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Old Sep 09, 2006, 02:30 PM // 14:30   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joncoish
If the warrior was going to wait till the elementalist was out of energy, wouldn't the warrior be dead by then? Also, there is such a thing as energy management, meaning the elementalist wouldn't really need to run out of energy, or at least not as fast, and could get it back.
Since all these builds are specced against Warriors...

This is a slightly modified standard sword warrior.

Final Thrust
Sever Artery
Gash
Shatter Storm
Hex Breaker
Sprint
Hex Eater Signet
Healing Signet

I replaced "Charge!" with Shatter Storm, Frenzy with Sprint, and Resurrection Signet with Hex Eater Signet.

Voila, elementalist killing.
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Old Sep 10, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23   #62
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Typical sword bar could look like

Charge
server artery
gash
final thurst
healing signet
frenzy
sprint/rush
rez

typical axe
Eviscerate
executioners strike
Bullstrike
Healing Signet
Frenzy
Sprint/rush
distracting blow/shock
Rez

Typical hammer
Devastating hammer
Crushing blow
Fierce blow
Hammer bash/bull strike
healing signet
Frenzy
Rush/sprint
Rez

Now in which one of those bars do you not see a speed buff. Doesnt matter if the ele sits there or not the warrior can speed up to him and hit him just as fast as he can try to kite the warrior. Not to mention that most warrior bars have a KD of some making you pay for trying to kite.

Also to see why elementalists damage is inferior to warriors damage http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319.
Last edited by warriorsmiley; Sep 10, 2006 at 01:26 AM // 01:26..
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Old Sep 10, 2006, 02:56 AM // 02:56   #63
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Lightning hell, that could not beat my build i posted earlier
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Old Sep 10, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29   #64
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I doubt that. You'd probably not be able to kill the war, but the war can wear the ele down after a while...Shatterstorm takes care of your Attunement, and I can't see you spamming those spells without any energy management. Fine, 2 useless skills on me due to no hexes, but...eh, spamming Obsidian Flame isn't exactly the best way to kill someone. Stoning is 15e, Enervating Charge isn't exactly the best damage dealer ever (but you're not using it for damage anyway), and even when blind I'd just smash on you until you run out of energy. You might get the war to 1/2 health, but you'd never take him down.

Plus, you don't have snare, he can dodge. :P
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 03:50 AM // 03:50   #65
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Default weird.....
I just ran a test of my own....

For the warrior, I ran the test with a pvp axe and att at 16. Only problem I had was the 20% damage modifier. I took 20% off the total overall damage to account for it. I wacked at the 60 ar dummy 107 times.

Here are the numbers (the numbers in parenthesis are after the + 20% damage mod comes off):

Axe- 28.95 (23.18) per swing; 21.72 (17.38) per second, 1303 (1043) per minute.

Now here are the numbers for the Ele if he had 16 in fire like the warrior had in axe hitting a 60 ar target:

Flare-57 damage per hit, 1.75 second investment, 32.57 damage per second, 1954 per minute.

How come these numbers are so different from the baseline in the Nuking Sucks premise?
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 04:45 AM // 04:45   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturo02
I just ran a test of my own....

For the warrior, I ran the test with a pvp axe and att at 16. Only problem I had was the 20% damage modifier. I took 20% off the total overall damage to account for it. I wacked at the 60 ar dummy 107 times.

Here are the numbers (the numbers in parenthesis are after the + 20% damage mod comes off):

Axe- 28.95 (23.18) per swing; 21.72 (17.38) per second, 1303 (1043) per minute.

Now here are the numbers for the Ele if he had 16 in fire like the warrior had in axe hitting a 60 ar target:

Flare-57 damage per hit, 1.75 second investment, 32.57 damage per second, 1954 per minute.

How come these numbers are so different from the baseline in the Nuking Sucks premise?
I think there are some problems with your figures.

I am taking for granted that your 20% is the Axe Mastery +1 (20%), since other modifiers do not make sense. In that case, it hardly matters because that mod doesn't add any damage - instead, it gives a 20% chance to get a +1 on Axe Mastery when using Axe Mastery skills.

If you're talking about Sundering, my question would be why the hell are you running Sundering instead of Vampiric? Sundering is around 20% chance of landing a blow that does around 1.2311444133449162844993930691677 (or, shortened, 1.231) times more than normal damage.

WNS damage figures include the use of Frenzy.

And Flare and all Flare-like spells had been buffed; they were 2s cast and 16...40 damage (0...12), I think. Although I'm not sure it's relevant, WNS was created in January.

Therefore your discrepency in numbers.

