Curse

Hyprodimus Prime · Oct 21, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If you are to ask me what AoE damage dealer ideally does the most consistent damage in ideal situations in PvE, I will not argue that a Barrage ranger suits that job, but I don't see one AoE damage dealer as the end all choice. If you disagree with me, fine, but this debate has gotten to the point of smacking two rocks together and I agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I totally agree, consistancy is key. Its supposed to be like health degen, slowly but surely reducing their health. If you can kill faster then go right on ahead, but making sure that all of the enemy is taking about equal damage is key. And one thing about Barrage, its an eleite. Fireball is not, it doesnt even have to hit, dead on, if the guy is running and it lands close, he still takes damage.

LightningHell · Oct 22, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

I totally agree, consistancy is key. Its supposed to be like health degen, slowly but surely reducing their health. If you can kill faster then go right on ahead, but making sure that all of the enemy is taking about equal damage is key. And one thing about Barrage, its an eleite. Fireball is not, it doesnt even have to hit, dead on, if the guy is running and it lands close, he still takes damage.

Who gives a damn about slowly but surely reducing their health when you can quickly and surely reduce their health?

Hyprodimus Prime · Oct 22, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I also said, "If you can kill faster then go right on ahead, " expecially in PvP you cant have a 400 damage spike then wanding the rest or the battle (or untill you recharge). Its better to deal evenly spaced 100s like every 3-4 seconds, unless your teams says otherwise. if you do consistant high damage, thats usually called a spike. Spikes are to kill one foe fast, could be a monk or the MM and this usually saves on energy because generally speaking spikes are cheaper than AoE spells.

TadaceAce · Oct 22, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Are eles useless as damage dealers?

The answer is:
In pvp yes
In pve they are better than wammos so they are good enough!

Katari · Oct 22, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

Are eles useless as damage dealers?

The answer is:
In pvp yes
In pve they are better than wammos so they are good enough!

A well played ele is proabably better than an idiot wammo with mening and 9 axe mastery. What exactly does that prove? It is also true that a well played warrior will outdamage an idiotic ele.

I've gotten to the point where I don't take random PUG eles in groups. It is far too common for them to be packing some DoTAoE, and they rarely have the sense to use it correctly. I end up filling groups with classes that won't mess up agro with regularity.

Chilly Ress · Oct 23, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

It has become clear to me not enough people here play high-end pvp...

Ele's are normally involved in every spike in pvp and are in many pressure teams...

In Pve, in Cantha especially, the only build that will out damage my ele is a ss, it is really quite simple.

Dont believe me? PM me anytime, Fire I Fly.

Chilly Ress · Oct 23, 2006, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

I also said, "If you can kill faster then go right on ahead, " expecially in PvP you cant have a 400 damage spike then wanding the rest or the battle (or untill you recharge). Its better to deal evenly spaced 100s like every 3-4 seconds, unless your teams says otherwise. if you do consistant high damage, thats usually called a spike. Spikes are to kill one foe fast, could be a monk or the MM and this usually saves on energy because generally speaking spikes are cheaper than AoE spells.

Sorry for the double post, but I must address this...

First off, spikes have been around since release and will always be used due to the slow reaction time of humans. Secondly, dealing 100dmg every 3 secs is utterly pathetic. Also, consistent high dmg isnt a spike. Consistent dmg has a name, when its used correctly, its normally called a pressure build. A spike build, a good one atleast, takes down a target in less than a second, if not, the slow reaction time of humans bursts out of its shell and a heal might even be seen. Many builds, pressure and defensive builds included normally have a spike incorporated into it somehow. This is because often times you might not be able to kill a certain high priority target, i.e. the spirit spammer on an NR/Tranq team when your running dual smite. The spike incorporated into the build can hopefully take down a target now and then. Then, of course, as stated, most spike builds that are purely spike builds, spend most of their char slots, skill slots, and energy on defense between the spikes as they have nothing to shutdown or pressure the other teams offense. Most people dont understand that in most every match, pressuring the opposing teams offense also limits what they can do and can partly shut them down. i.e. Hitting a war that is in love with frenzy. The pure spike builds need alot of defense because they cannot do this.

