Curse

LightningHell · Aug 01, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Of all the posters in this thread, only H2BH has the right idea.

Say it with me: Energy storage is not energy management!

Energy storage doesn't in any way, shape, or form justify the elementalist's overpriced spells. In terms of effect, it's probably the worst primary attribute in the game (tied with strength).

However unlike strength, e-storage has one must have skill (prodigy) which is why people end up speccing it anyway. I'll leave at as an exercise to the reader to figure out why this is broken.

Didn't I also say that?

...

(is sad)

LightningHell · Aug 01, 2006, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Of all the posters in this thread, only H2BH has the right idea.

Say it with me: Energy storage is not energy management!

Energy storage doesn't in any way, shape, or form justify the elementalist's overpriced spells. In terms of effect, it's probably the worst primary attribute in the game (tied with strength).

However unlike strength, e-storage has one must have skill (prodigy) which is why people end up speccing it anyway. I'll leave at as an exercise to the reader to figure out why this is broken.

Didn't I say that?

Prodigy basically negates the non-management of EStorage and makes it somewhat usable as an attribute!

(is sad)

Tainek · Aug 01, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Mesmers Also Have some of the Strongest Energy Management in the game, a mesmer with MoR (16 Insp) Fire Nuke Spells (12 fire) and the rest Fire Magic will have the energy to out damage the Ele simply because he can afford to use them more often

Pick Me · Aug 01, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

Mesmers Also Have some of the Strongest Energy Management in the game, a mesmer with MoR (16 Insp) Fire Nuke Spells (12 fire) and the rest Fire Magic will have the energy to out damage the Ele simply because he can afford to use them more often

Interesting. Lets see... pre-fight, you cast MoR and wait for energy to return at 3 pips. You cast faster with 12lvl fire and at the end of the 20 seconds, you gain what, 28 energy? MoR is not the best energy management spell the Mesmer has. Its a nice enchantment, but still not the best (in my opinion). Mesmers do not have a big pool of energy and they regenerate energy slower than an Elementalist. While we all agree Elementalists do not have great energy regaining skills, it doesn't mean they have none at all.

Lets face it, a mesmer can stop an elementalist with inspiration magic anyway (e-denial, interupt, remove enchantments, etc.). But your point is that Mesmers can make better Elementalists than a primary Elementalist, right? I find that hard to believe.

Elementalists, monks, Ritualists and Necromancers (and Assassins) have the best natural energy regeneration in the game - 4 pips. It may not seem like much, but lets face it, every bit helps. Elementalists can do more damage per spell than any secondary elementalist can. A Mesmer that has a pool of 45 + 30 from MoR is better than an Elementalist with a pool of 80? I see a mesmer with 75 energy in total, compared to an Elementalist with a pool of 80. Mesmers cast faster, but suffer from exhaustion just like anyone else who casts spells that cause exhaustion. And with slower regeneration, elementalists seems to me, like they have the upper hand.

Naturally, you won't see a fire wielding mesmer on the PvP battlefield, similar, you won't see a bow wielding Warrior.

As I read the responses to this thread, it seems to me that people would like to see an increase in energy regeneration either after a certain point in the attributes on Energy Storage or in increments of x in Energy Storage. To me, this would upset the balance of PvP and PvE. Why? For 1, no need for using certain elites (Glyph of Energy, Second Wind, Ether Prodigy, Ether Renewal, etc.). 2, you gain more energy than you lose. Casting time of some spells is 3, you get 5 pips or 6 pips of energy regeneration and by the time the spell is cast you are closer to getting your energy back. 3, becoming a secondary healer, you can heal way more often than a monk can.

I think someone also wanted to have exhaustion removed, either completely, or from some of the higher costing spells. That is why Second Wind and Glyph of Energy are there. It also helps prevent people from casting echoed and archane echoed MS.

To me, the attributes are fine, but I like to see recharge times be a little less.

