Curse

XvArchonvX · Oct 18, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That's if you're purposefully slowing down your fire to make sure that every attack is a Barrage. Against all but the tightest of mobs it makes sense to stagger your Barrages to every other attack, to maximize single target DPS while still getting Barrages off nearly as frequently.

I don't see how it makes sense to stagger barrages. Yes, when you spam barrage you will shoot a little slower than if you would otherwise, but if you are attacking multiple targets it is worth it to sacrifice attack speed in order to exploit groups of multiple enemies. Even if you shot twice as slow when using barrage, you would still do more dps by hitting 2 or more enemies at a time due to multible hits plus the damage bonus from Barrage itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Regarding Spiteful Spirit - it's weak because of how much it has to trigger in PvE to be effective. It's a high investment skill, and unless the victim it given time to make it work you're better off just throwing a DD.

Considering the energy regeneration potential from a necro (especially in PvE) I don't see how SS is high investment. If your targets are dying before SS does much damage, then SR will easily reimburse you for the cost of that skill. Also considering that only a few attacks from an enemy easily do over 100 damage (much more if that enemy is in a tight group).

Ensign · Oct 19, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Even if you shot twice as slow when using barrage, you would still do more dps by hitting 2 or more enemies at a time due to multible hits plus the damage bonus from Barrage itself.

If you shot twice as slow using Barrage alone you would always stagger it with another skill - Barrage plus normal shot would be better than half speed Barrage after all. You can get useful effects out of those in-between shots too. Again, this isn't something you'd want to do all the time, but against sufficiently low mob densities Barrage every other shot is optimal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Considering the energy regeneration potential from a necro (especially in PvE) I don't see how SS is high investment. If your targets are dying before SS does much damage, then SR will easily reimburse you for the cost of that skill. Also considering that only a few attacks from an enemy easily do over 100 damage (much more if that enemy is in a tight group).

15e plus cast time for something that takes another 5-6 seconds to start to be a beneficial trade. If enemies are dying that quickly yes you get the energy back, but your character also isn't doing anything and Spiteful Spirit is a dead skill.

Spiteful Spirit Necros, in my experience, are effective in pick-up groups or other bad teams where people are trouble killing anything. There, Spiteful Spirit has a lot of time to work and it because a very effective way of killing things. In a good group, Spiteful Spirit is largely a dead skill, and a character dedicated to using it doesn't pull its weight.

Peace,
-CxE

XvArchonvX · Oct 19, 2006, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you shot twice as slow using Barrage alone you would always stagger it with another skill - Barrage plus normal shot would be better than half speed Barrage after all. You can get useful effects out of those in-between shots too. Again, this isn't something you'd want to do all the time, but against sufficiently low mob densities Barrage every other shot is optimal.

Staggering shots between Barrage and an attack skill only gives a higher DPS when attacking a single target. If there are even 2 targets that can be hit by barrage, then a constant stream with barrage will always provide a higher DPS. Staggering barrage with normal attacks gives no advantage even against a single target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

15e plus cast time for something that takes another 5-6 seconds to start to be a beneficial trade. If enemies are dying that quickly yes you get the energy back, but your character also isn't doing anything and Spiteful Spirit is a dead skill.

If this is the experience you either A) have a group that does such high damage that whether you contribute damage or not means nothing B) You need to target an enemy that is not being spiked by your teammates and find an enemy in the back of a group (such as a ranger) to cast SS on, or C) need to not bring SS to Shing Jea Island.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Spiteful Spirit Necros, in my experience, are effective in pick-up groups or other bad teams where people are trouble killing anything. There, Spiteful Spirit has a lot of time to work and it because a very effective way of killing things. In a good group, Spiteful Spirit is largely a dead skill, and a character dedicated to using it doesn't pull its weight.

Please tell me how one of the only DoT AoE skills that doesn't cause enemies to flee is a dead skill and please tell me what you bring in it's place. Yes a MM can outdamage SS, but a MM can outdamage almost anything with a sufficient supply and a group can only take a max of one at a time. If you mean to tell me that you bring a group full of warriors then I fail to see how this has any advantage since it would be completely single target based damage.

Apple · Oct 19, 2006, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

I fail to see how this has any advantage since it would be completely single target based damage.