~Chill

Hyprodimus Prime · Oct 23, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

1) 100 damage in 3 seconds is slow/pathetic for nuking? Fireball is a fast one and it takes 2 sec cast, 3/4 aftercast and its a projectile so add in flight time. Thats 3 sec right there, it does 112 at 15 firemagic. Unless you are a starburster, you wont be dealing much more than that in 3 sec...In that case id call that "bursting" because "nuking" is from afar. You know like ICBM. The thing with nuking is that you can cause a MS at the front line tanks, give their monk a nice hex like incediary, Searing heat at the rangers over there...you get what im saying? Bursting is in one place, nuking is from far away.

2) Are you serious? An ele can kill a target in less than a second? lets just presume that you use the fastest skill in the game and its 1/4 cast time, you get 3/4 aftercast, theres 1 second right there! You are saying with one skill I can take down their Spirit Lord?

i see what you mean by spiking and I agree that a spiker will need defences as they cannot depend soley on their offence. But I wasnt talking about that at all.

Someone said that AoE eles (nukers) are supposed be provide the most consitant damage, that may mean a lot or a little, but the point is that its regular. Their job as you said is to add pressure.

LightningHell · Oct 23, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

1) 100 damage in 3 seconds is slow/pathetic for nuking? Fireball is a fast one and it takes 2 sec cast, 3/4 aftercast and its a projectile so add in flight time. Thats 3 sec right there, it does 112 at 15 firemagic. Unless you are a starburster, you wont be dealing much more than that in 3 sec...In that case id call that "bursting" because "nuking" is from afar. You know like ICBM. The thing with nuking is that you can cause a MS at the front line tanks, give their monk a nice hex like incediary, Searing heat at the rangers over there...you get what im saying? Bursting is in one place, nuking is from far away.

Well, there IS an Evis-Exec under Frenzy, but if you talk Elementalist...

Chilly Ress · Oct 23, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

1) 100 damage in 3 seconds is slow/pathetic for nuking? Fireball is a fast one and it takes 2 sec cast, 3/4 aftercast and its a projectile so add in flight time. Thats 3 sec right there, it does 112 at 15 firemagic. Unless you are a starburster, you wont be dealing much more than that in 3 sec...In that case id call that "bursting" because "nuking" is from afar. You know like ICBM. The thing with nuking is that you can cause a MS at the front line tanks, give their monk a nice hex like incediary, Searing heat at the rangers over there...you get what im saying? Bursting is in one place, nuking is from far away.

2) Are you serious? An ele can kill a target in less than a second? lets just presume that you use the fastest skill in the game and its 1/4 cast time, you get 3/4 aftercast, theres 1 second right there! You are saying with one skill I can take down their Spirit Lord?

i see what you mean by spiking and I agree that a spiker will need defences as they cannot depend soley on their offence. But I wasnt talking about that at all.

Someone said that AoE eles (nukers) are supposed be provide the most consitant damage, that may mean a lot or a little, but the point is that its regular. Their job as you said is to add pressure.

You misunderstand my entire post. My post reflected a build as a whole, not just a single character.

jesh · Oct 23, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

After Arcane Echo, 2x Spiteful, and Reckless Haste the guy is sitting really close to empty on energy and isn't going to contribute much more.

Thanks for clarifying on that. On a side note, you gold trimmed bastard, I hate you. Oh yeah, and congrats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poiu

I will not enter in dispute with this statement. You are free to think and write everything. I will believe only to my eyes. You are talking for PvE:
The chain: MS /knockdown/, Rodgort's Invocation /3sec-6hp degeneration/, Incendiary Bonds /after 3 sec -6 hp degeneration/, Fireball, and the respective damage from all of these, works fine for me.

