Curse

Dr Strangelove · May 04, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

2. I simply dont understand why you cant get it into your head that even when a warrior cant use his skills he will do more DAMAGE than an elementalist using his skills at FULL efficiency.

3. PVE DOESNT COUNT. High End GVG is what matters and they all run warriors for killing when they are not playing a pure spike build.

Sam

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal where the only thing to do in Guild Wars is guild vs. guild? There's a whole other game out there that you seem to have forgotten. Here comes the math....

A rodgort's invocation hitting one 60 AL target will do 127 damage + 3 seconds burning = 48 = 175 damage total. Not too shabby, but clearly a warrior can do much more with much less energy. However, rodgort's has a rather large AoE. I usually hit around three targets, but in the right situation you can hit 8-10. Multiply that 175 by the conservative estimate (3) and you get 525 damage... more than anyone else can possibly hope to deal in one shot. Multiply by the really good shot (8) that seems to happen quite regularly in 12v12 or against afflicted you get a monster 1400 damage spike. This is repeated every 15 seconds or earlier depending on your skillbar.

Are you now getting the point that ele's are not meant to do damage to one target effectively, they soften up the enemy for the warriors to knock them over? This doesn't just apply to PvE, which apparently doesn't matter despite hundreds of thousands of players playing it. I guess they missed the memo. An AoE ele works wonders in 12v12 matches. A well timed AoE massacres those minion masters and makes people run in panic from the control points. Hopefully you've noticed AoE making a comeback in HoH for altar matches, but I guess that doesn't matter either. Crap, this game really sucks, there's only one thing to do in it.

Some other high damage elementalist skills that do more damage than your precious warrior:
Earthquake: 127 damage with nearby AoE and mass knockdown, which can be chained with several things, like aftershock, brambles, earthbind, ash blast and bed of coals to name a few. 15 second recharge.
Unsteady ground: 37 damage per second for 5 seconds with nearby AoE. If you think people move out of these things, you're sadly mistaken. 5 seconds is pretty short, it generally knocks people down who don't see it coming, and the nearby AoE means you have to move farther. I usually get around 4 seconds of damage. 4 * 37 = 148 * conservative estimate of 3 targets = 444 plus a knockdown or two and AoE panic (A good thing when used correctly, especially on real people) 20 second recharge
Eruption: same damage as unsteady ground, longer recharge. The blind effect kind of sucks, but the large AoE makes this actually a good spell.
Chain lightning: 90 damage, usually hits 3 targets, 25% armor penetration. on 60 AL that's -15 armor = 18.75% damage bonus = 107 damage * 3 targets = 321 damage. 10 second recharge.

I'm not even going to mention the PBAoE spells which actually do insane damage even if they are suicide to use. Or have you not seen flame burst making a comeback in HoH in wards? Oops, sorry I forgot only GvG matters.

These are just damage spells too, not counting the many other things ele's can do to make life interesting for the opposition

EDIT: removed the giant screenie

Zhou Feng · May 04, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Still eles do have a lot of spells that cause exhaustion and cost a lot of energy. I say lower some of the energy costs on some of the spells and perhaps increase the rate at which Exhaustion is recovered from 1 energy per two seconds.

Or make a new skill for Energy Storage:

Elementalists' Focus
Stance 10e 30rt
For the next 5-15 seconds you recover Exaustion at 1 energy per second.

Tobias Funke · May 04, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Shadow Step + Star burst.

Star burst is an amazing spell. It works like chain lightning except it doesn't cause exhaustion, has an 3/4 second casting time, an 8 second recharge time and there's no limit on the number on enemies it hits. Used with shadow step (it's a touch spell) and it's truely deadly. I've taken done entire groups of enemy casters with it and inferno alone at the cost of 30-40 energy.

If nothing else this makes elementalists more than useless.

Zhou Feng · May 04, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

What seems to "hold down" elementalists is Exhaustion. However without Exhaustion Elementalists will be "overpowered" with their incredible amount of energy to casts spells. However I believe this is offset by the fact that many of their best spells already cost quite a bit.

I still think they should make an ability that allows faster recovery from exhaustion and increase the rate at which normal exhaustion is recovered from.

It would also help to have faster recharge times and casting times for some of their spells so they can have a few low cost spammable mid damage spells with the higher slower casting ones being greater damage then what a Warrior could/would deal.

jgortner · May 04, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Dude, go read your skills and become a more balanced player.

