Curse

Mr Doom Maker · May 29, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

I am a lvl 18 E/Me, I use mainly Fire Magic and Energy storage.
I've out damaged lvl 20 wars that are buffed by another ele,
we are good if you now how to play us.
(Simply: If your a nOOb your gonna suck but if ur pro you OWN!)

LightningHell · May 29, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Doom Maker

I am a lvl 18 E/Me, I use mainly Fire Magic and Energy storage.
I've out damaged lvl 20 wars that are buffed by another ele,
we are good if you now how to play us.
(Simply: If your a nOOb your gonna suck but if ur pro you OWN!)

We play Elementalists too. I'm a level 20 E/Mo who can badly outdamage that paladin over there

Your typical Shock-axe or Touch-axe or Hammer outdamages your elly.

Mandy Memory · May 30, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

We play Elementalists too. I'm a level 20 E/Mo who can badly outdamage that paladin over there

Your typical Shock-axe or Touch-axe or Hammer outdamages your elly.

Are you sure? Some wammos run smite and/or axes

And my ele can outdamage a warrior (Only on a 3/4 second time scale...not enough time for the deepwound to do its magic)

Aftershock against a knocked down character is a good example.

Phades · May 30, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

Are you sure? Some wammos run smite and/or axes

And my ele can outdamage a warrior (Only on a 3/4 second time scale...not enough time for the deepwound to do its magic)

Aftershock against a knocked down character is a good example.

Aftershock alone doesnt kill anything. It is also conditional, on a slow recycle, and is largely mitigated by prot spirit and armor level. Comparitivly speaking, for a conditional skill, crushing blow has way more bang and costs half the energy. Falling spider->twisting fangs also presents an interesting damage argument as well in terms of both spike and damage over time.

LightningHell · May 30, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

Are you sure? Some wammos run smite and/or axes

And my ele can outdamage a warrior (Only on a 3/4 second time scale...not enough time for the deepwound to do its magic)

Aftershock against a knocked down character is a good example.

I'm talking about paladins who run Healing Hands, Mending, et cetera.

Aftershock...has a horrible aftercast, with everything Phades said. It's a nice filler spot for my Earth PBAoE farming, though.

Ensign · May 30, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Then that is just silly isn't it? Elementalist's are supposed to be damage dealers. Not a support class.

Well what a class is supposed to be, and what they actually are, don't have to be the same thing, do they? I agree that what elementalists are, and what they are advertised as, are very, very different professions. Whether this is a problem or not is subject for debate, and an interesting one at that. I just don't like false pretenses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

In essence, a ranger with 14 expertise is like having his energy capacity increased by 2/3rds, while at the same time posessing 5 pips of natural energy regeneration, instead of 3.

Upside down. 14 Expertise is like running at 2.5x energy capacity with 7.5 pips of natural energy regeneration - 80 max energy and 7.5 pips with druid's armor. Equivilent for the elementalist would be (with normal wand + focus) 105 max energy with 10 pips of regen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

And my ele can outdamage a warrior (Only on a 3/4 second time scale...not enough time for the deepwound to do its magic)

Aftercast of the knockdown spell increases the gap to 1.5 seconds, more than enough time for a second hit to land with any melee or ranged weapon. On any timeframe larger than instantaneous the gap between warrior and ele damage grows, as warrior attacks always land more frequently than ele spells.

Peace,
-CxE

Phades · May 30, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Upside down. 14 Expertise is like running at 2.5x energy capacity with 7.5 pips of natural energy regeneration - 80 max energy and 7.5 pips with druid's armor. Equivilent for the elementalist would be (with normal wand + focus) 105 max energy with 10 pips of regen.

I knew i was forgetting something along the way. I kept thinking about how chainable some of the skills are for rangers and it wasnt adding up right. My bad, but i knew the line of thought wasnt incorrect.

Kinda sad when you think about it though, having to run prodigy just to be roughly equal to ranger innate efficiency. 10 pips all the time with that much extra energy does sound a little over the top though.

frojack · May 30, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

PHADES: Its not that expertise has a problem, its that it is a problem.

Ah I see. That old chestnut. Touch rangers are largely the reason the Vamp skills are so over-baring. It's just so very hard to keep up with that kind of damage when you don't have a monk picking up your slack. I don't even wanna' go there though. Whether or not that is a problem, is something I'd rather not get into

.

Quote:

ENSIGN: Well what a class is supposed to be, and what they actually are, don't have to be the same thing, do they? I agree that what elementalists are, and what they are advertised as, are very, very different professions. Whether this is a problem or not is subject for debate, and an interesting one at that. I just don't like false pretenses.