EDIT: If you don't know why the numbers are still somewhat off:

Using your 28.95 as a baseline, you get roughly 1 1/3 seconds between attacks. With Frenzy on, which reduces the amount of time by 2/3 (bringing it to 8/9 seconds per attack), you get 1.125 hits per second. So, with Frenzy:

28.95 x 1.125 = 32.569 (5 sf). It's actually higher than the WNS total, and .01 worse DPS than the Flare caster.
Last edited by LightningHell; Sep 11, 2006 at 04:49 AM // 04:49..
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 05:35 AM // 05:35   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturo02
How come these numbers are so different from the baseline in the Nuking Sucks premise?
Because real warriors use customized weapons with conditional 15% damage mods.

Peace,
-CxE
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
Because real warriors use customized weapons with conditional 15% damage mods.

Peace,
-CxE


Aren't PvP warriors usually always equipped with a 15>50%, and aren't all PvP weapons customized?
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 08:15 AM // 08:15   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I think there are some problems with your figures.

I am taking for granted that your 20% is the Axe Mastery +1 (20%), since other modifiers do not make sense. In that case, it hardly matters because that mod doesn't add any damage - instead, it gives a 20% chance to get a +1 on Axe Mastery when using Axe Mastery skills.
Nope, I'm talking about a pvp axe which has the 20% damage mod that you would recieve had you customized the weapon. My build for the test was a warrior with a 16 att in axe, I didn't use a mod that increased it to 17, that would not be a good baseline. I accounted for the 20% damage increase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
If you're talking about Sundering, my question would be why the hell are you running Sundering instead of Vampiric? Sundering is around 20% chance of landing a blow that does around 1.2311444133449162844993930691677 (or, shortened, 1.231) times more than normal damage.
The baseline requires no mods. Why would I be using either mod if I am trying to establish a comparable starting point like in WNS? If anything, I want to avoid this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
WNS damage figures include the use of Frenzy.
Yes, but they also include figures without using frenzy. And even with the skill, it isn't as good as advertised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
And Flare and all Flare-like spells had been buffed; they were 2s cast and 16...40 damage (0...12), I think. Although I'm not sure it's relevant, WNS was created in January.
Nope, flare still is 1 sec cast time, so the formulas as far as cast times and energy usage still hold true. The WNS premise had ele using 12 att while the warrior was using 16 which is not a level playing field. Once you plug in 16 for the ele, the numbers change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Therefore your discrepency in numbers.
See above

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
EDIT: If you don't know why the numbers are still somewhat off:

Using your 28.95 as a baseline, you get roughly 1 1/3 seconds between attacks. With Frenzy on, which reduces the amount of time by 2/3 (bringing it to 8/9 seconds per attack), you get 1.125 hits per second. So, with Frenzy:

28.95 x 1.125 = 32.569 (5 sf). It's actually higher than the WNS total, and .01 worse DPS than the Flare caster.
But if you use the actual number, 23.18, which is the figure after the 20% damage mod is factored out, you come up with 26.07 not 32.569.
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 08:17 AM // 08:17   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
Because real warriors use customized weapons with conditional 15% damage mods.

Peace,
-CxE
But when you do that you are altering the baseline. I don't recall the WNS baseline to include things that changed the parameters of the said baseline.

Ok, I said baseline a lot lol. What I mean is that the baseline should be a foundation of the premise, and if it is not accurate how can we be sure this is a legitimate argument?
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturo02
But when you do that you are altering the baseline. I don't recall the WNS baseline to include things that changed the parameters of the said baseline.

Ok, I said baseline a lot lol. What I mean is that the baseline should be a foundation of the premise, and if it is not accurate how can we be sure this is a legitimate argument?
I never have anything other than 15>50%. The WNS baseline includes the modifier that would be used anyway, on 99% (probably even more) of all Warriors.

The foundation of a Warrior weapon: a customized conditional 15% inherent (usually 15%>50), Vampiric, max damage, from what little I play as a PvP Warrior (I don't play Warrior in PvE, period.) Vampiric might be switched to ebon for hitting warriors.

Quote:
Nope, flare still is 1 sec cast time, so the formulas as far as cast times and energy usage still hold true. The WNS premise had ele using 12 att while the warrior was using 16 which is not a level playing field. Once you plug in 16 for the ele, the numbers change.
Note: Before. They were, when I started my first Character (an elly) in Presearing, 16...40, which would give 48 damage for an attribute 16. I'm guessing that's where that was worked out; however, this is irrelevent now.






Also, your -20% is not correct mathematically. 100% + 20% = 120%, and if you want to get back to 100% you'd do 83.33%, not 80%. :P
Last edited by LightningHell; Sep 11, 2006 at 08:32 AM // 08:32..
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07   #72
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well. this thread is a couple pages off topic.

fire.
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38   #73
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The original article used 16 spec fire for Flare. The skill has since been buffed. It still sucks.

Caster damage tends to be bad for a lot of reasons that are deeper and more fundamental than what is mentioned in that article. I don't really like that article all that much anymore because of the focus it puts on DPS. Maximizing DPS continues to fall further down on my list of things that are important for winning in high level PvP. Better explinations of why caster damage is so anemic center around utility, the ability to make plays, and resource (particularly time) management.