I've heard stories from JR that 6 Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe warriors completely destroys any form of pve, but i still believe in Barrage

Ensign · Oct 19, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Staggering shots between Barrage and an attack skill only gives a higher DPS when attacking a single target.

If you don't use a strong attack skill, sure. If you're under an attack speed boost and are only hitting two targets...well, break out fraps to figure out what would be stronger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If this is the experience you either

No I'm just talking about groups that actually kill things. Spiteful triggering once does not justify the character slot. It triggering twice doesn't either. It needs to trigger at least three times, and really you want it to trigger even more, and hit with the AoE, to justify the usage of the elite slot and the character. That whole process requires an entire closely packed mob to remain upright for 8-10 seconds, which is simply not the case if you have a strong team.

If you have a bad team I agree without argument that Spiteful Spirit is an excellent skill and character. Things aren't dying which gives Spiteful Spirit time to do its work and become rather efficient. Spiteful will kill mobs on its own on an offensively anemic team. That's why the build is good - because a player with no connections can take it, get into a pick-up group, and be somewhat successful because Spiteful can carry the team. However, that does not give it a place on a power team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Please tell me how one of the only DoT AoE skills that doesn't cause enemies to flee is a dead skill and please tell me what you bring in it's place.

More physicals. Minions. Instant-hit AoE. Things that kill targets before DoT becomes relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

but a MM can outdamage almost anything with a sufficient supply and a group can only take a max of one at a time.

Why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If you mean to tell me that you bring a group full of warriors then I fail to see how this has any advantage since it would be completely single target based damage.

Warriors, Barrage, Minions, Instant-hit AoE on the Party guy. AoE DoT loses value very quickly when enemies melt before they can even start to bunch up, let alone stay clumped up to have Spiteful go to work.

Spiteful deals a good amount of damage for the energy but it is very slow damage. As your team gets better, damage comes in faster, and slow DoT damage becomes worse and worse. After a point you're better off just flashing Desecrate than trying to get cute with Spiteful.

Peace,
-CxE

Symbol · Oct 19, 2006, 02:41 PM // 14:41

I think searing flames has serious potential as a damage elite. Maybe with arcane mimicried ether prism to feed it?

XvArchonvX · Oct 19, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you don't use a strong attack skill, sure. If you're under an attack speed boost and are only hitting two targets...well, break out fraps to figure out what would be stronger.

The only way this could be viable would be to use Marauder's Shot every 6 seconds, but the increased damage from this is rather irrelevant. My point however was that in most cases a barrager should not stagger their shots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

No I'm just talking about groups that actually kill things. Spiteful triggering once does not justify the character slot. It triggering twice doesn't either. It needs to trigger at least three times, and really you want it to trigger even more, and hit with the AoE, to justify the usage of the elite slot and the character. That whole process requires an entire closely packed mob to remain upright for 8-10 seconds, which is simply not the case if you have a strong team.

Ok, saying you have a group that "actually kills things" avoids my question and assumes that you have a group that can kill every enemy in the area in less than 6 seconds. I say 6 seconds because that's about how long it would take for a SS to land two SS on two enemies and have it trigger twice on the first target and once on the second making a net 37+37+37=111 damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

More physicals. Minions. Instant-hit AoE. Things that kill targets before DoT becomes relevant.

Physicals are in general single target, thus not comparable. There can only be one (or maybe 2 in Vizunah) MM on a team and as I said before this is not relevant. Also you need damage to take down enemies quickly so a MM can get started and Deathly Swarm isn't going to cut it. "Instant-hit AoE" COULD be a relevant answer since it is the only comparable type of damage except you avoided the question. Please tell me what instant hit AoE has an equal to or less than cast and recharge to SS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Why?

Typo on my part. What I meant was that a team with a MM and single target damage dealers can't take down every enemy in the area at the same time. This is why you have a necro put SS on the enemy in the back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Warriors, Barrage, Minions, Instant-hit AoE on the Party guy. AoE DoT loses value very quickly when enemies melt before they can even start to bunch up, let alone stay clumped up to have Spiteful go to work.

Again, "Instant-hit AoE" does not say anything. Are you talking about an ele? Also comparing a barrage ranger to an SS is not a relevant arguement. Optimally, yes, a barrage ranger can do more dps than an SS, but there are often times when a barrage ranger cannot take out certain targets due to obstruction, evasion, blindness, hexes, etc. The point is that a good group will have balanced members so that one type of shutdown does not shutdown the whole group.

