Curse

qwe4rty · Mar 14, 2006, 08:09 PM // 20:09

One of the main problems with Elementalists is the energy barrier. A warrior without using any skills can keep up with an Elementalist who is casting spell after spell. (See Ensign's thread on "Why Nuking Sucks").

Ideally, the primary attribute of Energy Storage should offset this, but in reality, its not as effective as it should be.

Take for example the Rangers primary of Expertise, which reduces the cost of all skills. While the current set up of Energy Storage gives a large base pool for the elementalist to blow through, how often are you going to see that pool refilled completely through the course of a hard battle? Especially if you are trying to sustain a constant DPS. One the other hand, the Ranger's Primary is useful throughout the course of the whole fight.

Even with this drawback, the Elementalists get many high costing spells to "balance" the primary, when the Energy Storage is already flawed.

It is my opinion that the Elementalist Class gets reworked, and it is my belief that one simple change could fix this.
Make Energy Storage work similarly to Expertise, but work for Spells and not Skills. While using the exact values from Expertise might be too much, I think this idea would solve a lot of problems.

thunderpower · Mar 14, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

All true. Also consider that a ranger loses 15% of let's say 32 energy (druids armor), when an ele loses 15% of let's say 82 energy (12 + 2 major es).
So ranger 15% DP = 5 energy, Ele DP = 12 energy.
Kill an ele twice to make him have the same energy as a memser for instence with no dp.

So imo DP also hurts an ele more.
And yeah, expertise, 4% reduction for each level. So with 15 expertise you get 60% off.

You could say eles have energy managment skills, etc, etc... True, enchants. You get stripped of those in notime in pvp.

Align · Mar 14, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Might wanna use Sardelac for suggestions...
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=135530

Diablo™ · Mar 14, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

One of the main problems with Elementalists is the energy barrier. A warrior without using any skills can keep up with an Elementalist who is casting spell after spell. (See Ensign's thread on "Why Nuking Sucks").

Ideally, the primary attribute of Energy Storage should offset this, but in reality, its not as effective as it should be.

Take for example the Rangers primary of Expertise, which reduces the cost of all skills. While the current set up of Energy Storage gives a large base pool for the elementalist to blow through, how often are you going to see that pool refilled completely through the course of a hard battle? Especially if you are trying to sustain a constant DPS. One the other hand, the Ranger's Primary is useful throughout the course of the whole fight.

Even with this drawback, the Elementalists get many high costing spells to "balance" the primary, when the Energy Storage is already flawed.

It is my opinion that the Elementalist Class gets reworked, and it is my belief that one simple change could fix this.
Make Energy Storage work similarly to Expertise, but work for Spells and not Skills. While using the exact values from Expertise might be too much, I think this idea would solve a lot of problems.

I agree, but I believe it's the effect of exhaustion that's offseting the primary attribute. While many of the elementalist spells are cost heavy, same could be said about some of the skills shared by monks and necros, but it is the massive exhaustions caused by using some of these AoE spells (Meteor.. etc.) that renders having a large energy pool useless.

Elems are a fun class to play with, they deal massive dmg, but the benefit of having a elem primary is not as effective as what the other classes may have.

LouAl · Mar 14, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I find the same problem. My ele can cast some massive spells, but after they are cast it takes a looong time to regen fully, even when using skills to hlep with e-mgmt.

Maybe E-Storage should give 2 energy per point invested, but also negate exhasution for the ele primary, or lessen exhaustion on a per point invested basis.

Darrian Dacorath · Mar 14, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

I'm sure A-net has some secret they are not telling us... but I agree in full... the full purpose of an elie (IMO) is to deal more damage than any other class (if they can be useful other than that and wards, let me know). But they fail to deal more damage than any other character in the game, save maybe mesmers and monks.

plasmasword · Mar 14, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

I would make an E/Mo with max energy storage and healing for heal party spam. =D

Mentalmdc · Mar 14, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

I plan to prove why Energy Storage is a waste of time and why it should work like expertise. I (now) know that expertise doesnt work on spells but lets assume it does for the comparison.

Take an Elementalist with 85 energy (85 is with a +10 energy staff and 15 Energy Storage) and a Ranger with 15 Expertise and an energy pool of 30. The Ele and a Ranger both cast a 15 energy skill, now the Ele being sensible and using attunement spells, spends 10.5 energy on this spell which is 10 as GW rounds down. However the drawback of attunement spells is that the cost to initiate the spell is still 15 energy, the 5 energy is gained after the spell has been cast. This leaves it open to interrupts and knockdowns which stop the player form gaining their energy bonus when the cast is complete. The spell can also not be cast with the actual required energy for that spell.

OK so we have established that an Ele will spend 10 energy on a 15 energy spell. On the other hand, a Ranger with 15 Expertise gets a 60% discount on all skills and normally has an energy pool of around 30 ( not certain on the Ranger energy pool (I don’t play Ranger) but I will correct the post if somebody cares to enlighten me). Expertise at level 15 will make a 15 energy spell cost 6 to cast. Unlike with the Elementalist attunement spells a Ranger would be able to cast with 6 energy in the pool.