They buffed eles so much that Me/E's can even do enough damage to spike.

kazujin · May 04, 2006, 07:40 PM // 19:40

I think some people are extremely one dimensional when it comes to the role of the Elementalist.

Mordakai · May 04, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Strangelove - please edit your post, it's screwing up the page.

I'm going to try an Ele in Factions. I don't care if they do suck, or if it costs the slot I was going to use for a Ranger, I like the the way she looks and am going to use her to pick up my Factions Mesmer skills to save some cash.

I just hope I'll be able to find some groups with a E/Me.

Ira Blinks · May 04, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

iirc mursaat bosses (as well as other 28lvl mobs) will take as low as 21 points of damage from ele "nukes". It is kinda extreme, but illustrates point nicely.
lvl24 warriors (unless using frenzy) take exactly half damage from ele spells. lvl24 casters take ~70-80% of declared damage. lvl24 rangers take as low as 30%.

Dr Strangelove · May 04, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Congrats Dr. Strangelove. You can hit a lvl20 mob in PvE with a high level Rodgorts Invocation.

Now please, stop trying to show off and go attack some of the actual high level monsters. How about Willia the Unpleasant, Cairn the Destroyer, or any of the other Mursaat/Jade bosses on Abaddons Mouth. I'm sure they'd welcome your Rodgorts Invocation with there 180 AL and reduced burning duration. Infact they love it so much, my Monk can out damage you in a single 'Holy Strike'.

Also have you never heard of these spells and skills called interrupts? Any mesmer or ranger watching you with even 1 ready interrupt spell is just going to laugh at your awesome 3 second cast time on Rodgorts. They'd laugh so much they'd wait until the last 0.5seconds of casting and interrupt you. What good is your awesome AoE now? Playing my ele in the tombs a long time ago i was interrupted 8 casts on the trot (including 1/4 cast time spells), even the monks were giving out more DPS than my ele was.

I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm well aware that rodgorts isn't the best spell in the game and that I would need to go a different way to take out a mursaat boss. However, my point was never that ele's were well equipped to take out single targets like a mursaat boss. I was making a point about how ele damage spikes are actually quite large, just not concentrated on a single person. When fighting in the ring of fire, I generally go earth using obsidian flame, earthquake and wards, they tend to be more effective in that area. Does that mean that build is somehow better? Nope, it's just more suited to that area.

As for being interrupted, well, everything in the game has a counter to it. Do you hear people saying orison of healing is a terrible spell because it can be interrupted? Do warriors suck because they can be blinded? No, you simply have to deal with the counter.

You could come up with an effective counter to every skill in the game because this is a balanced game. A good player knows which skills to use to press their advantage For instance, I'm sick of hearing your MANTRA about how you can be interrupted. I'm RESOLVED to find a solution to it. You know, that little glyph of concentration isn't just there to look pretty either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhou Feng

The thing is my good Dr. Eles nuking is not as efficient as say a Warrior who without using skills can deliver more amage and while using skills even more.

Yes we are aware that the Eles has some AoE but while they recharge that they become rather limiting.

Glyphs of Concentration is there for a reason although most of the time it just makes spells even more costly then they where.

I think my math was pretty clear up there that an ele is in fact doing more damage, just not to a single target. Yes, most of the time glyph is an energy hole, but so is mend ailment for a wammo when there's no blindness to get rid of. What's better is that by shrugging off all those interrupts, you just made whoever was trying to interrupt you waste their time and energy, usually more than was used for the glyph.

For recharges, I said in an earlier post that you'd have to be a bit on the slow side to pack a large number of 30 second+ recharge spells. They're just too slow to use effectively. However, my trusty rodgort's and fireball have relatively low casting times. (7 secs for fireball, 15 for rodgort's) When using those two, I usually run under serpent's quickness, so that's a 5 second recharge for fireball and a 10 second recharge for rodgort's. Throw one or two more spells in there, and you can spam high damage spells indefinitely.

As for efficiency, yes a warrior can do more damage with 5 energy than an ele. Fortunately, an ele has a heck of a lot more than 20-27 energy to play with, double the natural recharge, and many more energy management options. A ranger can sure as heck use warrior attack skills more efficiently thanks to expertise, but that doesn't mean a ranger is better at melee combat.

Zhou Feng · May 04, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

The thing is my good Dr. Eles nuking is not as efficient as say a Warrior who without using skills can deliver more amage and while using skills even more.