Pick Me · Aug 01, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

Mesmers Also Have some of the Strongest Energy Management in the game, a mesmer with MoR (16 Insp) Fire Nuke Spells (12 fire) and the rest Fire Magic will have the energy to out damage the Ele simply because he can afford to use them more often

Interesting. Lets see... pre-fight, you cast MoR and wait for energy to return at 3 pips. You cast faster with 12lvl fire and at the end of the 20 seconds, you gain what, 28 energy? MoR is not the best energy management spell the Mesmer has. Its a nice enchantment, but still not the best (in my opinion). Mesmers do not have a big pool of energy and they regenerate energy slower than an Elementalist. While we all agree Elementalists do not have great energy regaining skills, it doesn't mean they have none at all.

Lets face it, a mesmer can stop an elementalist with inspiration magic anyway (e-denial, interupt, remove enchantments, etc.). But your point is that Mesmers can make better Elementalists than a primary Elementalist, right? I find that hard to believe.

Elementalists, monks, Ritualists and Necromancers (and Assassins) have the best natural energy regeneration in the game - 4 pips. It may not seem like much, but lets face it, every bit helps. Elementalists can do more damage per spell than any secondary elementalist can. A Mesmer that has a pool of 45 + 30 from MoR is better than an Elementalist with a pool of 80? I see a mesmer with 75 energy in total, compared to an Elementalist with a pool of 80. Mesmers cast faster, but suffer from exhaustion just like anyone else who casts spells that cause exhaustion. And with slower regeneration, elementalists seems to me, like they have the upper hand.

Naturally, you won't see a fire wielding mesmer on the PvP battlefield, similar, you won't see a bow wielding Warrior.

As I read the responses to this thread, it seems to me that people would like to see an increase in energy regeneration either after a certain point in the attributes on Energy Storage or in increments of x in Energy Storage. To me, this would upset the balance of PvP and PvE. Why? For 1, no need for using certain elites (Glyph of Energy, Second Wind, Ether Prodigy, Ether Renewal, etc.). 2, you gain more energy than you lose. Casting time of some spells is 3, you get 5 pips or 6 pips of energy regeneration and by the time the spell is cast you are closer to getting your energy back. 3, becoming a secondary healer, you can heal way more often than a monk can.

I think someone also wanted to have exhaustion removed, either completely, or from some of the higher costing spells. That is why Second Wind and Glyph of Energy are there. It also helps prevent people from casting echoed and archane echoed MS.

To me, the attributes are fine, but I like to see recharge times be a little less.

Evilsod · Aug 01, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Interesting. Lets see... pre-fight, you cast MoR and wait for energy to return at 3 pips. You cast faster with 12lvl fire and at the end of the 20 seconds, you gain what, 28 energy? MoR is not the best energy management spell the Mesmer has. Its a nice enchantment, but still not the best (in my opinion). Mesmers do not have a big pool of energy and they regenerate energy slower than an Elementalist. While we all agree Elementalists do not have great energy regaining skills, it doesn't mean they have none at all.

What class are you playing? Mesmers have 4 pips... like every other caster. How can you possibly post about how Mesmers can't outdo primary Eles and not know how much regen they have? A Mesmers energy pool is no bigger than any other caster (bar ele). Cast MoR and wait a short while, you have full energy. Cast Rodgorts Invocation just before it ends... you have full energy. Delayed energy gain is 1 of the best things this game has. Not to mention whatever you do to it gives them energy back. Shatter Prodigy or Attunements they gain nothing (and lose a huge chunk of health in Prodigies case).

dawnrain · Aug 01, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

I agree that giving Ele's increased regen based on energy storage levels will just result in Ele's casting more non-Ele spells (i.e. heal party).

The more applicable effect of high max energy is as a buffer for exhaustion. I'd suggest that this effect be made more pronounced. Perhaps change the exhaustion mechanic so that at 15+ exhaustion the dissipation rate is twice as fast (i.e. 2 pips). And at 30+ exhaustion the dissipation rate is 3 pips.

H2BH · Aug 01, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Nice call dawnrain.

Say E-storage +3 mana per point at 9 points = +1 regen from exhasution at 12 = +2 regen from exhastion and +1 e-regen

Might make eles playable and desired in end game again.....you can't deny that the system is alittle broekn when it requires you to use you elite slot just to have enough energy to use basic spells, since you only get 1 elite, any good offensive spells are pretty much relegated to suck b/c 1. you wont have enough energy to use them and 2 you wont have any way to regain E.....