That said, not using weapon customization when establishing baseline weapon damage is moronic.

Peace,
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12   #74
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First off, I should apologize for the freaking out in one of these threads a few weeks back. I am much better at debating things that my earlier replies showed and I’m usually not as retarded.

@ Ensign: Moronic for not using them in the game yes, but unfair for the study. It throws off the comparison when you add any mods.

@lightning hell: I will admit I am no math genius, which shows with the whole 80% thing. Lucky for me, I was only off by 3.33% which is not much really.

ok, the numbers if I used 83.33% instead of 80%
24.12 damage per swing, 1088 per minute, 18.13 per second.

The interesting thing is my original numbers included the damage at 120%. What I put in parenthesis was with 20% lopped off. 80% or 83.33% or even 120%, the damage is still not as high as the silly little flare spammer.

But it's not rl like many have said. And when you start to throw in other factors, things change. If the warrior gets to have that weapon as it's baseline, what does the ele get to use for theirs?
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
The original article used 16 spec fire for Flare. The skill has since been buffed. It still sucks.

Caster damage tends to be bad for a lot of reasons that are deeper and more fundamental than what is mentioned in that article. I don't really like that article all that much anymore because of the focus it puts on DPS. Maximizing DPS continues to fall further down on my list of things that are important for winning in high level PvP. Better explinations of why caster damage is so anemic center around utility, the ability to make plays, and resource (particularly time) management.

That said, not using weapon customization when establishing baseline weapon damage is moronic.

Peace,
-CxE
Ensign, it's an exercise in futility trying to argue with the people in the campfire.

to arturo: If you don't factor in customized weapons and conditional weapon mods, You're throwing off the study by doing said study in too highly of a controlled enviorment where you're manipulating what actually occurs in game in order to fit into what YOU THINK the actual damage numbers are.

to be fair, I'll get on my warrior with customized weapons, and you can spam flare. we'll each take a dummy, and see who gets a kill first.
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Old Sep 11, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33   #76
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Ensign, it's an exercise in futility trying to argue with the people in the campfire.
I tried like a dozen different ways to say 'Arturo02 is a moron' nicely, and that was the best I could come up with. I fail at the internet.

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Old Sep 11, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00   #77
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The origional basis for the article was for PvP. A PvP warrior has his equips customized by defualt, they don't even have a choice in the matter. That +20% damage for customization is very much baseline. In PvE however, that could be debatable I think.
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Old Sep 12, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31   #78
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Originally Posted by Arturo02
First off, I should apologize for the freaking out in one of these threads a few weeks back. I am much better at debating things that my earlier replies showed and I’m usually not as retarded.

@ Ensign: Moronic for not using them in the game yes, but unfair for the study. It throws off the comparison when you add any mods.

@lightning hell: I will admit I am no math genius, which shows with the whole 80% thing. Lucky for me, I was only off by 3.33% which is not much really.


ok, the numbers if I used 83.33% instead of 80%
24.12 damage per swing, 1088 per minute, 18.13 per second.

The interesting thing is my original numbers included the damage at 120%. What I put in parenthesis was with 20% lopped off. 80% or 83.33% or even 120%, the damage is still not as high as the silly little flare spammer.

But it's not rl like many have said. And when you start to throw in other factors, things change. If the warrior gets to have that weapon as it's baseline, what does the ele get to use for theirs?
The ele gets her little stick and foci. :P Warriors get their damage unconditionally.

And that number sounds more like it. Although, in a real PvP situation, spamming flare would allow for not much movement, and the Warrior has a Vampiric mod. And skills, too. Don't forget skills. :P

Also, did you factor in conditional damage mods/frenzy? I think I calculated Frenzy somewhere above. Assuming you didn't use it already. They are/should be always used. For example, the most common modifier that Warriors (and probably rangers too) use; 15>50%. If you're happily slamming your axe at your opponent, you're probably above 50% health. If you're below, run back to your monk before you die.
Last edited by LightningHell; Sep 12, 2006 at 12:35 AM // 00:35..
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Old Sep 12, 2006, 09:32 AM // 09:32   #79
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"The baseline for pressure in this discussion is a warrior who does nothing other than autoattack a caster. With an unmodded max weapon and 16 attribute, he'll dish out the following amounts of damage:"

This is from the WNS study. Note the unmodded max weapon part.

Again, the study is flawed if you start throwing in mods because the original baseline doesn't use them.
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Old Sep 12, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturo02
"The baseline for pressure in this discussion is a warrior who does nothing other than autoattack a caster. With an unmodded max weapon and 16 attribute, he'll dish out the following amounts of damage:"

This is from the WNS study. Note the unmodded max weapon part.

Again, the study is flawed if you start throwing in mods because the original baseline doesn't use them.
Unmodded meaning no Vampiric/whatever. The 15% mod and customization is what everybody should and will run.

The argument is not flawed when you put in inherent mods, since that's the premise on making a Warrior in the first place.
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