Curse

SnipiousMax · Mar 14, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

I think another bigger problem than energy storage, is that Elementalists are out-preformed by other classes in terms of damage. It's just not worth the effort to use the higher cost, less effective skills when an SS necro can do more with less. Rather than pick at energy storage, I think damage and cost of spells needs to be addressed.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Mar 14, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

2) Duh? It's a well known fact that Expertise is overpowered and Energy Storage is largely useless except to power Ether Prodigy/Renewal.

Overpowered? How so? As others have stated, it doesnt work on spells and if you look at the Ranger skills, a lot of them have really high energy costs to offset Expertise. It's all balanced.

And when you call something overpowered, at least give your reason for thinking so. Also Energy Storage is hardly useless. Wow you really dont have a clue do you?

dreamhunk · Mar 14, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

1) If you can't even be bothered to quickly make a PvP Ranger to find out how much energy they have, you really can't expect anyone to take your arguments seriously.

2) Duh? It's a well known fact that Expertise is overpowered and Energy Storage is largely useless except to power Ether Prodigy/Renewal.

I think you are noob when it comes to other classies. no offense.

Mysterial · Mar 14, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Expertise over-powered, that's a load of crap. The energy cost of ranger skills was determined with expertise in mind. If you weaken it you need to lower the cost of ranger skills to keep balance.

No, all that happens is that Rangers become like all the other Energy based classes in that they will need to put Energy management on their skill bar. One could argue that you really want it the other way around (i.e. make the casters' primary attribute more useful so their classes don't need as much energy management) but that doesn't change the fact that Expertise is overpowered.

MSecorsky · Mar 14, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

No, all that happens is that Rangers become like all the other Energy based classes in that they will need to put Energy management on their skill bar. One could argue that you really want it the other way around (i.e. make the casters' primary attribute more useful so their classes don't need as much energy management) but that doesn't change the fact that Expertise is overpowered.

At no point in this statement is any type of argument remotely validating your claim as to expertise being overpowered. Assertion is not an argument.

Rangers are not an energy class. Rangers are a damage class that uses energy and can't benefit from something like adrenaline.

Besides, you fail to take into account the many many attribute points eaten up by expertise that we rangers would love to have in Marks and Wilderness.

Sents · Mar 14, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Heres a simpler way to disprove your theory, make a ranger ele and play with it as a straight ele. Lets see.... I'll have an energy pool of 35 as the RangerNuker... actually screw it, whats the point. I play both classes(as Im sure do many others)regularily this just seems pointless and silly, as a ranger ele Ill be effectiveley useless with my mana reserve of 35, case closed. The OP has too much time on his/her hands.

Lasher Dragon · Mar 14, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

IMO Expertise could only be considered overpowered if compared to say, Strength. I consider it equal to Energy Storage - yes, it's apples and oranges, and they both serve different purposes, however they both serve their purpose well.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Mar 14, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

No, all that happens is that Rangers become like all the other Energy based classes in that they will need to put Energy management on their skill bar. One could argue that you really want it the other way around (i.e. make the casters' primary attribute more useful so their classes don't need as much energy management) but that doesn't change the fact that Expertise is overpowered.

That is such bull. You really think that Rangers dont ever run out of energy right now? Why do you think Druid's armor is so popular?

And what about Rangers that want to use their spell based secondaries? Expertise is no help there.

Rangers have to manage energy just like other classes, depending on what skills they use. It's ridiculous that you think that they dont need to manage energy at all.

tomcruisejr · Mar 14, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

One's a Ranger, one's an elementalist. Apples and oranges.

amen.

comparing apples, oranges, grapes, raspberry and mangoes is pointless. they have their own characteristics, own color, own flavor.

just like guildwars' classes. each of the classes has its own role to a team and its disadvantages and advantages.

Levian Lain · Mar 14, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

When you're trying to find out how to conserve energy, look at what skills you have availble to you. Even though you cannot have more than one elite skill, you can balance something out to keep you going.