Master Fuhon · Oct 19, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Against all but the tightest of mobs it makes sense to stagger your Barrages to every other attack, to maximize single target DPS while still getting Barrages off nearly as frequently.

There's something more tricky about being an AoE damage dealer than just maximizing your damage. The single target DPS thing works against melee, where once you kill one, they fill in the remaining space around your aggro source.

Against casters, it makes more sense to only spam barrage, because you want the most single target damage to accummulate on the enemies on the edge of your adjacent range. In order to funnel the casters closer together it involves moving the aggro source back to get the casters to pursue. This doesn't work well with minion/pet groups, and might mess with the aim of the Barragers in the back if it isn't done properly.

Being an AoE guy, you let the guy who picks the worst position (middle) live the longest. His position is what chains the greatest amount of damage being dealt to his teammates.

SnipiousMax · Oct 19, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

<snip>...Barrage...<snip>

Ack, you've gone and given me something to think about. Looks like another late night on the Isle of the Nameless after I dust off my old notes about barrage.

Vermilion Okeanos · Oct 19, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I believe the SS and barrage arguments are way too conditional, and is now a parrarel argument.

It is pretty clear that those skills got their placed in certain situation, and not in other situations.

When I use barrage, I usually use it with hornbow to maxmize the shooting frames, unless in higher elevation and needed the range. In PvE, I often use FLATBOW (omgz) because targets don't kite which translate to more DPS.

PvE also change opponent quite often, it isn't like PvP that you would fight one set of opponent for a long time. One might not bother using SS on a frenzy afflicted warrior, but yet in the same area there are jade warrior that you would defintely want to use SS on instead.

Ensign · Oct 19, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

My point however was that in most cases a barrager should not stagger their shots.

This has never been contested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Ok, saying you have a group that "actually kills things" avoids my question and assumes that you have a group that can kill every enemy in the area in less than 6 seconds.

Actually, no, it doesn't require that at all. It requires targets to start dropping within 6 seconds, not for all of them to have dropped. How many monsters are you hitting with Spiteful? Through general play and outside of a few specific zones (like Urgoz or The Deep), mobs generally come in groups of four to six. They are usually a mix of melee and ranged as well, which splits the mobs up naturally, if they were not already spread out for whatever reason. Or in general you aren't getting these really sweet adjacent AoE situations. A couple of monsters dying quickly eliminates the value of dedicated AoE attacks.

It isn't a question of 'how fast do monsters have to die for Spiteful to not do anything', but 'how fast do monsters have to die for a Spiteful Spirit Necro to not pull his weight?'

Put another way - a typical Spiteful Spirit Necromancer contributes very little to a team beyond Spiteful Spirit damage. He needs to do more than a proportional share of damage in order to justify his slot. Against a mob of, say, 6 level 24 monsters with 2 Monks on his own team, Spiteful Spirit guy needs to be dealing 600 damage *at a minimum* to be even worth thinking about running, and he should realistically be dealing more. To repeat myself yet again, Spiteful Spirit is slow, it takes a while for it to start pulling its weight, and the stronger the group, the less time it has to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I say 6 seconds because that's about how long it would take for a SS to land two SS on two enemies and have it trigger twice on the first target and once on the second making a net 37+37+37=111 damage.

Do you think that a Spiteful Spirit that deals 111 damage is good?

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Physicals are in general single target, thus not comparable.

Barrage isn't single target, now is it? Hundred Blades and Cyclone Axe aren't single target. Dervishes will be in the game in just over a week and they aren't single target.

But why aren't they comparable? From a very naive perspective, damage is damage, and AoE is valuable because, well, it's *more* damage albeit conditional. However concentrated damage is more valuable because it kills faster and killing has all sorts of other benefits...so AoE damage is valuable because it should be *significantly outpacing* single target damage.

I would suggest that AoE damage and single target damage, particularly in the context of PvE, are definitely things that you can compare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

There can only be one (or maybe 2 in Vizunah) MM on a team and as I said before this is not relevant.