I think it works fine for you because your warriors aren't doing damage. If you join a team like Ensign likes, mobs will be long dead before your meteor shower is doing damage. Heck, I bet two unbuffed warriors could take out the targets before then. At least a PP+Shatter can be cast quickly; before a warrior cuts it to pieces.

dgb · Oct 23, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

It has become clear to me not enough people here play high-end pvp...

Ele's are normally involved in every spike in pvp and are in many pressure teams...

In Pve, in Cantha especially, the only build that will out damage my ele is a ss, it is really quite simple.

Dont believe me? PM me anytime, Fire I Fly.

I don't think anybody ever argued that elementalists can't put out big damage packets. They can. But then again, so can just about every class bar monk. What is argued is that elementalists are billed as the big damage dealer class, designed to pump out the damage, which they patently suck at. Being involved in a spike doesn't mean you're a good DPS engine.

I honestly can't be bothered getting into a PVE pissing competition, read Ensign's above posts if you want insight into why you're wrong about PVE damage dealing.

On a side note I'd argue this post makes it abundantly clear that spike builds make bad players think they are good. Just because you can hit the top 100 doesn't mean you're a good player and it doesn't give you the right to speak for the high end community. Especially when you're wrong.

LightningHell · Oct 23, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

Ele's are normally involved in every spike in pvp and are in many pressure teams...

They are in many pressure teams...pumping out Heal Party. There are plenty of spikes which don't require elementalists; adrenospikes, ranger spikes, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

In Pve, in Cantha especially, the only build that will out damage my ele is a ss, it is really quite simple.

Proven wrong.

Just because somebody can Obsflame spike up the ladder doesn't really mean that Elementalists as a whole can deal respectable damage.

Quote:

On a side note I'd argue this post makes it abundantly clear that spike builds make bad players think they are good. Just because you can hit the top 100 doesn't mean you're a good player and it doesn't give you the right to speak for the high end community. Especially when you're wrong.

QFT especially for GvG.

Chilly Ress · Oct 23, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I don't think anybody ever argued that elementalists can't put out big damage packets. They can. But then again, so can just about every class bar monk. What is argued is that elementalists are billed as the big damage dealer class, designed to pump out the damage, which they patently suck at. Being involved in a spike doesn't mean you're a good DPS engine.

I honestly can't be bothered getting into a PVE pissing competition, read Ensign's above posts if you want insight into why you're wrong about PVE damage dealing.

On a side note I'd argue this post makes it abundantly clear that spike builds make bad players think they are good. Just because you can hit the top 100 doesn't mean you're a good player and it doesn't give you the right to speak for the high end community. Especially when you're wrong.

Again, Im telling you the only thing that will out damage a decent ele is a SS necro, and maybe a MM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

They are in many pressure teams...pumping out Heal Party. There are plenty of spikes which don't require elementalists; adrenospikes, ranger spikes, etc.

Many adren spikes have an ele in there somewhere contributing an orb or Ob Flame. And as for pressure teams, yes, some have HP eles, and some have wards, but, HEY!, every heard of shockwave or a starburster?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Proven wrong.

Just because somebody can Obsflame spike up the ladder doesn't really mean that Elementalists as a whole can deal respectable damage.

Show me this in PvE or in HA, yes, except in VoD ele's do suck at dealing dmg in GvG, but if you dont believe me about the VoD, go watch game 2 of finals...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Just because somebody can Obsflame spike up the ladder doesn't really mean that Elementalists as a whole can deal respectable damage.

If you are referring to PoPo, I was there for 2 days before they disbanded to get a champ point or 2.

LightningHell · Oct 24, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

Again, Im telling you the only thing that will out damage a decent ele is a SS necro, and maybe a MM.

SS is proven to be bad in groups where you're already steamrolling. So are Elementalists.

However, when in an environment where Warriors refuse to kill things...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

Many adren spikes have an ele in there somewhere contributing an orb or Ob Flame. And as for pressure teams, yes, some have HP eles, and some have wards, but, HEY!, every heard of shockwave or a starburster?