A Ranger has 3 pips of regen, leading to 1 energy per second as 1 pip = 0.33 energy regen/second. Therefore the 6 energy can be regained in 6 seconds, whereas the 10 energy that an Elementalist has to pay takes 7.5 seconds to regen.

Lets presume that the spell takes 2 seconds to cast, and has a 5 second recharge (lightning orb, for example) An Ele can cast 8 times and have 5 energy left over without regen, and a Ranger can cast 5 times with no energy left over. If we account for regen then:

Ele - 5 casts = 25 seconds = 33 energy gained through regen

5 casts cost 10*5=50-33 from regen=17. Meaning a total of 17 energy lost every 5 casts, out of a pool of 85 energy, which is 1/5th of the Eles maximum energy.

Ranger - 5 casts = 25 seconds = 25 energy gained through regen. 5 casts cost 6*5=30-25 form regen=5. Meaning a total of 5 energy lost every five casts, out of a pool of 30 energy, which is 1/6th of the Ranger’s maximum energy.

Therefore a Ranger could cast a 15 energy, 5 second recharge spell, 30 times, before having to wait more than 5 seconds to cast again.

On the other hand an Elementalist could cast a 15 energy, 5 second recharge spell, 25 times, before having to wait more than 5 seconds to cast again, which is rather low in comparison.

If the Ele cast the attunement and went straight into the casting the spell string then he would only have a pool of 75 energy to start with meaning that only 22 spells could be cast. And to top it all off if the Ele hadn’t already been punished enough the total length of the casting string would take almost 2 minutes, meaning the attunement would have to be recast meaning the Ele has a starting energy pool of 85-(10*2) + 1.66 = 66.66 (the 1.66 energy is added on to account for the energy gained while casting the attunement (attunemnets take 1 second to cast)). Therefore the grand total for number of casts an Ele can complete before it runs dry is.....

20!!
(Rounded UP)

This is pitiful compared to the Ranger, a non caster class that can cast 30 times.

Now the real shocker...

Let’s assume the spell was lighting orb 15 energy to cast, 2 second cast time, 5 second recharge, and at 12 lighting magic this spell will cause 82 damage to the target. 82x30 is 2460 damage, before the Ranger runs out of energy.

If the Elementalist has 16 in lighting magic then the orb would cause 106 damage to the target. 106x20 is 2120.

Therefore I draw a definitive conclusion (as long as all my calculations are accurate) that a Ranger can cause more damage using a single spell than an Elementalist can!

Thanks for reading,
-THE M-

P.S. Please feel free to correct any flaws in my calculations.

MSecorsky · Mar 14, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

One's a Ranger, one's an elementalist. Apples and oranges.

Who cares?

Footnote... Expertise doesn't work on spells.

Aejorii · Mar 14, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Expertise doesn't work on spells. GG.

koneko · Mar 14, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mentalmdc

Expertise at level 15 will make a 15 energy spell cost 6 to cast.

Expertise doesn't work on spells.

SnipiousMax · Mar 14, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

All of this is assuming that Expertise applies to "SPELLS" which it doesn't. Expertise only lower's the cost of "SKILLS." So while everything was right in theory, you missed that, and it negates a large part of your comparasion.

Wow, three people posted samething at once....

Mysterial · Mar 14, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

1) If you can't even be bothered to quickly make a PvP Ranger to find out how much energy they have, you really can't expect anyone to take your arguments seriously.

2) Duh? It's a well known fact that Expertise is overpowered and Energy Storage is largely useless except to power Ether Prodigy/Renewal.

Mentalmdc · Mar 14, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Poop ok, lets do some editing

MSecorsky · Mar 14, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

1) If you can't even be bothered to quickly make a PvP Ranger to find out how much energy they have, you really can't expect anyone to take your arguments seriously.

2) Duh? It's a well known fact that Expertise is overpowered and Energy Storage is largely useless except to power Ether Prodigy/Renewal.

Expertise over-powered, that's a load of crap. The energy cost of ranger skills was determined with expertise in mind. If you weaken it you need to lower the cost of ranger skills to keep balance.

SnipiousMax · Mar 14, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

2) Duh? It's a well known fact that Expertise is overpowered and Energy Storage is largely useless except to power Ether Prodigy/Renewal.

Largely useless? What else are they gonna put points in?

tarutaru · Mar 14, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Actually, no "class rewoking" is needed. Not in any way shape or form.

The goal of anet was not to make all classes the same, as this would suggest. Anet wanted to make a game where, somewhere, there existed a counter for something else.

What about those rangers and warriors who are able to keep up constant dps? Blind. Ggkthxbye.

Seriously though, every class has both advantages and disadvantages. Yes, ele's blow through energy easily. But melee classes are easily made just as useless through blind and other things. Yes, melee classes are restored to usefullness when some teammate removes the condition/hex. But guess what? You can have the same restored usefullness, just have a necro on your side who can cast energy recharge spells on you. Case solved.

