Curse

LightningHell · Jun 22, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

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Originally Posted by Symbol

Assassin.

Mesmer, Necromancer, perhaps now Monk, too.

Rangers? ...maybe.

Chilly Ress · Jun 23, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

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Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

frequently water magic sucks to use in PvP. Long recasts with very little damage.

Lawl! You are funny.

LightningHell · Jun 24, 2006, 05:43 AM // 05:43

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Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

Lawl! You are funny.

Why did I not notice that comment?

Anyways, *is too busy rofl-ing*

LoyalSoldier · Jun 24, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

Lawl! You are funny.

Just saying what I think. I just don't see as much use for it as other types. It is great for pestering other players. In the comfort of a GvG build you could use it though I doubt you are going to be the main damage.

If you want damage water is not the way to go IMO.

LightningHell · Jun 24, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

Just saying what I think. I just don't see as much use for it as other types. It is great for pestering other players.

If you want damage water is not the way to go IMO.

Who uses it for damage?

Who uses an Elementalist for any sort of consistent damage?

LoyalSoldier · Jun 24, 2006, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Who uses it for damage?

Who uses an Elementalist for any sort of consistent damage?

Yep. Though compared to the other elements it has the worst damage.

Frankly the elementalist across the board needs some work.

Tongloid Tarthwood · Jun 24, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Who uses an Elementalist for any sort of consistent damage?

That's exactly what I was thinking. Then it came to me. Combat really is a series of actions and reactions. It isn't a steady damage brawl or we'd all be tanks. Combat is lots of little oportunities and choices. And that's where the ele excells. Large packets of damage helps more than small packets, when there is a monk watching but not really looking directly at that person.. That's why I love alliance battles so much. There's lots of objectives where you need large packets. Maybe my argument didn't make much sense, so here's an analogy.

You're trying to kick a ball out of a ditch. You try lots of little kicks, but you'll never really get there. Then, you try one big hoof and the ball is at the top. Hooray.

joncoish · Jun 24, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

That's the thing. Everyone here seems to be saying elementalists can't do much damage. Huh? Maybe in a 5 minute stretch there are a lot of other classes that can do more damage overall then an elementalist, but I fail to see what other class can out damage an elementalist in one skill or spell. Maybe I'm reading other skill descriptions from other classes wrong or something, I dunno, but what other class can match the about 360 total potential damage I can do with a fireball? Or even more then that total with a meteor shower. Throw Rodgorts Invocation out there and you have the potential to hit 360 total damage plus burning. Elementalists can do big damage with one fireball, one meteor shower, one rodgorts. That's the main reason why I personally find them the most fun, and I think it's their main advantage as far as damage dealing. Whereas other classes like mesmers and assassins, rangers, etc, will probably rely on a few skills, degen, or damage over time, an elementalist can do big damage in one shot. So like I said, maybe other classes can out damage an elementalist over time, but in one skill or spell I fail to see how they can. Even if you're looking at armor effects, well an elementalist can switch over to either earth or air magic vs high armor mobs. Obsidian flame ignores armor for a cool 100 hps, crystal wave can do 300+ damage to surrounding mobs, ignoring armor, etc. Most air spells have certain percentage armor penetration, etc. I think they do plenty of damage.

Phades · Jun 24, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by joncoish

That's the thing. Everyone here seems to be saying elementalists can't do much damage. Huh? Maybe in a 5 minute stretch there are a lot of other classes that can do more damage overall then an elementalist, but I fail to see what other class can out damage an elementalist in one skill or spell. Maybe I'm reading other skill descriptions from other classes wrong or something, I dunno, but what other class can match the about 360 total potential damage I can do with a fireball? Or even more then that total with a meteor shower. Throw Rodgorts Invocation out there and you have the potential to hit 360 total damage plus burning.
... So like I said, maybe other classes can out damage an elementalist over time, but in one skill or spell I fail to see how they can. Even if you're looking at armor effects, well an elementalist can switch over to either earth or air magic vs high armor mobs. Obsidian flame ignores armor for a cool 100 hps, crystal wave can do 300+ damage to surrounding mobs, ignoring armor, etc. Most air spells have certain percentage armor penetration, etc. I think they do plenty of damage.