They have a contribution to the spike, but I would be very surprised if they couldn't spike without the elly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

Show me this in PvE or in HA, yes, except in VoD ele's do suck at dealing dmg in GvG, but if you dont believe me about the VoD, go watch game 2 of finals...

Yes, I do know about VoD.

dgb · Oct 24, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

Again, Im telling you the only thing that will out damage a decent ele is a SS necro, and maybe a MM.

And again, I'm telling you that you are wrong. Physicals backed up by an orders will waste PVE faster than eles ever will. This whole thread has been about just that, there's ample justification. Your justification so far has been essentialy "I say I deal more damage so I do". If you really beleive it back up your numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

Many adren spikes have an ele in there somewhere contributing an orb or Ob Flame. And as for pressure teams, yes, some have HP eles, and some have wards, but, HEY!, every heard of shockwave or a starburster?

I'm assuming you're counting HA as high end PVP now, because I can't remember the last time I saw a guild with a rank better than 1000 run a shockwave or a starburster in GVG. Shockwave is generally a way to justify having a pure wards bitch in your group. I don't think anybody runs a shockwave for shockwave, they run them for the wards and then take shockwave as an after thought for damage. That character existed before Factions, it just had EQ/AS and GoE and it's primary purpose was to get wards at 16spec, not damage, same as it is now.

Starbursts are really pathetic in my view. They are a character designed to kill bad teams and clear altars. Against good teams they rarely can hit more than one character with their AOE, which is a horrible return. They work well on altars I'll give you that. I figure though if you need help smacking scrubs who crowd up or clearing altars, you've got issues allready.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

Show me this in PvE or in HA, yes, except in VoD ele's do suck at dealing dmg in GvG, but if you dont believe me about the VoD, go watch game 2 of finals...

I suspect (Ensign can you confirm this) that iQ in the latest playoffs were running a fire ele simply because they didn't have much else to do with it. Once you get flash, party, and elite energy management you have the raison d'être of the ele in gvg. Then you look at what other utility you can add, given they were running under NR/Tranq, water snares made no sense, air has garbage utility beyond flash and windborne, earth wards don't exactly help when you spend 90% of your time behind the battle. You've got three or four slots free and no better options, you may as well spec into fire and dump the meteor shower in + you allready have glyph sac. for the hard res. They do decently at VoD yes, but you're not taking them for that, it's a nice extra to have.

You're starting to see duelist runners, which work well with mindshock, but they're not exactly DPS engines either, rather specialised to local battles where they can sacrifice sustainability for reasonably reliable damage.

Ensign · Oct 24, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

We ran Fire because Water is bad under NR/Tranquility and because Fireball > Lightning Orb. Of course the super-VoD plan doesn't hurt.

If you watch game 2 vs. QQ, my character basically did nothing of importance for 20 minutes - popped up to Party a couple times, followed Assassins around and slowed them down a bit with Blinding Flash (though you can't actually stop two Assassins with BFlash), then walked to the stand at VoD to start killing NPCs, which was really easy since we had total position advantage going in.

I had one useful skill on my bar for 20 minutes. Don't get me wrong, I like BFlash, and other skills being dead means that the opponent isn't being too threatening...but I certainly wasn't some killing machine.

Peace,
-CxE

Clock Smasher · Oct 24, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Ahh, yes ... rights thrown to the left, wrongs thrown to the right ... a perfectly-packed 15-page thread about squabbling 12-to-35-year-olds hatin', patrollin', and tryin' to catch the Elementalist class ridin' ... well, on the wrong side of the road.

Children, lend me your ears; Guild Wars is nothing short of futile competition. It's about experimenting, about how YOU find out what's best for YOU and ONLY YOU. Why? Well, why not? What do you care that you can't PvP good enough against bastardizing Warriors that blitz your head off ten-fold? It's all for the love of the game people.

