Curse

Dr Strangelove · Oct 20, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

I would just like to say that after playing as a warrior for a couple days, I retract all my previous statements regarding damage. Warriors do ridiculous amounts of damage and force people in PvP to scatter just like mobs in elementalist AoE.

That being said, elementalist AoE is used heavily because it tends to stack a bit better on one target without too much advance preparation, in other words, a spike. Also, in very high level PvE play, such as The Deep, FoW, UW or Urgoz, mobs deal such ridiculous amounts of damage that a player has to devote his entire skillbar to withstanding it. This leads to the typical "wall + nuke" build, which isn't really used for damage, but for defense.

Also, spiteful does tend to suck a bit IMO. It is a very efficient spell, but it's way to conditional to be all that useful.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 20, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

See? It's no that hard. Go play a warrior in pvp and you'll understand that the damage is bad. Eles are however, awesome utility, and have some neat tricks up their sleeve to add to their team. Remember when reading this thread that it's not to say that elementalists suck, but that their perceived role by much of the community is flawed. They're much better off running draw and heal party then using searing heat.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 20, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

See? It's no that hard. Go play a warrior in pvp and you'll understand that the damage is bad. Eles are however, awesome utility, and have some neat tricks up their sleeve to add to their team. Remember when reading this thread that it's not to say that elementalists suck, but that their perceived role by much of the community is flawed. They're much better off running draw and heal party then using searing heat.

I didn't say searing heat wasn't still an awesome spell, it's saved parties from wipes and kicks all sorts of arse in aspenwood and jade quarry. Ele damage is not as much as a warrior, although it is less predictable. A quick lightning spike, well relatively little damage, can break a defender before a pressured monk notices. I never really noticed the damage a warrior can spit out because I play mostly RA and the competitive missions. Throw a little bit of hate towards that warrior and he'll most likely become completely incapacitated.

As another note, I also disagree with running HP in most PvE instances. There's usually just not enough damage floating around to necessitate it. Monking in PvE is insanely easy without needing to toy around with HP. (The exception being the elite missions). Yes, eles can heal, but monks can heal single targets better and rits can toss out mass heals better.

When henching, I have, and always will stick with a damage build. Henchies just don't seem to work right with defensive builds, be it a monk or an ele. Also, although other classes can do more damage, Stefan the power attack spammer or Dunham the distortion machine sure as hell aren't pumping it out. I noticed a massive drop in damage when I dropped the majority of my damage.

In groups, I have tended to run wards and condition spam for a long time now. Eles can run some pretty nice build with epidemic or fevered dreams. I view AoE DoT as another form of incapacitation with the added bonus of a little bit of damage. Eles have a definite and legitimate role in damage in aspenwood, jade quarry, and The Deep. They aren't so hot in FoW, and I've never understood why people want to spam MS on mobile enemies with high AL.

Elementalists are good for a heck of a lot more than using monk spells with lots of energy, don't sell them short.

prism2525 · Oct 20, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

eles not dealing enough damage? try and tell that to my ele when in she's rolling air of fire magic... or if you're a speedy guy let her be water or earth.

The only problem is that many ele elites suck (Double Dragon for example)

Sir Moak · Oct 20, 2006, 09:09 AM // 09:09

OMG!

I was having some serious fun reading the last two pages of this flame thread!

Considering a game which is composed in a way, that everything has counters and even those counters have counters I would say this argument is pretty pointless.

Considering SS crap is just plain stupid. But assuming some people do that, try some warriors while bringing nothing more than Triple Chop. Arcane Echo+SS was mentioned, so you might take Cyclone Axe too.

SS is nothing more than a single elite skill! It already had some nice complementary skills in Prophecies and got one more when Factions was released.

To most of the people SS means nothing more then the SS/SV dual farming template used in UW. If you just start exploring the necro's Curses line you'll see it's not just about insane amounts of damage. It's all in the name: Curses.

The role of a better SS necro is not just damage, but protecting the team and crippling the enemy's ability to function properly.

What about Reckless Haste? Very nice protection for the tanking warriors and a 25% damage boost for all enemy triggered hexes. Enfeebling Blood: 66% AOE physical damage reduction which can save warrior lives or just take the pressure off monks.

And we're only talking about three skill slots now. You still have plenty slots and attribute points to distribute.