You are of course correct. It is somewhat annoying that Anet has let the current situation run for so long. We can only speculate about their motives. Is this a natural development they prefer to nurture rather than correct? Emergent gameplay being the 'holy Grail' of game design.
Or do they believe Elementalists to be so potentially dangerous that they prefer to see them chained to the slippery slope their on, as the lesser of 2 evils. If the later is the case, I believe the problem lies with multiple Elementalists working together. I can imagine a group of Elementalists causing a huge amount of damage when highly coordinated. In an instant, they can quite easily obliterate a single opponent. The zeishen challenge with 4 earth elementalists shows they are at least aware of this.
This isn't something exclusive to Elementalist I'm sure your aware. A few days ago I watched a War Machine GvG match with an opponent I regrettably cannot remember the name of. These guys we're running something like 5 necro's, 2 monks, and a ritualist. When any War Machine team member was unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, they we're completely annihilated by the necro's.
It was quite fascinating to watch. You see GvG has never really been my thing. I enjoy PvP but have found GvG to be more running around than I care for. I don't mind a match taking 30 minutes to come to a close, but I would prefer it happen when 2 opposing sides are so well balanced, that their just battling and waiting for their opponents defences to crack. That's the kind of PvP I enjoy, but I'm on a crazy tangent here.

LightningHell · May 30, 2006, 08:59 AM // 08:59

I can't see a Touch ranger outdamaging a Warrior, though.

frojack · May 30, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I can't see a Touch ranger outdamaging a Warrior, though.

The amount of damage isn't the main concern. The fact that the damage cannot be mitigated with conventional means is. There is still no way to stop life-stealing. Other than killing your aggressor. You can't even blind them. Spell breaking enchantments don't work either since they are not spells. They cannot be blocked or evaded.

Virtually unstoppable.

LightningHell · May 30, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

The amount of damage isn't the main concern. The fact that the damage cannot be mitigated with conventional means is. There is still no way to stop life-stealing. Other than killing your aggressor. You can't even blind them. Spell breaking enchantments don't work either since they are not spells. They cannot be blocked or evaded.

Virtually unstoppable.

Well...do you have any way of disabling the opponent? You're gonna get killed quick if you haven't got that.
And you still have to get in touch range.
I'm just not a fan of touch-rangers.

Mysterial · May 30, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Well...do you have any way of disabling the opponent? You're gonna get killed quick if you haven't got that.
And you still have to get in touch range.
I'm just not a fan of touch-rangers.

The problem is that the majority of the random arena population is warriors, rangers, and assassins, none of which can reasonably stop a touch ranger due to evasion stances and Plague Touch. If you don't get a monk and don't have someone with slow hexes you're pretty screwed against it. In fact, it's a lot like the old Fragility/Virulence combo that way (in that case, if you don't get a monk and can't interrupt Phantom Pain or Virulence) which given past history probably means they're going to obliterate Vampiric Touch.

Sora of the Flame · Jun 02, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

As a long time Ele supporter...over a year now. I would like to say Ele's these days are very good in PvE if you go fire and know how to play it. They can deal tons of damage in PvE with rodgorts burning speed and other skills. Yet when it comes to PvP they are pretty much utility only. You will not see a good PvP'r doing lots and "ONLY" lots of damage as an ele. In RA and stuff you should be support such as water for slowdown...air for blind and weakness...and earth for wards. In a GvG about the only thing you can do is utility slowdown, ward, heal party, blind, and of coarse the E/Mo runner. In a GvG of coarse your not going to try to outdmg a warrior....it's not going to happen. In PvP ele's are raw utility or in some cases spike helpers which is usually for warriors. While in PvE Ele's still are very good to do a lot of damage do to the fact that AI isnt smart enough to spread out and not have 4 of them get hit by a rodgorts at a time. As well as theres always more enemies. You cannot just be a raw GvG'r and PvP'r and notice how bad the eles suck for dmg there and say they can't do damage anywhere. Becuase in PvE they still are very much wanted. How many times in PvE do you WANT 4 warriors in your party...you dont.

Last thing....anyone who say ele's suck AT EVERYTHING...you must not be a good player then. Go look at how many top guilds run 1 if not 2 eles for flag and utility. The ele is the ultimate monk protector...he can ward,blind,speed up monks,slow enemy warriors TONS of shit. also deep freeze is the shit in GvG as well. So as a long time ele supporter from when they were awesome pre aoe-nerf to before factions to now....they are still good in pve for damage...but they should be mainly utility support in PvP. Thats all

Ensign · Jun 02, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sora of the Flame

How many times in PvE do you WANT 4 warriors in your party...you dont.

I would take five warriors in PvE with regularity if I could find five warriors who knew their ass from a hole in the ground.

Peace,
-CxE

LightningHell · Jun 05, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Agreed with Ensign.

The main problem with Warriors in PvE are the idiots playing them, not the damage capability of the class. If it were lacking in damage potential, 1) it wouldn't be called a Warrior, and 2) it wouldn't be run in GvGs, etc.

And in later stages in the game, Fire is pathetic. IMHO.