Fine, have it your way. If I must, I would like to contribute that Elementalist should be good for soloing combined with either the subclass of a Monk, Warrior, or a Mesmer. Ranger's can't clock enough damage as said, but what's damage for anyway? Faster killing? Please ... if I were Father Time, I'd kick the lazy shit out of you.

So far, I can only guess that I'll be getting highly detailed arguements coming from this post, but that's because they can't enjoy life; it's always gotta be kill this, kill that, hurry up with that spell! Oh wait, don't bother--it is already dead! Pathetic. Think outside the box people!

What's that? Not good enough for you strategy-hungry warlords? Maybe this'll make you think even for a short while;

Monk - Why is it important? Why do I need more skills to waste energy with? Please, this is not Ragnarok Online. I'm talking about major soloing and farming. If you can heal yourself and others around you, it's a sure-fire way to take them down while patching that impail wound in your breast.

Mesmer - Fast casting. I doubt that no one in this thread even know the basics comparing to that, yet a 3-second interval is enough time for a warrior to take down a semi-balanced Monk. Add in the counters and it makes sense ...

Warrior - Defense. I admit, Elementalist armors suck. But what's fun is that in PvE, you have a greater chance of luring your victims into a heated death shower than sitting there and, hoping verily, it connects and consumes.

See, it's funny that with a little less thinking and a lot more doing, a better alternative comes up to the surface ... you cannot expect an Elementalist to do any more than that. Arguing about it just piles more reasons to abash the Elementalist class. Sure they really can't dish out damage better than a Warrior can, but what's the freaking point?! If you can kill it, then you're the king of your own domain. Have at you!

Thom Bangalter · Oct 24, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Warrior=defense? We're playing way different games.

Hyprodimus Prime · Oct 24, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

(the context is AoE eles, so that means nuking)In PvP you cant have a 400 damage spike then wanding the rest or the battle (or untill you recharge). Its better to deal evenly spaced 100s like every 3-4 seconds, unless your teams says otherwise.

then,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

dealing 100dmg every 3 secs is utterly pathetic. Also, consistent high dmg isnt a spike. Consistent dmg has a name, when its used correctly, its normally called a pressure build. A spike build, a good one atleast, takes down a target in less than a second, if not, the slow reaction time of humans bursts out of its shell and a heal might even be seen.

then,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

1) 100 damage in 3 seconds is slow/pathetic for nuking? Fireball is a fast one and it takes 2 sec cast, 3/4 aftercast and its a projectile so add in flight time. Thats 3 sec right there, it does 112 at 15 firemagic. Unless you are a starburster, you wont be dealing much more than that in 3 sec...In that case id call that "bursting" because "nuking" is from afar. You know like ICBM. The thing with nuking is that you can cause a MS at the front line tanks, give their monk a nice hex like incediary, Searing heat at the rangers over there...you get what im saying? Bursting is in one place, nuking is from far away.

2) Are you serious? An ele can kill a target in less than a second? lets just presume that you use the fastest skill in the game and its 1/4 cast time, you get 3/4 aftercast, theres 1 second right there! You are saying with one skill I can take down their Spirit Lord?

Then,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

You misunderstand my entire post. My post reflected a build as a whole, not just a single character.

We as a thread were talking about nuking as an ele, I said how its best to nuke in PvP, not spike, nuke, and one player nuking for that matter. Then you said that "someone", either a team or player whom you didn't specify when the context was clearly one player, could kill an enemy in less than a second. In which I said that was imposible. And now you say that I read your post wrong? You said that you didnt mean a single player build, I asume its a team build then because thats the only other type their is. How can you accuse me of reading your post wrong when you havent posted on the correct subject? please clerify, make your posts as transparent as water. If I am wrong, then point out exactly where and I will humbly apologize.

On other matters, errr, nice post Clock Smasher, First you act like you are of an elite class, then you don't answer the question of the thread. Such a hipocrite...
But I must say, I see the ele class as an aristocratical proffesion. Such elegance isnt pressented by any other profession.