Anyway, back to the point: in several PvE situations you have more than 4-6 enemies to deal with. Pumping out great AOE physical damage in short time is not sustainable when facing multiple mobs. (Except for Barrage and an Orders necro). When your party is ganked in PvE the monks won't be able to keep up with healing and condition/hex removal. (Especially hex removal. Monks don't have too good hex removal spells. Mostly the recharge time is long...) Surely you can bring more monks but then you'll just cripple the party's ability to deal damage.

The whole thread started about doing AOE damage. Most AOE spells are tricky because they all have different flaws, but they share the worst disadvantage: the mob has to be in the AOE. Considering this SS really deserves the elite status. It has a low recharge, quite good casting time (compared to other AOE spells), low casting cost (15e is not a big deal, especially when things some enemies die and soul reaping kicks in) and good damage(37/41 armor ignoring damage is triggered every second is huge compared to similar AOE spells which cause scattering in addition. And don't forget that after applying another SS the damage grows exponentaily!). And you have to add to all this that PvE enemies don't stop attacking/casting for tactical reasons and SS doesn't cause scattering. Of course there are times when using SS is not ideal, but who said that all an SS necro can do is spam "1 TAB 1 TAB 1 TAB 1 TAB 1"?

All in all just think about your role in a party and you'll realize that every character besides the warrior is a support role. This is not a bad thing because warriors need that support, without it they would end up as handy corpses for the MM.

Now about the elementalist line: forget the huge "nuke" seen in other rpg-s, Anet has broken most of the conventional MMORPG/RPG rules with this game so don't be surprised if the ele here is not a traditional RPG ele. Elementalist here just means that the caster will draw his/her power from the four elements, nothing more. When you get over the inital shock, you'll see that it could be a great support character. (Like all casters in the game.)

Peace to all, except our enemies

Mysterial · Oct 20, 2006, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I didn't say searing heat wasn't still an awesome spell, it's saved parties from wipes and kicks all sorts of arse in aspenwood and jade quarry.

Please tell me you're joking. Searing Heat is a terrible spell. If you absolutely need to cause the AoE fleeing effect, use Breath of Fire, at least that's energy efficient.

XvArchonvX · Oct 20, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't hate Spiteful Spirit BTW. I think it's a fine skill to take into a weaker group or straight PUG. It does contain some very slow, but effective tools for killing mobs that weak players will have trouble with. It will eventually kill things even if your team cannot. I just don't think it's all that good on a good team, as it doesn't help you blast through things or stabilize. It's good when you're slow, great when your team needs lots of help, but relatively poor when you're blazing through things.

ok, you are STILL avoiding the question. Slow compared to what? You never specified what "instant-hit AoE" spell is used in your group that is better than SS and until you do, I don't see the legitamacy in your vague claims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Considering that the actual positioning of the characters matter, the necro can't be in range to begin casting at the same time the warriors are moving into position. Mob splits and aggro deviation are a pain, especially when warriors are still closing the gap. A ranger can strike initially due to the range bonus the long bows class weapons have. Then you also have to figure in that the attacks are landing the damage is being caused, not as a reactionary measure some time after casting has been completed. When you get a group of people who are capable of spiking down a target in under 3-5s timeframe such damage over time placements begin to seem pointless. Damage bonus stacks from attack skills like cyclone axe, barrage, and triple chop/hundred blades, when combined with things like orders create this kind of situation. It is not so dissimilar when comparing the old style ranger spike setups under dual orders when comared to any purely spell based damage spike.

Yes, a tank is ahead of the SS in a group, my argument did not overlook this fact and yes, a ranger could get off one shot before the necro could cast SS, but SS would be on that enemy before the ranger could pull off the second and before the warrior could pull off a second slash. Do you honestly think that the enemy will be down within just a few attacks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

To put it another way, you are looking at +52 damage via cyclone axe and triple chop per warrior in up front damage that doesnt include the basic weapon properties or mods(15 skill level). Then you are looking at another +32-34 damage from orders per warrior per target struck (15-16 skill level). So, if pure damage is the goal under that situation, you are looking at +90-92 damage per warrior used with almost a guarenteed follow up of executioners immediately afterwards (assuming dark fury). Barrage doesnt look as impressive with only +74-76 damage under the similar circumstances, but allows for other options like interupt follow ups, dual shot spiking, pet options, and not getting stuck on each other moving to a target and being able to repeate the attack often. Figuring in actual weapon damage, the numbers just go up, but also get mitigated heavier by higher level monsters. Even so, just the barrage user under orders looks more impressive than the spiteful spirit user when only comparing the armor ignoring damage.