Jenosavel · Mar 14, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

So you paraphrased the ideas in my thread and dumbed them down so that people would actually read them? I'm not sure if I should be annoyed or flattered.

I guess I'll choose the latter.

In the process of shrinking the post down, however, you've overlooked a lot of the reasons as to why ANet should even care, as in how the current elementalist primary energy management skills deal with the situation and why we should expect more.

You've also overlooked the key problem with giving the elementalist better energy management to deal with their high-cost spells. Usually such measures help out non-elementalist stuff far more than they do elementalist spells... like the example right above me with using an E/Mo for monk stuff only.

My thread points out these things, and offers some ideas as to how potential problems can be avoided. They will need to be discussed if there is to be even a glimmer of hope that these changed would be considered by ANet. If you really think this is a good idea, let's get some in-depth conversation going on the matter and really consider what the reprecussions of these changes would be.

Edit: Well, the E/Mo post was right above mine when I started typing anyway...

Cherno · Mar 14, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Also take double attunement into account. 80% recoup of energy. My spells cost my 20%, yours cost you 40%.

If you are going to run an comparison, don't handicap one with being interrupted and the other not.

Find a commonality in which both can compete (spells don't work as stated above) and set them up with the same rules.

If you don't want to take double attunement into account, then don't inlcude a single attunement.

Ensign · Mar 14, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Well Energy Storage is huge in PvE, and not only because PvE 'nubs' are obsessed with big numbers. Battles in PvE are extremely short in general so they can burn through that energy and just wait for it to regen. There's also very likely a lot of holdover from other games where in-combat energy regeneration is minimal and you just have your initial pool to work with, which makes people overestimate Energy Storage.

Energy Storage does have value in PvP though, for two main reasons - first, exhaustion, and second, the need to manage energy. Basically even if max energy pool doesn't give you a lot of benefit in raw energy in the long term, it does give you quite a benefit in terms of energy flexibility. With a low max energy you need to use cheap spells pretty regularly to get maximum usage out of your energy regeneration - with a higher max, you can be a lot more coarse and fire off skills in spurts. It becomes even more important with active energy management. You don't want to be waiting around to use your energy skills, you want to just fire them off and benefit.

So for many other casters the types of spells and emanagement they're using greatly effects the amount of energy they want. For instance a Word of Healing monk, working in a heavy edenial environment, really doesn't care about max energy capacity all that much. He'll probably take multiple pieces of Judge's armor, and spend a lot of time on his -energy set. On the other hand a Mantra of Recall monk wants as much max energy as he can reasonably get. You'll see him in full tattoos, and very often with an energy sword and focus. He needs the extra max energy to get the most benefit from the mantra, he can't control when it's going to pop so he needs the max energy buffer.

Elementalists work in much the same way. You need some emanagement to make your guy work, and you're a character that's inherently going to come in spurts, so you're going to need some max energy to work with. But the bigger thing for elementalists is exhaustion. Exhaustion makes a caster miserable. It should be clear why - they need max energy capacity to maximize their emanagement and to get energy flexibility, and even modest amounts of exhaustion can really cripple a caster of a different profession. Elementalists have Energy Storage though, which works as an exhaustion buffer, letting them use those skills much more often without crippling their character.

Just to illustrate how all of this works a bit, consider a not terribly uncommon character, a necromancer/elementalist with Offering of Blood and Gale. Now normally a necromancer with normal armor has to run his Offering pretty tight (at 16 blood spec). You need 5 energy to use it, but you also need to have around 19-20 'empty' energy to fill up using the Offering otherwise you're wasting it, and realistically you want a bit more so that you're not forced to cast immediately. So in reality, with normal armor and a wand/focus, you need to be between 5 and 20 energy when you use the Offering, giving you a 15 energy window to work with. Now consider what happens when you use a Gale. Your max energy constricts by 10, which also constricts the size of that window. Now in order to maximally use Offering of Blood, you have to be between 5 and 10 energy. That's a really tiny window to try and work with practically. A second Gale, even 15 seconds later to have worked off half the exhaustion, would put you at 27 max energy and virtually require you to fire off Offerings at exactly 5 energy unless you want to waste. So for a character like this scars are incredibly valuable. Not because they give you 7 energy, but because they raise the size of that window, and let you use your Gale and Offering more aggressively. The two windows above become 5-17 and 5-12 with scars on, a much more manageable situation.

So I really don't see a problem with the elementalist's primary attribute, on the surface. It gives the elementalist energy flexibility and a buffer to use exhaustion skills without seriously impacting his performance. If there is a problem it's in design philosophy. Energy Storage, despite earlier comments and discussions, does not give you energy. It does not work like Expertise, making your skills cheaper and thus letting them have a higher base price. Elementalist skills cost what they say they do, unmitigated, and you can't point to Energy Storage to justify that. In other words elementalist skills need to be appropriately priced for a character without Energy Storage and for the most part that simply isn't true. If you want to fix the profession, that's what needs to be addressed - making the skills worth the hefty price tags attached to them.

Peace,
-CxE