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May 10, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20
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#121 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Guild: Lievs Death Squad [LDS]
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Quote:
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May 10, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23
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#122 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Texas
Guild: There Is No Cow Level [cow]
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May 10, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32
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#123 | |||
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Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Quote:
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Yes not all of ele skills are utter crap, but when it comes down to comparing to other classes eles are outclassed by far. And that is PvP. In PvE you take away meteor shover and eles are dead. There is no other reason to accept them into your group ever. Quote:
Last edited by Ira Blinks; May 10, 2006 at 06:34 PM // 18:34.. |
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May 10, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55
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#124 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: Shadow Nation [SN]
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Removal of Exhaustion is the only thing that I can consider ANet doing... but I don't see this happening.
Ele's are a utility class in PvP and beyond Meteor Shower in PvE they are a utility class. I use a E/Mo for farming Minotaurs and the much slimmer Griffons, but almost any build would work for that. Elementalists were my favorite class, but they really have dropped to a Utility class in PvP. I honestly think that people allow Ward Quakers into their groups is out of respect for what Ele's used to be or perhaps out of pity. Elementalists in PvP are better at spamming a few spells (Blinding Flash and Heal Party) and tapping the key to assist a warrior spike, snaring, and thats about it. Elementalists do not do more damage than a warrior... warriors do Pressure Spiking, while at most an Elementalist can do is a Spike. And honestly, a Monk has no problems in rendering the Elementalist spike not a problem with RoF. The Warrior is constantly inflicting damage and able to spike every 10 seconds. In PvE the Elementalist is 2nd choice now to Rangers and SS/Echo... a far second choice. Normally, there is still one elementalist in a group, but thats mainly there for the obligatory meteor swarm when all those mobs get all snarled together. Anyways, the Elementalist does have uses, I think most people here will admit that in varying degrees, they just are NOT for spiking or nuking or doing much damage in PvP, in PvE they are still are somewhat useful, but are not the walking artillery pieces they once were. Read Ensigns thread... its pretty straight forward and explains the MATHEMATICs behind the arguments posted here. I once believed in Elementalist spiking, but now I know better, the matter is about math. Most GOOD players can come up with a build for their class, I can come up with some that don't make the Elementalist like the Dodo bird and dinosaurs, but there is little use for them as DAMAGE dealers in PvP, in PvE they still have a bit of a hand-hold, one foot still in the grave and the other is slipping, but they are still not useless there. In PvP, you have to except that your Ele is not a Spiking, Damage Dealing machine. |
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May 10, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56
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#125 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Mar 2006
Guild: Chaos Godds
Profession: W/Mo
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Ive read up to page 5 and was sick and tired of people ragging on both warriors and elementalists, elementalists especially... First off how the hell do warriors do more damage then eles plz explain... As some1 has already said warriors need to run up charge up addren to be effective. An air spike doing a constant line of air magic with blinding flash completely annehilates a warrior in seconds and yes i have done 1v1 with my friends warrior and hes tryed to counter me many times and he cant do it... And who ever said(not looking for the quote) that warders are for warriors... Hhaha ya what about ward against eles? Ever hear about machine gun mesmer builds air spiking any of those ? Without it your dead! Without warder for warriors ya its gonna be harder but you have a much much much better chance to fight off tons of warriors then tons of air spikers doing 300 damage in seconds each.... I have a warrior and its an axe sword and hammer warrior with every skill in the game factions included all the best stuff and i cant hit anywhere near fire and air elementalists. The fact is Elementalists can hit for MUCH HIGHER dps then warriors completely.
On the PVE side I made a nuker as my first character and was great as pve for groups.I made a air spiker as a PVE and i could solo any mission except some in the fire islands with henchies...When I made my warrior nobody wanted me i couldnt do it with henchies so it took about 3 times longer to do everything with him.. The only part i could say warriors are better at pve is running which eles can do as a water ele pretty easily(except droks run never attempted). But to conclude I think warriors are good and elementalists but some of the things said in this topic are outragous there is no warrior that can do more damage then my elementalist without starting us both of next to eachother and taking away blinding flash so GG to all u newbs who said that Anytime u would like to see it Msg me... IGN Warrior Godd or Elemental Godd(second account) Id be glad to show u... |
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May 10, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19
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#126 | |||||||||
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: Shadow Nation [SN]
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Quote:
Please read Ensign's thread... It's pretty mathematically sound. Quote:
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May 10, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29
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#127 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England
Guild: Archangels Revenence
Profession: E/R
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How about we all take a deep breath.
In... And out... In... And out... And now that we're all that tiny bit calmer, and that vein in your forehead that was just about to pop had time to slow down and catch up, I'll introduce possibly not a new concept, but one that might help. Let's stop whining and arguing. Just decide inside your head whether or not you actually want a good elementalist then come on over to this thread here. We can see if we can sort out our problems instead of shouting about them and letting A-net sort it out. I think I would be more likely to help someone if they'd already done half the job and made the other half way easier. So come over to the thread I linked to and see if you can make a difference. Or not. |
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May 10, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46
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#128 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Mar 2006
Profession: Me/
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I'm tired of seeing all these elementalist threads harping the same thing over and over again. You can't convince everyone and it gets repetitive.