So do you run in a party with all warriors? What you fail to realize with SS and Barrage are that they are constant streams of AoE damage rather than small spikes that a warrior does. It takes more than a cyclone axe and triple chop to take down a mob of high level enemies, even if you run 16 axe and 13 strength.

This argument also negates the utility of an SS. Need interupts? grab Shivers for bosses or something from the mesmer like for individual line. Yes, mesmer interupts have much longer recharge times than ranger ones, but barrage rangers aren't the most efficient interupts unless they stop spamming barrage to be able to pull off a shot, whereas a necro can leave SS to do it's damage. Also blood ritual is a very useful skill to help out monks and casters in long battles. It only takes 4 attributes to get a 10 second br which is possible to do with full soul reaping and max curses.

Again this is a narrow sighted argument that compares warriors to casters. Sure they can do a lot of damage, but a party of nothing but warriors is avery unbalanced situation and not realistic in most circumstances.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 20, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Please tell me you're joking. Searing Heat is a terrible spell. If you absolutely need to cause the AoE fleeing effect, use Breath of Fire, at least that's energy efficient.

If I'm using dual attunements, why the hell would I bother with the spell with tiny AoE size? Energy is rarely, if ever, and issue. Larger AoE = more enemies scattered = longer time for said enemies to leave the AoE = more damage. I do think searing heat should be modified to cause burning on every hit, but it's still usable as it is.

SnipiousMax · Oct 20, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

ok, you are STILL avoiding the question. Slow compared to what? You never specified what "instant-hit AoE" spell is used in your group that is better than SS and until you do, I don't see the legitamacy in your vague claims.

I think Ensign's Arguement was that in a Party where mobs are melting away very quickly, any AoE damage spell will more useful than SS which is in essence a DoT spell. DoT's are 'slow' because the damage doesn't have a chance to run full course and loses it's effectiveness as it doesn't always last the duration. While you can cast it on stuff in the back, that spreads your damage thin. I'd rather that enemies were dropping quicker so there were less of them to deal with and not have to worry about my DoT's lasting full duration. He did use Desecrate Enchantments as an example.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 20, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Anyway, I'm kind of tired ot this debate you'll be glad to know...It seems that you've all decided that an elementalist is not an appropriate profession to have in a team... No doubt I'll be back in a few months with another "OMG is this still here" post! Good luck all!

Not true. I (I can't speak for the rest) have decided Elementalists are not good enough as damage-dealers to bring on a group. They can fill other roles good enough. They can ward, they can flag-run and they can provide party-wide support good enough to justify taking them on a group

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix

Trying to use specific PVP examples to say that the class isn't underpowered doesn't really work. You can always find one place where a particular class will function well.

Like every single guild battle in the past season?
Sure, Elementalists are underpowered as damage-dealers, but they have good sides as well. Same goes for the monk, the warrior, the mesmer and all the other professions. They all have things they're better or worse at.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 20, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Please tell me you're joking. Searing Heat is a terrible spell. If you absolutely need to cause the AoE fleeing effect, use Breath of Fire, at least that's energy efficient.

I actually specifically used searing heat in my example because it's so bad. I was tearing through pve last night with two hench warriors, a real warrior, a rit, both the hench monks in hzh, and myself using fireball and hp primarily. Even in that situation (a party full of henchies and 3 real players) I really don't think ss would've helped, because everything died really fast.

Ensign · Oct 20, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

ok, you are STILL avoiding the question. Slow compared to what? You never specified what "instant-hit AoE" spell

As I have mentioned time and again, I do not run primarily offensive casters. I run casters for defense. Everything else is a physical.

Five physicals, hybrid death/order necro, fire/heal party E/Mo, one monk. That is what I run when I have eight good players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Do you honestly think that the enemy will be down within just a few attacks?

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Sure they can do a lot of damage, but a party of nothing but warriors is avery unbalanced situation and not realistic in most circumstances.

Who cares if it's unbalanced if it's the most effective way to rip through things? You don't get bonus points for being balanced.

I will give you that it is unrealistic in most circumstances however. It is very rare to get eight good players who want to do PvE with the intent of steamrolling it. For pickups, it is virtually impossible to run a heavy physical build because most pickup physicals refuse to try and kill things. It is that sort of environment where Spiteful Spirit guy shines.