Ensign · Aug 01, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Energy Storage is not emanagement. It is a buffer for emanagement. Higher max energy gives you more room to play with and makes it easier to maximize the returns on your emanagement skills. It also gives you more flexibility to cast things in bursts. Basically an elementalist's four pips are slightly better than other classes' four pips due to that extra flexibility but the difference is pretty minimal once you're talking about 40+ energy.

As mentioned Energy Storage is best used as an exhaustion buffer. Elementalists can use a lot of exhaustion skills in succession while maintaining a useful energy level.

Peace,
-CxE

unholy guardian · Aug 01, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I do kinda agree, almost kinda pointless having such high energy and such when so many things just cause too much exhaustion to be useful. I woudl rather have higher energy storage help get rid of exhaustion, which is the most annoying thing ever when so many skills that really shouldn't give it do.

H2BH · Aug 01, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Ensign....since there are so few non elite skills that casue exhaustion and are useful...gale being a major exception...it kinda defeats the purpose as using it as a buffer, that's part of what we are saying here.

E-Stoarge allows for -- initial high damage combo (fornt loaded damage) and acts as a buffer for exhaustion.

This is all good and fine EXCEPT the only way to regain energy and stay active as en ele is largely Ether Prodigy, which is an elite....meaning we cant use any other elite spells for damage b/c if we do, then we have no way to recover energy....this is the whole point of this post i belive.

B/c we have to spec so high in E-Storage and alot of eles highly effective spells are 15-25energy on long timers that also casue exhaustion, it make you pretty half assed 45 seconds into the fight we you only have 3 energy and the warrior you just spent 70 energy on oly took about 1/2 hp worth of damage, now you get to run around in circles using ether prodigy or whatever form of emanagement you happen to be using, in order to build up enough energy to deal a big enough punch to take someone out.

There's a REALLY good post about this in the warrior forum, about the avg DPS that warriors due vs ele's factoring in wanding vs normal attack and energy useage. Basicly what it boils down to is the ele being able to output about 1/3 the toatal damage due to it having to consume energy to be effective and the regen rate vs casting cost vs damage output...

It sucks to not be able to use any elite skills besides one that controls energy for the simple fact that if you dont, youll only get 5-6 spells off then be a useless duck for 45 seconds regening 20 mana in order to use 2 spells and maybe deal 150 damage....MAYBE.

The Great Al · Aug 01, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2BH

AL Dude that was half my point DOT is king and eles are built more like a DAoC char and are broken due to it

so pretty much we agree on the problem i wasnt saying front loading was some serious flaw, its just smart but its only effective in a world of add or subtract direct damage, where as in guild wars dot are mostly supeirior

Oh I definetly do agree with you, didn't mean to come across as otherwise

A small change that I think would be ever so slightly helpful would be for energy cost and exhaustion to not come into effect until a spell has been cast. If you are trying to cast a spell such as meteor shower or rodgorts, and you get KDd or interrupted 2 or 3 times, your energy is practically depleted

pingu666 · Aug 01, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

takes soddin ages to regen 75e, i know that.

death necros have similer cost spells, mine has 2 25e, and 1 15e, thats 3 types of minions, then 10,15 i think for attacks, 5 for blood of master.

ofcouse, when stuff dies u get energy. handly that includes your minions, so when u get 10 of em, fresh one kills oldest, so u get abit of a refund

.

can make 2 minions, then im outa E (25+25).

my ele was one of the better ones ive played with. 16 on attribute (air or fire) 8-9 on heal, then rest on e storage.

i tried to avoid spells that caused exhaustion, its crippling, on the plus side it makes u spam cheap spells, as your regeneration is higher than the unexhausten

a extra pip or two of regen would be nice, and a set of armour that gives u +energy.

imo many sucumb to the echo nuker thing, dump several metur showers, but then what? no E, exhausted, long regen, and the spell is clusmy too :\