became easy again.

I have just recently got a warrior up to THK & would say that the ele class is more powerful in large battles, (while, admittedly being slightly under advantaged in one on ones), having the ability to provide much more instantaneous damage than any other class.

qwe4rty · Mar 15, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleidd

Regardless of current AE effectiveness, the majority of the playerbase does not see it as useful, just as they have not seen a majority of the Geo- and Hydromancers, or Mesmers for that matter, as terribly useful. A certain mission or quest might call for one, but beyond that no.

Most of the utility spells of the Elementalist class are also not highly sought after. In my opinion, this is partially due to the short-sighted herd animal mentality of the bulk of the playerbase, and partially due to Anet making the PvE content relatively easy to muscle through. In other words, blindness, snares, wards, etc. are good to use but it can be argued not many see them as at all mandatory. Not when you can just grab another high-sustained DPS warrior or a second Monk.

Not only that, but many of the utility spells and effects can be covered by another class, and often times more effectively.
Conditions
-Blind - can be taken by Rangers or Mesmers (Though Elementalists can "spam" it a bit more often, the problem of energy arrises)
-Weakness - can be taken by Necromancers
-Burning - not a really important condition, and can be taken by a Ranger (traps usually)

Water and Wards seem to be the only real "good" utility the Elementalist can offer. Wards more so than the water line because Wards can't be dispelled (but force you to stay in one location to receive benefit)

Most of the utility an Elementalist can offer can easily be covered by another class, with less sacrifice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleidd

In order to fix this, I'm honestly not sure what can be done. Increasing damage output would make the class that much better in PvP, where it already holds its own. Removing exhaustion would make certain skills extremely powerful; my Geomancer could spam Obsidian Flame almost non-stop were the exhaustion removed, for example. A reasonable fix might be adjusting the cost of Elementalist spells downward, so that instead of having Energy Storage and an increased energy pool compensate for that, it would prolong the sustainability of the Elementalist to keep doing his/her job. Even this might be a band-aid fix, though I doubt it would empower Elementalist secondaries; a Warrior now able to cast say, Meteor Shower, for 15 energy instead of 25, is not going to have a terrible impact on the game.

Another suggested fix might be strengthening or requiring more of a need for the utility effects of the Elementalists' spells. Make wards more effective than 50% evade or +24 armour vs elemental, make snares more useful in PvE armour spells castable on other players instead of only the Elementalist, etc.

As it stands Elementalists are considered situational PvE characters at best. Same boat as Mesmers really. Partially in ignorance, partially in truth.

What I think needs to be done is make an Elementalist more of a balance between Damage and Utility, without suffocating from a lack of energy. Right now, its too easy to just substitute another class who can do what an Elementalist can do better and more efficiently.

While Energy is a big problem to the class as a whole, its also the skills themselves, and both need to be looked at closely.

Goonter · Mar 15, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

There certainly is a sticky situation here. PvP works hard to achive fair balance between opposing teams.
PvE tips these scales in favor for mobs or players significantly, and yet; skills must be balanced for both styles of gameplay.

I think as PvE better mimics the world of PvP then better balance can be achieved.

For instance, would you place backfire on a npc mob so he can kill himself or so that he will shutdown for 10 seconds?
The motivations for this skill is complelely different in PvP and PvE. If the motivations are the same then all skills can be designed for maximum potentual in both play styles.

And then the elementist, whom Im liking more and more because its fastly becoming an underdog class, can find its rightful rule as a threat that must be mitigated once skills are designed to consider the proper reaction a smart opponent will take towards them along with every other class and skill in the game.

Bob of Maple Ave · Mar 15, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

If the problem is maintaining a balance between PvE and PvP, the solution is simple--change the mobs in the later areas so they have a weakness to some sort of element. That leaves PvP (which I know nothing about, admittedly) largely alone...or perhaps even add some intriguing aspects to it.

One of the ways you could do this is to change the "conjure" spells so that they work on other people's weapons, rather than just your own. You could also create a ward for every different element--ie, all damage in the area of this ward becomes (insert element x here). Maybe you could leave water (through Winter) for the rangers, or give them a different ability and return "Winter" to it's more rightful owners--the so-called "masters" of the elements, who can bend them to their will.

This is entirely in keeping with the spirit of the class...and would do much to increase the desireablitity of elementalists. It would have to make it so that damage could overcome SS.

Of course, having everything in UW or SF be weak to one element kind of makes the game flat...but if you at least give all of the enemies in different areas of the maps some kind of weakness, the Elementalist's ability to change damage types of others constantly and as needed would make them, once again, a welcome addition to any party.

I guess the question remains as to what impact this would have on earlier missions--perhaps it might make some of them too easy? I'm sure it could all work itself out.

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Mar 15, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Cross off "high damage AoE" and "various spike options" from your list and you'd be more accurate.

No, "high-damage aoe" and "various spike options" is highly accurate.