Batou of Nine · Jun 08, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

To the original Poster. Here are three simple words that make the elementalist shine in PvE::

Echo, Meteor Storm

=== VERY usefull in PvE. Duh!

joncoish · Jun 11, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Who says elementalists are SUPPOSED to be the best damage dealers? Where does it say that? In the guild wars guide book that actually comes with the game it says that a fire elementalist can out damage anyone, and so they can. But it's potential damage really. With one fireball, if I hit the full amount on say 3 targets, I can do up wards of 350 total damage (the total from each target). Ok, so it's not on ONE target, but it's still damage to the group. In the thread, the person who mentioned the warrior outdamaging an elementalist said 300 was the magic number for them. So, 350 is greater then 300. But that being said, an elementalist is more then just damage. I like using fire magic even with the armor effect because it softens up groups quickly. But elementalists also have lots of defense, single target damage, as well as more utility type spells. As an earth elementalist using armor of earth and kinetic armor, I can get my armor rating up to around 200. Throw in ward against melee, and I'm downright unhittable. Hit the opponent with some of the nice earth area affect skills, maybe an obsidian flame and you have some nice defence and offense together. I definitely don't think elementalists suck. Maybe some of their spells are better suited to pve, but hey mesmers are more suited to pvp then pve, so what's the difference? The people who play elementalists and are really good at them will be able to manage with them in pve as well as pvp. Elementalists don't suck, they just might not be as outright dominant in pvp as some classes like mesmers, but they have their options!

Ensign · Jun 11, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

Echo, Meteor Storm!

My experience with that template is that it's unplayably bad in all but a few circumstances, namely Fissure of Woe where you want the knockdowns on monk mobs. This is made worse by how terrible people are at using the template - most of them cast the second Meteor Shower immediately, overlapping and wasting some of the knockdowns of the second Shower. Against the mobs where the Shower is actually effective, the damage each Meteor deals isn't very significant.

Peace,
-CxE

Crazyvietguy · Jun 11, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

My experience with that template is that it's unplayably bad in all but a few circumstances, namely Fissure of Woe where you want the knockdowns on monk mobs. This is made worse by how terrible people are at using the template - most of them cast the second Meteor Shower immediately, overlapping and wasting some of the knockdowns of the second Shower. Against the mobs where the Shower is actually effective, the damage each Meteor deals isn't very significant.

Pretty much covered it there, Eles are not the primary damage dealers now, that has been taken over by Sins, Rits, Rang, Necs. AOE patch killed them off, now i expect my ele to either be a ward, nuker (Knockdown, with constant damage, should knockdown for the entire duration of the fight) or blind/hexer (water). They have not become the dominant force of damage they used to be. Sure the next person who will post will swear that they are excellent source of damage. Im not denying you of that, im saying that the most effective Ele's (PvE) are ones who can keep a constant effect going.

Ensign · Jun 11, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyvietguy

AOE patch killed them off

You know, I keep seeing people say this but I can't agree with it. What's the difference between a pre-patch fire elementalist and a post patch one? Firestorm. Fireball wasn't changed, Rodgort's wasn't affected either, people still use Meteor Shower and that doesn't really cause AoE fear for whatever reason. A typical fire ele template only changed one skill, Firestorm.

Can anyone tell me with a straight face, that the difference between fire elementalists being awesome and being undesirable is that Firestorm?

My theory on the matter is that fire elementalists have never been terribly good damage dealers, but everyone assumed they were, because, hey, fire magic! AoE! You know the drill. But then those DoT-AoEs made enemies scatter, and people started looking for alternatives, discovering Barrage and Spiteful and the like. Templates that had existed before, but were always passed up for the 'fire nuker'. Were they worse than the old fire guys? Not by a longshot. But 'everyone' knew that fire nukers were the best AoE characters, making those other templates afterthoughts. If you had a fire nuker and a Spiteful guy, the team would give the fire nuker compliments whenever Spiteful ravaged a mob. Not until firestorm got that nerf (apparently destroying the profession in the process) did those other characters start to be recognized for how effective they were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyvietguy

Sure the next person who will post will swear that they are excellent source of damage.

That person has probably been playing his elementalist to exclusion since day one and loves him to death. To that guy's credit, fire does have pretty effects that make numbers pop up, but he really doesn't have any idea what's going on. My first PvE character was an elementalist. It was a decent enough character for blasting things and directing henchies and completing the game. Later, I rolled a necromancer. Let me tell you that you have no idea how bad elementalists are at killing things until you've played a necromancer. You can feel the difference in the power of your skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyvietguy

im saying that the most effective Ele's (PvE) are ones who can keep a constant effect going.

Eles are perfectly good utility guys in PvE, with some AoE power. I think they're one of the best characters for ordering henchies around, while dropping wards, blinding or weakening key mobs, chasing things around with AoE, knockdowns, and a bit of AoE on choice mobs. Plus you get good use of a secondary, to pump Heal Party and spot heals, or apply the right mes effects to beat a particular mob. Basically it's a nice toolbox to compliment what you know the henchies are going to do. It's a far cry from a nuker, but it's pretty effective in its own right.

Peace,
-CxE