Peace,
-CxE

holden · Oct 20, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I will give you that it is unrealistic in most circumstances however. It is very rare to get eight good players who want to do PvE with the intent of steamrolling it. For pickups, it is virtually impossible to run a heavy physical build because most pickup physicals refuse to try and kill things. It is that sort of environment where Spiteful Spirit guy shines.

qft

in a game where most pug players only understand one or two different characters, and only one well enough to speak on, it's a alot easier and less embarrassing to ask for a 'nuker' or a 'MM'. it's what they've seen done before.

angshuman · Oct 20, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

What if you spec one Dragon Slash Warrior for pure DPS (DS, Galrath, Silverwing, SunMoon), a second DS war for Deep Wound (DS, Sever, Gash, SunMoon), and set them both loose on a single target? I'd really love to see what 2 pairs of these Dragon Slashers (total 4 Warriors) can achieve, if fed by an Orders Necro. Alternatively, 3 pure-DPS DS wars each pick one target, while 1 Deep Wound DS guy runs around deep-wounding everyone (since there's hardly any condition removal among mobs).

Add in a Barrager with Interrupts, a Prot Monk with Aegis, CoP on the Warriors (fueled by Aegis and Orders), and a Prod/HP/Fire E/Mo, and you could have a pretty interesting party... I think. PvE seems to be fairly hex-heavy (Blindness doesn't seem to be that prevalent), though, so apart from the soon-to-be-nerfed CoP, the party might need plenty of hex removal to keep the warriors clean.

Ensign · Oct 20, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

It's hard to even find people who can play those characters competently. You have a lot of 'tanks' who like to hide in the back and are tenative about going in, 'healers' who spam Healing Breeze and Heal Party then frantically click on their energy bars, 'nukers' who can do little more than echo Meteor Shower and hope. In that environment, Spiteful Spirit is amazing. You target someone in a mob, push the Spiteful button, and things start taking damage and eventually die. Sure you can be a moron and cast it on a target on his own, or on something that's already getting a lot of focus, but the end result is the same - if you cast Spiteful Spirit on stuff, that stuff will die. Without Spiteful, that is, sadly, not the case for an unsettling percentage of pickup groups.

Same deal with Spinal Shivvers. If you can use that on a boss, even the most anemic of groups will eventually get lucky on the interrupts and score a kill. At the same time, I've formed teams that have dropped the Mursaat Monk boss in well under 10 seconds. What good does Spinal Shivvers do when they only get two spells off?

It's all about what your goal is. Are you trying to work through the game with henchmen? You make a build to cover up the holes in their AI and skillset then, and order them around. Trying to PUG? Bring a build that can pick up the team and carry it on its own, because a lot of teams will need it. Playing with good players? Bring builds that blow everything up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angshuman

What if you spec one Dragon Slash Warrior for pure DPS (DS, Galrath, Silverwing, SunMoon), a second DS war for Deep Wound (DS, Sever, Gash, SunMoon), and set them both loose on a single target?

Level 24 targets die in about 3, maybe 4 hits with minimal support from the casters. Level 28 mobs, 4-5 hits. You have to be careful with your Dragon Slash, you usually don't want to gamble with it and miss your target. Resetting Dragon Slash is not fun.

For condition removal, your Monk should have a Mend to spam and you can fit Extinguish on your Ele, and possibly your Necro, without problem. Conditions should simply not be a problem. Hexes are more annoying, but you really can't fight those with removal. Kill the hexers first. Use BLight to clean up the rest.

Peace,
-CxE

Phades · Oct 21, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Yes, a tank is ahead of the SS in a group, my argument did not overlook this fact and yes, a ranger could get off one shot before the necro could cast SS, but SS would be on that enemy before the ranger could pull off the second and before the warrior could pull off a second slash. Do you honestly think that the enemy will be down within just a few attacks?

Under the conditions listed, the enemy would be dead before or on the first trigger of spiteful spirit if your necro managed to dance his way into impecable positioning to land spiteful spirit after the first waves of damage hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

So do you run in a party with all warriors? What you fail to realize with SS and Barrage are that they are constant streams of AoE damage rather than small spikes that a warrior does.

Ideally, 3 wars (sometimes more), 1 orders necro, 1 monk, 1 other utility character/ 2-3 rangers. Also, if everything is dead or near dead in the first 3 attacks, its rather pointless to run damage triggers. You only need to hit around 600 damage per target as ensign already mentioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

It takes more than a cyclone axe and triple chop to take down a mob of high level enemies, even if you run 16 axe and 13 strength.

Dont need 16 axe or 13 str if you are putting out a minimum of 428 armor ignoring damage in the first 3 seconds of the engagement in an AOE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Need interupts?