I've run with two minion masters through several missions, and when I did Vizunah with my Necromancer for Masters we had *four* between our teams. Yes, the second minion guy is less valuable than the first, but he isn't being compared to that minion guy, he's being compared to whatever else would go into that slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Also you need damage to take down enemies quickly so a MM can get started and Deathly Swarm isn't going to cut it.

What are the other six guys on the team doing, waving pom-poms?

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

This is why you have a necro put SS on the enemy in the back.

Yes, the 'soften up the last guys you kill' usage of the skill. Also known as the only way to use the character so that he's not a total waste.

How valuable do you think damage on the last guys you mop up is compared to damage on the first guys you drop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Again, "Instant-hit AoE" does not say anything. Are you talking about an ele? Also comparing a barrage ranger to an SS is not a relevant arguement.

I don't understand how you can say that at all. Spiteful Spirit guy and Barrage guy naively exist for the exact same reason - to pummel monsters bunching up in an adjacent AoE. How is that not comparable?

Why can we not compare Spiteful Spirit to anything? What are the special circumstances about that spell that make it so special that we can't compare it to other characters that we can put in its place?

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Optimally, yes, a barrage ranger can do more dps than an SS

Plus he brings a lot more utility to the table, and is a heartier character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

but there are often times when a barrage ranger cannot take out certain targets due to obstruction

A ranger who is stopped by obstruction in PvE is a moron. PvE is not filled with monsters bringing hard counters to your strategies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

The point is that a good group will have balanced members so that one type of shutdown does not shutdown the whole group.

This is PvE. Where in PvE is there such widespread shutdown that 'the whole group being shut down' is even remotely imaginable?

Peace,
-CxE

ramma77 · Oct 19, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

i can't be arsed to read this entire thread but i am sure the OOP has been well and truely sorted it

Both attunements and air skills. lots of damage. weeeeeeeeeeeeee

XvArchonvX · Oct 19, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

This has never been contested.

Then it appears we agree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Actually, no, it doesn't require that at all. It requires targets to start dropping within 6 seconds, not for all of them to have dropped. How many monsters are you hitting with Spiteful? Through general play and outside of a few specific zones (like Urgoz or The Deep), mobs generally come in groups of four to six. They are usually a mix of melee and ranged as well, which splits the mobs up naturally, if they were not already spread out for whatever reason. Or in general you aren't getting these really sweet adjacent AoE situations. A couple of monsters dying quickly eliminates the value of dedicated AoE attacks.

And why would a SS put SS on a target that is dying? I think you are missing the point here. If your worry is that a 2 second cast spell takes to long to do damage, then the choice of what person you take is quite frankly nullified since enemies are apperently dropping like flies in your utopian scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It isn't a question of 'how fast do monsters have to die for Spiteful to not do anything', but 'how fast do monsters have to die for a Spiteful Spirit Necro to not pull his weight?'

If all enemies in the area are dying in less than 6 seconds, there really is no profession that can "pull their weight" as far as a damage dealer goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Put another way - a typical Spiteful Spirit Necromancer contributes very little to a team beyond Spiteful Spirit damage. He needs to do more than a proportional share of damage in order to justify his slot. Against a mob of, say, 6 level 24 monsters with 2 Monks on his own team, Spiteful Spirit guy needs to be dealing 600 damage *at a minimum* to be even worth thinking about running, and he should realistically be dealing more. To repeat myself yet again, Spiteful Spirit is slow, it takes a while for it to start pulling its weight, and the stronger the group, the less time it has to do that.

Where are you getting "600" damage as a requirement? To have a number like this there must me more factors involved than simply how many enemies and how many monks you have. If you would like to share your calculations, I will take your argument seriously, until then, this is some vague arbitrary number that means nothing.

You keep telling me how "slow" SS is, but you have yet to tell me of a faster alternative! Honestly this question dodging is getting rather frustrating. All I have gotten from you as a suggested AoE damage dealer is a barrage ranger and an "instant-hit AoE" person, whatever that is. I asked you to specify what instant hit spell can do more damage than SS and be able to be recast just as quickly if not faster than SS. Please don't make me laugh if you tell me Starburst.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Do you think that a Spiteful Spirit that deals 111 damage is good?

Considering that this damage was calculated as being on single targets alone, is armor ignoring, and multiplied exponentially with nearby targets, yes I would say this is good.