These views of elementalists dealing more damage than warriors are just reinforced by the way warriors and elementalists play in pve. Most warriors are setup to be defensive and elementalists to be pure damage, so obviously elementalists are going to do more damage there. Contrary to what most pver's think, a warrior only needs 2 defensive skills to tank effectively. A simple warrior build that deals a good amount of damage and tanks well: Axe 12+1+3 / 12+1+1 Strength 8+1 Tactics 10+1 Penetrating Blow Executioner's Axe Triple Chop (Elite) Cyclone Axe Tiger's stance/Distracting blow/Plague touch Watch Yourself Healing Signet Rez This build will mow down mobs quickly and easily. Another thing is that it easily stacks with multiple warriors because it doesnt cause any conditions. |
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May 11, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55
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#129 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Guild: Lievs Death Squad [LDS]
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1. Energy Storage
Its not even close to giving eles infinite energy, it just means you can cast 1 2 more of there stupidly high energy cost spells before running out. 2. Overpowered Spells Your just asking to make 1 or 2 spells overpowered so they instantly get used in spike builds, then get nerfed, whats the point? 3. Better wand damage Never heard of Conjure Flame then? 4. Better Armour Never heard to the earth skill set? (or water for that matter) 5. Shorter Cast Times We all know these suck, you can't exactly make everything cast in 2-3 seconds though. Having completed the droks run myself using my ele, i'd say they can still do it. In comparison to the warrior been able to do it, they suck big time... Please explain to me Skate how your suddenly more awesome than a warrior because your packing the single best Warrior hate/shutdown on the game? Come say hello to my mesmer, she'll gladly kick the shit out of your ele. Same concept. |
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May 11, 2006, 02:04 AM // 02:04
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#130 |
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Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
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one thing i agree on is that wands and staves need better customization bonus. Maybe +energy or +armor or -10% recharge time on related attribute spells... anything but damage.
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May 11, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45
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#131 | |
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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Quote:
It's actually this mechanic that makes the elementalist such a key character in GvG. The process goes something like this - the vast, vast majority of characters that can present a threat to your base are physicals - warriors, assassins, and degen/cripple rangers. A specifically designed mesmer or necro could probably work as well, but I haven't seen one of those in months - and they're much, much weaker characters as well. A warrior just needs a healing signet to knock out a lot of archers, after all. An ele with Blinding Flash is thus ideal for holding off a warrior trying to take out NPCs. He can hold off a physical for quite a long time with Blinding Flash, which is an uneven trade - physicals are valued more highly than support casters in split math. To make the trade even more lopsided, the flasher can usually run the flag partway through the base, and can still assist the main fight with Heal Parties on many maps. In the builds where you don't have a blinding flasher, you're basically guaranteed to see a necromancer with a stack of physical hate, that can hold off or potentially even threaten a physical attacker. It should be noted, however, that the elementalist is incapable of threatening that warrior on his own. If he's good he can lure a bad warrior into more NPCs than he can handle and hold him there. His presence is simply a stall tactic, of making an unfavorable trade to keep the warrior away. In a straight fight between an ele and a warrior (assuming both are reasonably specced for dueling), the ele can survive around three minutes if he focuses entirely upon survival. If the ele cannot kite effectively, for example it's a situation where he has to push a flag, the ele has a life expectancy of around a minute if he's played very carefully. The ele never threatens the warrior directly - he can't kill through Healing Signet - and direct confrontation results in a dead elementalist. That's using realistic characters, of course. If one wanted, they could make, say, a 200 armor stone daggers turret that would be a pain in the ass for a warrior to kill. However, that character cannot accomplish important 1v1 objectives in GvG - namely, threaten a base, make a favorable trade on someone threatening your base, harass a flagger, or push a flag - so his utility is virtually non-existant. Thankfully, realistic dueling scenarios aren't about fighting straight up, but about accomplishing proactive goals that force the duelists to be able to actually do something, not just be a hard rock to crack. Peace, -CxE
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. |
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May 11, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53
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#132 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Guild: Lievs Death Squad [LDS]
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I can remember seeing quite a high ranked GvG (the higher ranked ones lost) where the winners had an E/Mo standing to 1 side during pretty much all of the push into there base. Occassionally the opponents would try and run the flag, usually with a ranger, so the E/Mo would just spam Heal Party for a bit, then cast Ice Spikes and Ice Prison on them while a warrior came in to kill em. In the end what lost them the game was because the flag runner had to abadon the flag half way to the stand, so the E/Mo jsut stood there spamming Party waiting for someone to try and grab it.