For the same reason why people state that warrior dps nerfs their damage, all aoe spells suffer even worse from. People tend to move. With some monsters in pve also sharing this property. Also, with the longer casting times, most other professions can spike before the spell even finishes, never mind considering the after cast time penalty or the recharge before the next casting. Then you have alot of skills, like rodgort's invocation, that are overpriced and casting slow for no real reason other than the fact that energy storage exists.

Elementalists suffer the most from high armor level monsters as well. This is mainly due to the fact that every other profession in the game bypasses armor easier than a elementalist does and has more methods to do so. The only real benefit from armor penetration from air, is against AL 60 targets where you get more than the listed amount of damage. Trying to justify all of these weaknesses through "potential" damage in any form of aoe, especially damage over time aoe and point blank aoe, is rather laughable due to the fact that targets move. Even if you were to compare against the maximum possible number of targets, there are limits to what monks can heal in pve, which is a indirect limitation on the damage capability of aoe skills (assuming the pull doesnt split) and ignoring the damage reduction in end game encounters where that style of pulling is actually meaningful.

Ensign · Jun 24, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

If you want higher single target damage, attacks that cause Deep Wounds are the single most dangerous ones. Professions that can buff their damage can get up there as well. If you want AoE situations, the most damaging single attacks tend to come from those same physical professions using AoE attack skills.

The best single target spike skill is Eviscerate - the best small AoE blast comes from Triple Chop. If you want a large AoE blast, Energy Surge is at the top of the list. Etc, etc, etc. Eles have a lot of damage skills, but the number of them them that are on par with what other professions do is pretty pedestrian really.

Peace,
-CxE

joncoish · Jun 24, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

I'm not even talking about the AoE spells that cause mobs to scatter. I don't even use those, and I do plenty of damage. I will admit that mobs scattering from those spells does suck, but it's easy to avoid.

joncoish · Jun 24, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

well, I use meteor swarm, but only on groups of mobs. Because it'll knock the group down, I usually still get enough hits on them to justify the casting time and cost.

I'm only argueing here because it seems half the time people are saying that elementalists don't do big damage, and that's a bit rediculous to me. I will agree they're not the most consistent damage dealers, because armor does affect alot of their spells, but they definitely CAN do big damage with the right build for the area.

Ensign · Jun 25, 2006, 07:32 AM // 07:32

It is possible to define 'big damage' in such a way that elementalists can deal 'big damage'.

Under that standard, however, every non-ritualist profession can deal big damage, so it's a pretty meaningless standard, don't you think?

Peace,
-CxE

LightningHell · Jun 25, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by joncoish

well, I use meteor swarm, but only on groups of mobs. Because it'll knock the group down, I usually still get enough hits on them to justify the casting time and cost.

Area...? Right build for the area...? Unh...

AND IT'S SPELT METEOR SHOWER.

Apok Omen · Jun 25, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Well, Im back to this forum and so far the arguement has raged on.

Ensign, I have read your posts and it seems like you have very strong evidence to support your statements.

I understand that this thread was centered on flaming Eles due to their supposed ''sucky damage''. Im curious, where has it been said that Eles were supposed to be the best damage dealers in the game?

Thats right, no where. Only from people who have played Eles can say that Eles do good damage. Armor from foes depletes that damage, making a 16-fire-magic Rodgerts Invocation do a mesely 90-damage to target foe and foes adjacent from one blast. Oh, and plus burning.

Were Eles meant for only dealing heavy damage?

Yes and No.

Yes: they deal good damage to groups of enemies from one spell without any conditions. Some do armor-ingoring damage.

No: They can plant Wards to protect their allies and hinder their enemies. Snares to make kiting a breeze for themselves and allies. Blinding to annoy the melee classes and Rangers. Knockdowns to stop their enemies from moving.

So what if Eles do medium damage now? That is not their full role in the game. Factions has made that perfectly clear, what with buffing earth and water magic (count out ShatterStone; that skill is worthless, imo)

But compared to other damage-dealing classes, Eles dominate in the ''non- conditional aoe direct damage in one spell'' realm.