Nope, have wars and rangers with those.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

barrage rangers aren't the most efficient interupts unless they stop spamming barrage to be able to pull off a shot, whereas a necro can leave SS to do it's damage.

Thats irrellevant, considering ranger interupts combo together almost instantly following any other attack. Chaining together interupts doesn't work too good though. Considering the damage output, you wouldn't need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Also blood ritual is a very useful skill to help out monks and casters in long battles.

Amazing how orders and dark fury are both in the blood line. Also, battles typically dont last that long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Again this is a narrow sighted argument that compares warriors to casters. Sure they can do a lot of damage, but a party of nothing but warriors is avery unbalanced situation and not realistic in most circumstances.

The only time spiteful spirit is pulling its weight, is in a single defensive tank scenario with no ranger support. This is considering the orders based barrage is greater damage than spiteful spirit even at 16 curses. This is opposed to the offensive warrior setups mentioned here that actually do good damage even in aoe setups.

Hyprodimus Prime · Oct 21, 2006, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Not true. I (I can't speak for the rest) have decided Elementalists are not good enough as damage-dealers to bring on a group. They can fill other roles good enough. They can ward, they can flag-run and they can provide party-wide support good enough to justify taking them on a group

Like every single guild battle in the past season?
Sure, Elementalists are underpowered as damage-dealers, but they have good sides as well. Same goes for the monk, the warrior, the mesmer and all the other professions. They all have things they're better or worse at.

I usually run a nuker build in PvE unless I farm, then i might go sin or monk, or if running then range. And In AB also a nuker. While nuking I got to say that It spits out a lot of damage. The thing with damage from afar is that you can send a MS in, cast fireball and when it hits, you will have a KD and 112+112, cast rodgorts and you got another KD and 120+112 and burning. Same thing with Incendary Bonds, then fireball, you get 80+112 then burning, cast rodgorts and you get another burning as soon as the first one ends. What im trying to say is that Eles deal a continuous damage and effects that is unconditional providing they have the energy to do so (i dont think thats much of a problem...)

Ive taken on 4 stupid rangers at once in Pve, their high elemental resistant armor had little effect because of the delayed damage, MS= KD, rodgorts burning and as they run, Incendary, they come back fireball=dead. Course I was at around 60 healthby then, but my work allowed me to res the dead monk behind me and it saved the team.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 21, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

I usually run a nuker build in PvE unless I farm, then i might go sin or monk, or if running then range. And In AB also a nuker. While nuking I got to say that It spits out a lot of damage. The thing with damage from afar is that you can send a MS in, cast fireball and when it hits, you will have a KD and 112+112, cast rodgorts and you got another KD and 120+112 and burning. Same thing with Incendary Bonds, then fireball, you get 80+112 then burning, cast rodgorts and you get another burning as soon as the first one ends. What im trying to say is that Eles deal a continuous damage and effects that is unconditional providing they have the energy to do so (i dont think thats much of a problem...)

Ive taken on 4 stupid rangers at once in Pve, their high elemental resistant armor had little effect because of the delayed damage, MS= KD, rodgorts burning and as they run, Incendary, they come back fireball=dead. Course I was at around 60 healthby then, but my work allowed me to res the dead monk behind me and it saved the team.

Meteor Shower, if the ranger is dumb enough to stand in it, will do 66 damage. It would be a small miracle of the ranger was daft enough to stand in it for a couple more seconds rather than take two steps. Fireball is another 66. Rodgorts is another 66 + 42 damage from burning. Incendiary bonds is another 66 + 42 from burning. Apparently your fireball has recharged, so that's another 66 damage. Apparently your rodgort's had now gotten a 4x speed recharge because it has recharged in 4 seconds, the time it took to cast fireball and IB. So that's another 66 + 42.

That brings us to 456 damage, just barely enough to kill that one ranger if he had no healing, and was using a superior rune, sup. vigor rune, and a bow with no health bonus.

As for casting time, MS is 5 seconds, fireball is 2, rodgort's is 3, IB is 2. Each spell has a .75 second aftercast, so:

5 second MS
.75 aftercast
2 second fireball
.75 aftercast
3 second rodgort's
.75 aftercast
2 second IB
.75 aftercast
2 second fireball
.75 aftercast
3 second rodgorts

=20.75 seconds to deal 456 damage to one target, 13.25 second of which was acitively casting spells and potentially being interrupted. If the aforementioned ranger had a pulse of any kind, he could have interrupted you, used troll unguent, ran away, or just shot you 3 or 4 times until you died. When dealing damage in PvP, an elementalist's greatest strength is surprise. 20.75 seconds is, if you ask me, a pretty darn slow spike.