Yes we are aware that the Eles has some AoE but while they recharge that they become rather limiting.

Glyphs of Concentration is there for a reason although most of the time it just makes spells even more costly then they where.

Evilsod · May 04, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

*sigh* you mean you actually use Mantra of Resolve now they made it useless? Ever since they almost doubled the energy penalty on that skill i have never used it. Its not as if it helps anyway, so what, i don't get interrupted... i still lose 26 energy from Power Leak + the stupidly high penalty from MoR. Your not exactly any better off.

Without using Ether Prodigy your almost useless in a long battle. I'm not gonna deny my ele can't out damage a warrior, but only in the right situation. When it comes to the 2 monk 2 mesmer groups around the Forge in FoW, my ele can wipe them off the face of the earth in about 10 seconds. The moment they spread out, that 25 energy i just spent on Rodgorts isn't worth a penny. That just leaves it to the warrior to cause damage, of course against Shadow 'superhealer' Monks they can out heal any damage caused by single targets that don't have either knockdown or some good interrupts.

Why do you think Eles do nothing but spam Heal Party and become Flash Turrets or Snarers in top level GvGs. They have no other use. Ether Prodigy (been the best self energy manage in the game) is perfect for staying out of harms way and doing what you need to help the team.

ghezbora · May 04, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Wow, the same conversation we've had here a million times.

PvE Guy 1: My ele sucks now!
PvP Guy 1: Your ele has sucked for a long time
PvE Guy 2: No way, eles own!
PvP Guy 2: Eles are good for blinding and spamming heal party and not much else
PvE Guy 2: I outdamage your warrior by hitting 12 targets at once
PvP Guy 1: 12 targets at once? Someone had too much magic fairy dust.

Yes, your ele does work in PvE. So what? Everything works in PvE. PvE is easy. It can work great in PvE and still suck. The real measure of quality is 'does this technique hold up when the enemies are actually hard?' AoE works great when the enemies all bunch up around your gear-holding Wammo... don't work so good against real people do they?

Now that we've established AoE sucks for doing damage against smart enemies, what are eles good for?

Ether Prodigy is far and away the best energy management skill in the game. Energy Storage, however, is the worst primary attribute of any profession. It provides ZERO benefit after the first 30 seconds when you burn through the extra 30 energy you got. If you're not using Ether Prodigy, there is NO REASON to use an ele.

Thus, the ele is good for spamming the hell out of stuff, and that's it.

Markaedw · May 04, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

You are all right, fire ele (nuking) only works on henchies, that why I use an electric/water combo. Lead them with a water hex then a lightning attack, BAM a lot of dead bodies, no AoE reaction.

Tien ak · May 04, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

I havn't read the whole way threw this Thread as I just wanted to say that it doesn't matter what class you got there is allways going to be one or two classes that can kick you ass thats why you can have a secondary so you can use what your enimes use on them a E/me is a fantastic class not only can he/she have round about 80-100 energy but they can shut down other classes at the same time...you getting interupted well as a Ranger I know I know my weakness...cover...an elementist can cast certain spells threw anything so if your getting interupted find cover. though yes some maps don't have cover, so in that case use quick spells.

As most people in PVP and PVE use the same tactics go against it everyone will instaltly go for either a warrior or a monk so let your warriors keep busy attacking monks and Warriors go for the rangers or mesmers or necromancers. The nemies of elementist is the ranger as he doesn't use addreline skills to fuel his interupt spell, as long as a Elemetist has some good stop attacking skills their fine.

As for warriors well I have the dreaded W/mo but if you actually play as one your whole perspective on how 'uber' warriors are will change were not that powerfull we do have some reall good attack spells but three spells can make a Warrior useless these are A necromancer, Mesmer and a monk...in fact a monk has a very powerfull spell which im very surpised I never ever see in pvp.

Basicly take GW classes all have a arch nemeis that can absolutly woop em but then your arch nemeis has a weakness and so does he...and so on so its balanced just read the skills and think of tactic...I bet no one here can come up with a class build that is so powerfull that no one can beat it come on try me

BahamutKaiser · May 04, 2006, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal where the only thing to do in Guild Wars is guild vs. guild? There's a whole other game out there that you seem to have forgotten. Here comes the math....