To counteract your major exaustion spell, try using Glyph of Energy. It works wonders.

If you have a lot of exaustion spells, are they really necessary? Do a lot of them have long casting times? If so, rethink or look over your build, you could be prone to quick interruptions and waste a ton of energy.

Timing is everything. You can spam spells quickly to do some burst damage, but this might hurt you in the long run. Time your series of spells right (remember your enchantments!) and you could save some extra energy.

As an elementalist, sure we are burdened by energy costs, casting times, and exaustion... but we have many skills and ways to prevent or lessen these things from happening.

Akathrielah · Mar 14, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Expertise isn't exactly overpowered, its a useful class-only attribute that is actually well worth investing in. So its not so much that Expertise is too strong, its that the other primary attributes for the other classes more or less just plain suck. The only other good primary attribute would be Divine Favor and possibly Fast Casting. Soul Reaping is only useful if you are running a Death Necromancer; Strength is kind of blah, and I think I heard (heard, not confirmed) that the armor penetration it is supposed to factor in is kind of buggy, you typically don't run with more than 9 strength in PvP so you can have a 12 second sprint.

And then we come to Energy Storage.

Energy Storage (in of itself, and is only great because you can pump it higher so you can run Ether Prodigy) on the other hand is pure garbage. Once you start casting you regen just as slowly as any other caster meaning it allows you to expend 2 maybe 3, extra spells tops, for the entire skirmish, and you may not even get the chance to recharge till full before the next clash. Also when you get ressurected by something other than the res shrine, all that extra energy you get from having energy storage, doesn't really matter all that much since elementalist spells are more often than not ridiculously priced anyway.

Oh and people who expect to get away with running dual attunements in GvG are silly.

Mysterial · Mar 14, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

That is such bull. You really think that Rangers dont ever run out of energy right now? Why do you think Druid's armor is so popular?

And what about Rangers that want to use their spell based secondaries? Expertise is no help there.

Rangers have to manage energy just like other classes, depending on what skills they use. It's ridiculous that you think that they dont need to manage energy at all.

I didn't say Rangers didn't need to manage energy, I said they don't need to put energy management on their skill bar. Go through Ranger skill sets, what do you see? Attacks. Preparations. Spirits. Not energy management.

Now look at an Elementalist. What do you see? Ether Prodigy. Some take Attunements instead, because they like being screwed by enchantment removal, but it's still energy management. If you want to be casting even most of the time, you take energy management. Why? Because unlike Expertise, Energy Storage doesn't increase your effective regeneration. Once you blow through that initial rush of energy at the beginning of the game, it's the same as if you had a zero in Energy Storage for purposes of your energy levels.

dreamhunk · Mar 14, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I think the problem with elementals is that they were very powerful people cryed so much about it. that a net has now nerfed soooo bad elementals suck. I think anet needs to really look at the elemental class. It is like it is the back burner of all classies.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Mar 14, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

I would love to see energystorage change to E = E0+ 3*x (x being points in energystorage) and then adding a reduction in spellcosts of 2*x%.

atunements are just to fragile for a class which main advantage can only be reached through constant casting.

Or other option would be to make energystorage not only increase total energy, but also the energy regeneration. But that might just be going totally overboard.

dreamhunk · Mar 14, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

One of the main problems with Elementalists is the energy barrier. A warrior without using any skills can keep up with an Elementalist who is casting spell after spell. (See Ensign's thread on "Why Nuking Sucks").

Ideally, the primary attribute of Energy Storage should offset this, but in reality, its not as effective as it should be.

Take for example the Rangers primary of Expertise, which reduces the cost of all skills. While the current set up of Energy Storage gives a large base pool for the elementalist to blow through, how often are you going to see that pool refilled completely through the course of a hard battle? Especially if you are trying to sustain a constant DPS. One the other hand, the Ranger's Primary is useful throughout the course of the whole fight.

Even with this drawback, the Elementalists get many high costing spells to "balance" the primary, when the Energy Storage is already flawed.