Not a single high damage spell in sight, as Ensign said, the multi-role E/Mo is alot better than a nuker who will be out of energy shortly becoming effectively useless. |
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May 12, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14
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#133 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: ALOA
Profession: E/Me
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is it just me, or does the 'on fire' condition seem to not even effect whoever has it on? it does a little damage and a little health regen, but overall seems to be a nonfactor, especially once you reach higher level areas.
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May 12, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42
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#134 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Mehtani Keys
Guild: The Extraordinary Revolution [ReVo]
Profession: P/W
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Elementalists are ok, they don't need any kind of boosts and removing Exhaustion would be Overpowered. Just my 2 cents...
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May 12, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52
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#135 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: ALOA
Profession: E/Me
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i almost never have an exhaustion problem. its the damn recharge and casting time that kill me. exhaustion isnt really that big of a deal. if you are about halfway down on energy and then cast an exhausting spell, you're never going to notice it unless you keep casting more, and i never have more than 1 or 2 in my skills bar, and they have long enough recharge times that it doesnt become an issue. theres really nothing wrong with exhaustion
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May 12, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08
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#136 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Oct 2005
Guild: Kinetic Fusion [kF]
Profession: Me/
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Ele's have changed, they are not the dmg class Anet invisioned them to be, they a minor support class, that is all.
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May 12, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27
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#137 |
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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As some other people have mentioned, exhaustion is a great mechanic, when it's used as a limiter on skills like Gale or Obsidian Flame. It lets them price those skills much more aggressively than they normally would because exhaustion will contain their use.
The problem with the mechanic is that very few skills with it are well designed. Usually it's just randomly tacked on to an insanely expensive skill for no apparent reason. Those skills make exhaustion feel like yet another unneccessary limit that should be removed. In many cases that's true, and exhaustion should be taken off - but that doesn't make exhaustion bad in the places where it is a great limiter. Basically pulling exhaustion off of crap like Mind Burn of Double Dragon would be welcome, but pulling it off of Gale or Obsidian Flame would be ridiculous. Peace, -CxE
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. Last edited by Ensign; May 12, 2006 at 04:36 AM // 04:36.. |
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May 14, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33
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#138 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: Sentients of Shadow (noir)
Profession: Me/E
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2nd opinion on elementalists.
I see alot of debate on the age old topic of an elementalists usefulness in the game. Now I have been playing an elementalists for a long time (800 hrs.) and personally I enjoy the class very much and find it useful in all sorts of situations, even after the release of factions.
Now yes I do believe us eles got majorly shanked on the new skills but then again we did get some new things that help out quite a bit. Right now I play an elementalist/monk and I'll start off by saying if you an elementalist and dying alot its probably because your standing in the wrong place of the battlefield. Yes it is aggrivated to have a mesmer on you tail and be shut down most of the match, but hey guess what a mesmer can shut down ANY class including warriors (soothing images, empathy, ineptitude anyone) so this isn't a huge issue in my opinion. From my personal experience playing PvP and PvE as an ele, know that eles are an awesome support class due to the amount of energy they can pack and energy management skills that let them outlast any other healer in a fight. As an Ele I play from the back line and when I get rushed I usually tack on a blinding flash and then envenerating charge to cover up the blind so it lasts the whole duration. I usually bring frozen burst or deep freeze to slow or snare enemy warriors before they reach me. Yes I run from warriors, but this is no shame in my opinion. If your an ele trying to stand next to a warrior the whole fight without wards or some kind of defensive skill your playing stupid. Staying alive is what matters. As for party support, with ether prodigy I can easily stand under a bridge or far corner and constantly spam heal party to give my team a little boost to outlast the enemy. Now your thinking the heal is pathetic but every three seconds that 50+ hp makes a huge difference. Think about being a monk and watching your parties whole life bar dwindle down all at the same time? I buy my monks time to micromange and heal the party and they all appreciate it. I also spam the awesome new skill extinguish to pretty much keep the entire party clean the whole match. Tainted flesh? Gone in one click. I can also use lightining orb to spike a weak target or also setup a ward of stability to screw with shockwars and KD dependant builds. Usually in a match I blind the ranger and Ev. charge the wars. It's usually the rangers that get your from long distances as you play from the back row. Anyway I don't think eles are a subpar class I just think there is a specific way to play them with skill just like other classes. They can be vital to a good party and you still see top guilds bring 1 or 2 eles into every battle as a flag runner or party supporter. Eles are also the one class able to spread the most damage over a group in PvE and meteor shower I use mainly to interrupt annoying self healing bosses. Anyway this is my 2 cents, if you all still think eles are completely useless PM me in game and I'll prove you wrong on the field. ~IGN Mystine Lunacresia |
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May 14, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56
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#139 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Mar 2006
Guild: Aequitas Deis
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i LOVE my ele, even if i dont ise MS, all the other skills are so good. fire ball... deal damage to foe at distance and all near to him foes.. and thats a "basic" nothing fancy skill... give u an idea of potential.
to be good ele u dont even NEED AoE spels, u can take down mobs fast and easy withiout meteot shower |
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May 14, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50
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#140 |
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Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
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care to join FoW run so you can show me how to do that?
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