A rodgort's invocation hitting one 60 AL target will do 127 damage + 3 seconds burning = 48 = 175 damage total. Not too shabby, but clearly a warrior can do much more with much less energy. However, rodgort's has a rather large AoE. I usually hit around three targets, but in the right situation you can hit 8-10. Multiply that 175 by the conservative estimate (3) and you get 525 damage... more than anyone else can possibly hope to deal in one shot. Multiply by the really good shot (8) that seems to happen quite regularly in 12v12 or against afflicted you get a monster 1400 damage spike. This is repeated every 15 seconds or earlier depending on your skillbar.

Are you now getting the point that ele's are not meant to do damage to one target effectively, they soften up the enemy for the warriors to knock them over? This doesn't just apply to PvE, which apparently doesn't matter despite hundreds of thousands of players playing it. I guess they missed the memo. An AoE ele works wonders in 12v12 matches. A well timed AoE massacres those minion masters and makes people run in panic from the control points. Hopefully you've noticed AoE making a comeback in HoH for altar matches, but I guess that doesn't matter either. Crap, this game really sucks, there's only one thing to do in it.

Some other high damage elementalist skills that do more damage than your precious warrior:
Earthquake: 127 damage with nearby AoE and mass knockdown, which can be chained with several things, like aftershock, brambles, earthbind, ash blast and bed of coals to name a few. 15 second recharge.
Unsteady ground: 37 damage per second for 5 seconds with nearby AoE. If you think people move out of these things, you're sadly mistaken. 5 seconds is pretty short, it generally knocks people down who don't see it coming, and the nearby AoE means you have to move farther. I usually get around 4 seconds of damage. 4 * 37 = 148 * conservative estimate of 3 targets = 444 plus a knockdown or two and AoE panic (A good thing when used correctly, especially on real people) 20 second recharge
Eruption: same damage as unsteady ground, longer recharge. The blind effect kind of sucks, but the large AoE makes this actually a good spell.
Chain lightning: 90 damage, usually hits 3 targets, 25% armor penetration. on 60 AL that's -15 armor = 18.75% damage bonus = 107 damage * 3 targets = 321 damage. 10 second recharge.

I'm not even going to mention the PBAoE spells which actually do insane damage even if they are suicide to use. Or have you not seen flame burst making a comeback in HoH in wards? Oops, sorry I forgot only GvG matters.

These are just damage spells too, not counting the many other things ele's can do to make life interesting for the opposition

EDIT: removed the giant screenie

I realy don't see how you got those figures, on equal level PvP characters, even with minimal armor against elements, the damage is shaved off about 10 or 20 damage, but against Warriors and Rangers, it is easily half. An elementist can certainly spike, or deal damage on a group, but when it gets shutdown, it dies, plain and simple, a warrior that gets shut down just doesn't deal damage, he still takes alot to kill, and will likely outlast your shutdown. Even with proper healing support, an elementist can be pummeled by almost any class, wile warrior can often be built to take blows from up too 3 enemies and survive without support, I see my Guild Leader do it all the time.

Since all ranged units can easily space their possitions to avoid AoE only Warriors and Assassins are prime targets for grouping attacks, and even with the largest AoE attacks, if an enemy recognizes you cast, 3 seconds is plenty long enough to avoid it. Then you add the fact that your spending half you skill bar for mediocre healing and energy management, wile an armored class can survive longer on just his armor and 2 healing skills, wile putting out attacks for much less cost, and often more damage.

Elementist can deal great damage in certain situations, but those situations are not always present, and often easy to avoid. Any other class can work effectively under much less situational concern, They are going to deal great damage no matter what kind of enemy they fight, and are going to survive reasonably as well.

With the upshoot in Assassin players Elementist is likely to have a large increase in vulnerable targets, which group together, and don't have great armor. But that very same class can put down an unguarded foe in a matter of seconds, Elementist being one of the easiest to break. If common PvP battles included small platoons of support units which could be easily felled, an elementist would be a great group suppression character, but since not everything comes in groups, and groups can avoid the AoE expecially during the cast time neccessary, even easier to avoid DoT effects, situations are often not in favor of elementist. To top that off, so many good elementist skills have exhaustion, which force the elementist to have high points in energy storage just to operate with, and prevent him from spamming these skills effectively.