Oh, and as for energy not being much of a problem, you just used 25 + 10 + 25 + 15 + 10 + 25 = 110 energy.

Hyprodimus Prime · Oct 21, 2006, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Meteor Shower, if the ranger is dumb enough to stand in it, will do 66 damage. It would be a small miracle of the ranger was daft enough to stand in it for a couple more seconds rather than take two steps. Fireball is another 66. Rodgorts is another 66 + 42 damage from burning. Incendiary bonds is another 66 + 42 from burning. Apparently your fireball has recharged, so that's another 66 damage. Apparently your rodgort's had now gotten a 4x speed recharge because it has recharged in 4 seconds, the time it took to cast fireball and IB. So that's another 66 + 42.

That brings us to 456 damage, just barely enough to kill that one ranger if he had no healing, and was using a superior rune, sup. vigor rune, and a bow with no health bonus.

As for casting time, MS is 5 seconds, fireball is 2, rodgort's is 3, IB is 2. Each spell has a .75 second aftercast, so:

5 second MS
.75 aftercast
2 second fireball
.75 aftercast
3 second rodgort's
.75 aftercast
2 second IB
.75 aftercast
2 second fireball
.75 aftercast
3 second rodgorts

=20.75 seconds to deal 456 damage to one target, 13.25 second of which was acitively casting spells and potentially being interrupted. If the aforementioned ranger had a pulse of any kind, he could have interrupted you, used troll unguent, ran away, or just shot you 3 or 4 times until you died. When dealing damage in PvP, an elementalist's greatest strength is surprise. 20.75 seconds is, if you ask me, a pretty darn slow spike.

Oh, and as for energy not being much of a problem, you just used 25 + 10 + 25 + 15 + 10 + 25 = 110 energy.

The Rangers were dumb enough to stand in MS as they are AI. I said at the begning of the second paragraph, I was in PvE.
You have some of your numbers wrong too, the damage is actually less per spell, at 15 fire magic, MS and Fireball do 112, rodgorts does 120 and incendry has 80. Rangers have 100 armor vs elemental. My build was as follows:
1) Auspicious Incantation
2) Glyph of Renewal
3) Meteor Shower
4) Fireball
5) Rodgort's Invocation
6) Incendiary Bonds
7) Aura of Restoration
8) Resurrection Signet

I casted in this order, GoR, MS, Fireball, Rodgorts, Incendiary, FB.
MS first hit =56
FB=56
second MS missed because of AoE scatter=0
Rodgorts=60+42
Incendiary=40+42
FB=56
MS third hits because monsters return back to position to attack=56
add it up and you get 408 damage.
Troll unguent was interupted randomly by KD. Ok I fibbed a bit of the damage, my Ranger friend helped out a bit

but I did do most of it. Energy wasnt too bed because of Auspicious incantation. But you are right about eles in PvP, if they deal damage it better be quick it adds pressure to monks. ie The Starburster or Promise nuker.

XvArchonvX · Oct 21, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Ok, let me summarize my points since the debate is becoming more and more vague.

1) I am not arguing that a SS has it's place in every "good" team in PvE, having a balance between physical damage and spell casting damage is in most cases an advantage. A full physical damage team is not meeting it's potential when confronted with enemies that evade/block (such as Naga Rangers, Jade with weapon of warding on them, Star Sentinels, etc.) and use hexes (SS, Blurred Vision, Empathy, etc.).

2) I don't believe that even the best of teams can take down every enemy faster than SS can be cast and activated. Tanks target one enemy at a time, Barrage rangers cannot take down a whole mob in a couple hits, and unless you are running an ele in there also, there is no other damage being made to AoE unless there is an occaisonal Cyclone Axe/Triple Chop.

3) The utilities of other SS skills make an SS more useful, since Desecrate and Defile Enchants can be used on the same or other targets while SS is doing it's work. Shivers, while not being the best interupt in all situations is very helpful when used in the right places such as Kuunavang and Kanaxai. Blood Ritual is also helpful in a team that knows how to communicate and allows your team to have more backbone when pressure increases.

If you are to ask me what AoE damage dealer ideally does the most consistent damage in ideal situations in PvE, I will not argue that a Barrage ranger suits that job, but I don't see one AoE damage dealer as the end all choice. If you disagree with me, fine, but this debate has gotten to the point of smacking two rocks together and I agree to disagree and leave it at that.