It is my opinion that the Elementalist Class gets reworked, and it is my belief that one simple change could fix this.
Make Energy Storage work similarly to Expertise, but work for Spells and not Skills. While using the exact values from Expertise might be too much, I think this idea would solve a lot of problems.

I like to say I still cannot get over thar fast ss cost alot less than all of fire damage! SS still put out more damage than elemental. they balance out air with fire they should do the same with ss class! if not they should give back something to the elemental class.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Mar 14, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarutaru

Actually, no "class rewoking" is needed. Not in any way shape or form.

The goal of anet was not to make all classes the same, as this would suggest. Anet wanted to make a game where, somewhere, there existed a counter for something else.

What about those rangers and warriors who are able to keep up constant dps? Blind. Ggkthxbye.

Seriously though, every class has both advantages and disadvantages. Yes, ele's blow through energy easily. But melee classes are easily made just as useless through blind and other things. Yes, melee classes are restored to usefullness when some teammate removes the condition/hex. But guess what? You can have the same restored usefullness, just have a necro on your side who can cast energy recharge spells on you. Case solved.

so what agaisnt these eles that are able to keep on casting:

knockdowns, interrupts, exhaustion, dazed, Ggkthxbye.

MSecorsky · Mar 14, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

I didn't say Rangers didn't need to manage energy, I said they don't need to put energy management on their skill bar. Go through Ranger skill sets, what do you see? Attacks. Preparations. Spirits. Not energy management.

Any trapper will tell you that QZ + EW is as much energy management as it is speed. For speed alone, QZ without EW is better, but will suck your energy dry.

Plus... preparations are a form of energy management as well. You can attack with enhanced damage for a bit while allowing for regen.

Energy management in a ranger is huge, even if it isn't stamped as such in bold black print.

It is better to be silent and thought the fool than to open one's mouth and prove them right.

Fred Kiwi · Mar 14, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

What the hell? why is there now a gazillion threads on turning energy storage into expertise, and also, why are they all in riverside? Conspiracy, thats what.

chaos dragoon · Mar 14, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

so what agaisnt these eles that are able to keep on casting:

knockdowns, interrupts, exhaustion, dazed, Ggkthxbye.

Knockdowns also stop warriors and rangers

Your right on interupts, although rangers and wars have some easily interupted skills, casters have a majority interuptable.

Exhaustion is self inflicted. If you manage it correctly it shouldnt be a problem.

Only a few skills cause dazed. I havent seen many teams, if at all running daze skills.

Warriors can also be slown down and kited. You can hide behind walls from all ranger attacks.

wiz12268 · Mar 14, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

I didn't read the whole thread so maybe this has already been said. But a ranger isn't going to have 15 in Exp. 12 is the highest break off point needed, and 9 is the happy medium. Go check out the guide to see when and where to break off exp points. Simply because most ranger skills are 5 and 10 energy anyways, so a higher EXP is lost as it only saves a very small amount over even 9.

But basically because Rangers have so many possible builds (even without using ANY secondary skills) then stocking huge points isn't an option. So a 9 in a 3rd attribute is still a lot of points.

An ElE can basically have 16 in a magic and 15 in Energy Storage and (usedto be) extremely effective. A ranger needs points in Marks, WS, and Exp so he has to definately spilt it up in thirds. Of course a trapper can get away with only two WS and EXP, but that is just one build and not really an offensive one. If a guy wants to try and solo with apet, then of course you need to add BM, so that is yet another skill (and still not using secondary class attributes).

Rangers are basically stand alone classes, so they need that extra advantage IMO. They have a pip less in regen and without Druids armor their energy is very low. Add in a bow with -5 overall energy(an always damage bow) or a -regen bow and it more than evens out.

Rangers aren't there to spam spells, but with some decent energy management and or a zelous bow to sitch to, they should never run out of energy. But niether should an elementalist with 85 energy.

I do not spend my time trying to figure out balance. But I will say that my ranger will run out of energy before my elementalist does.