With all the situational weaknesses to Elementist, they should not be vulnerable to so much enchantment stripping. As well, there needs to be more effective bonuses to skills which cause exhaustion. Furthermore, Exhaustion should be less determental to Elementist if he has high points in energy storage, reducing the amount of exhaustion inflicted by one energy for every 3 or 4 points in energy storage, they could reduce the effect of exhaustion so these skills arn't so costly to elementist, outside of exhaustion maintenance, Expertise is unquestionably better then Energy Storage, the exhaustion maintenance should be improved.

Energy management skills are neccessary tools for elementist to use his spells continously throughout battle, Attunments shouldn't be removable, and Glyphs like Lesser Energy should recharge faster, an elementist can easily be countered with interrupts and disables, no matter how good his energy management is, he doesn't need to be open to enchantment stripping.

Markaedw · May 05, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien ak

Basicly take GW classes all have a arch nemeis that can absolutly woop em but then your arch nemeis has a weakness and so does he...and so on so its balanced just read the skills and think of tactic...I bet no one here can come up with a class build that is so powerfull that no one can beat it come on try me

Actually you got a point, every ranger armor has a protection against ele damage, and a ranger interupter can take an ele down quick, but an ele can wipe out a necro army just as quick. A couple of necro curse and bye-bye iway. A mes can take away energy, but a warrior with adreneline doesn't care, when his blade hits, that mes is dead. The last thing my monk wants to see is a mes on the field. That ranger can't protect himslef against a well placed protection or smite no matter where he is.

Kern Wolf · May 05, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Bottom Line (IMO) is this:

It's NEVER the profession that sucks. It's the person playing it.
I'll grant that some combinations arent the greatest, but, as in anything, a person has to put in the time and effort to get good at something.
For the person who started this thread: Ele's dont kinda suck. The person(s) playing it might have, but not the profession....

Ira Blinks · May 05, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Seems most logical how people who say that eles are fine have warrior or ranger as their primary character... I mean really eles have to be fine if you can own then by selecting target and hittin spacebar, right?

Also whats the deal with mocking PvE? I play PvE only (gave up on worthless state of pvp ballance long ago) and I used to enjoy it back when I didnt have to beg people to take me in their group. If someone here doesnt play PvE he can go and mind his own business, because retarded arguments like "pve doesnt matter" going to get thrown back in their face.

Kai Nui · May 05, 2006, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie

Every profession is as good as the player AND no profession is higher in food chain than other. Period.

Say whatever you want to counter this but GW professions are balanced.

That is probably the most ignorant thing I have ever seen. If you seriously think that the classes are balanced, you need to get your head checked immediately. Anet is constantly nerfing FOTMs and builds that exploit how the game works. If the game was balanced, then there would be only one class. It's impossible to balance a game like this, but they do thier best.

pah01 · May 05, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangeglove

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal where the only thing to do in Guild Wars is guild vs. guild? There's a whole other game out there that you seem to have forgotten. Here comes the math....

No you still dont understand that stupidity of the enemy team / AI standing in your Nukes DOES NOT makes elementalists deal more damage than a warrior.

Mentioning Altar maps as a place in HA where fire eles are viable is irrelevent because they have to SAVE their skills for opportune times where they will have more effect.

Mentioning Random disorganised 12v12 matches is irrelevent because in reality GW is a competetive game about skill and not nuking random fools too stupid to see that they are being all killed by the same shower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghezbora

PvE Guy 1: My ele sucks now!
PvP Guy 1: Your ele has sucked for a long time
PvE Guy 2: No way, eles own!
PvP Guy 2: Eles are good for blinding and spamming heal party and not much else
PvE Guy 2: I outdamage your warrior by hitting 12 targets at once
PvP Guy 1: 12 targets at once? Someone had too much magic fairy dust.

This pretty much sums up any argument.

Here is the master post on this topic.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...y+nuking+sucks

Read the post I linked, then wake up and understand that elementalists suck at dealing damage.

If you dont bother to read Ensign then you will never be smart eneogh to realise how wrong you are.

If you dont Understand Ensign then I am wasting my time.

ELEMENTALISTS SUCK AT DEALING DAMAGE

-----------------------------------------------

Some nice quotes from other parts of the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Guild Wars has one defense class (Monks), one offense class (Warriors), and four utility classes that support your Warriors.

Which is confirmed by you while still not understanding the above fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangeglove

Or have you not seen flame burst making a comeback in HoH in wards? Oops, sorry I forgot only GvG matters.

Wards against what exactly - Hmm warriors...

Sam