Mesmers need their targets to have energy in order to do good damage from certain spells (Energy Surge/Burn)

Necros need their foes to do something or have a condition and/or hex and enchantment to do good damage(Discord, Desecrate Enchantments, Spiteful Spirit) which means which most of their skills, the foe could just stand still and leave their keyboard and the damage will not even take place.

Ritualists need spirits up to do good, non-armor-penetrating damage (Spirit Burn, Channeled Strike)

Monks (smiters) need their opponent to do something for some spells to work (Shield of Judgement, Scourge Sacrifice/Healing) Or they need to cast spells on their allies(Zealots Fire)

Eles do powerful spells that target groups right on the dot without them or their enemy having to do or have anything. Yet, those powerful spells are depleted due to armor buffs.

Now, this thread seems to have been in favor of making Warriors seem invincible and hands down the BEST profession in GW.

*BUZZER* wrong. At the start of the game, ANet makes it really clear that no profession is better than the rest IN GENERAL. Warriors, believe it or not, have the same number of weaknesses as any other profession.

Eles can Blind them, Weaken them, snare them, dodge them, KD them.

Mesmers can get rid of their adrenaline and energy by the snap of a finger.

Necros can punish them from attacking by stealing their health or damaging them if they do.

Monks can simply out-heal their attacks.

Assassins can easily shadow-step away from them, or cast one enchantment making them able to negate damage from a single attack, yet still hurt them.

Rangers can Cripple+Poison them in one shot, instantly handicapping them. (Plus, rangers are better, IMHO, at farming then the notorious wammos.)

And Ritualists can simply put up a spirit that makes them able to evade their attacks, at the cost of the spirit losing health.

Now, Eles have weaknesses as well as any other class. Interrupts, disabling, conditions, etc.

My point is that Eles are all-around, same as any other class, thus having many strengths and even more weaknesses.

joncoish · Jun 25, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Area...? Right build for the area...? Unh...

AND IT'S SPELT METEOR SHOWER.

actually, meteor swarm is spelt meteor swarm.

joncoish · Jun 25, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Right, elementalists are all-around. I agree with that, and I also agree that elementalists probably aren't going to be the best damage dealers over all, but saying that elementalists suck at damage, or don't do much damage at all, which seems to be what a lot of these posts are saying, is kind of stupid. Look at fireball. Even if the damage from fireball is cut down to 60-80 hps on the mob because of armor, if you hit three mobs with it (which I often do) that's still 180-240 hps total for 10 energy. How does that suck, from a fairly spammable spell? Meteor shower does fireball type damage, but is area wide and knocks the mobs down. So in the same case, how does that suck doing 60-80 hps damage to 3+ mobs, all the while knocking them down in the process? That's taking armor into consideration for fire magic, but against mobs with lower armor the numbers are going to be even higher. And using armor ignoring spells, well armor doesn't have ANY effect. I argue the point of potential damage, and it's a fair one to argue. Potential damage just means that this is the max damage elementalist can reach, but it also means they're not going to always get this. I've already conceded the point that elementalist aren't the best damage dealers overall because of armor effects, but vs certain mobs they can do more damage in a single shot then any other class by what I can think of. Because of the armor effects they can choose to go different routes vs higher armor mobs. They can focus on armor and defense, or go for more armor penetration at the loss of the area effect. All I'm saying with my posts is that elementalists CAN deal big damage, to the point of outdamaging any class in one shot, but the main disadvantage of elementalists as damage dealers is that armor has a big effect, so their damage isn't going to be as consistent as other classes. But in these cases they have other options to use. So they definitely don't suck, it's just how you play them.

LoyalSoldier · Jun 26, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Area...? Right build for the area...? Unh...

AND IT'S SPELT METEOR SHOWER.

I thought Spelt was a grain similar to wheat.

Luciora · Jun 26, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

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Originally Posted by joncoish

actually, meteor swarm is spelt meteor swarm.

WTH is Meteor Swarm? Perhaps a translation for another country? It is called Metoer Shower. There is no swarm. Just like there is no spoon