Let me put it this way, SS takes 2 seconds to cast. It takes a ranger 2 seconds to fire one shot (1.5 under an IAS) and will take about 2 seconds for the warrior to run up to the mob and start attacking, so I'm really not seeing how SS is "slow". SS is triggered on each action by an enemy, so put it on an attacking enemy and you get 37 AoE damage on that enemy just as frequently as your allies can attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Barrage isn't single target, now is it? Hundred Blades and Cyclone Axe aren't single target. Dervishes will be in the game in just over a week and they aren't single target.

Perhaps you should reread my statement. I said IN GENERAL. Cyclone axe and Hundred Blades like skills are nice, but are restricted to melee range. Also they do only one small burst of AoE damage until the recharge time allows it to be reused. Finally where in the hell did Dervish come from?? When the new professions are released the PvE metagame changes and this debate is largely nullified. In case you didn't notice, nowhere did I ever compare a SS to a Dervish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

But why aren't they comparable? From a very naive perspective, damage is damage, and AoE is valuable because, well, it's *more* damage albeit conditional. However concentrated damage is more valuable because it kills faster and killing has all sorts of other benefits...so AoE damage is valuable because it should be *significantly outpacing* single target damage.

I agree, saying that damage is damage is a very naive perspective. Concentrated damage is NOT necessarily better. Concentrated damage CAN be better if there are a low number of enemies and the concentrated damage can be very high. This is why spiking is so good in PvP. PvE however is largely controlled on multiple target takedown (thus why 'sins and mesmers aren't often chosen for groups).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I would suggest that AoE damage and single target damage, particularly in the context of PvE, are definitely things that you can compare.

This is highly dependant on enemy number and enemy position. Since this is not constant in PvE, the damage potential of a single target damage dealer and an AoE damage dealer is very relative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I've run with two minion masters through several missions, and when I did Vizunah with my Necromancer for Masters we had *four* between our teams. Yes, the second minion guy is less valuable than the first, but he isn't being compared to that minion guy, he's being compared to whatever else would go into that slot.

Let's not nit pick, shall we? Yes, I'm sure there's probably somewhere else that you used more than one MM and there may be some places where you used no MM, but my point was that the damage potential of a MM is very dependant on the circumstance as you have additionally illustrated, so debating between an MM and SS is apples to oranges. Toss out infinite corpses and the SS will be doing very little, make all the enemies corpseless and the MM will be twiddling his thumbs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

What are the other six guys on the team doing, waving pom-poms?

I think you might have missed the point with your smart ass comment. The damage potential of a party is strongly reliant on a the non-minion damage dealers until the MM gets started. After he does however, even the tanks may be doing little beyond chasing enemies that die at their feet before they can take a swing. The point was that an SS is very helpful in getting the bodies to drop before the minions rise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yes, the 'soften up the last guys you kill' usage of the skill. Also known as the only way to use the character so that he's not a total waste.

Well in your uber group apperently everything is dying before a 2 second spell can be cast and do any damage, so what's the point in even having 8 people in your group? Do you know of some uber 1/4 second cast skill with no recharge that does 600 damage or something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't understand how you can say that at all. Spiteful Spirit guy and Barrage guy naively exist for the exact same reason - to pummel monsters bunching up in an adjacent AoE. How is that not comparable?

Also since you don't seem to tell the difference between a barrage ranger and an SS in terms of advantages and disadvantages, let me break it down for you:

Blind, SS, Empathy, Spirit of Failure, Blurred Vision, Clumsiness, Ineptitude, evasive stancesetc. = shutdown or near shutdown barrage ranger

Backfire, Dazed, Guilt, Hex removal (this is vague but covers a great number of skills), etc. = shutdown or near shutdown SS necro.

Basically an SS can shine where a Barrage ranger may fail in some cases and vice versa. For a situation where a combination of shutdowns may be present, a combination of both is best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Why can we not compare Spiteful Spirit to anything? What are the special circumstances about that spell that make it so special that we can't compare it to other characters that we can put in its place?

Don't tell me you can't tell the difference between a spell and an attack skill. Some enemies pwn casters, some enemies pwn physical damage dealers. See above explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Plus he brings a lot more utility to the table, and is a heartier character.

I will not disagree that Rangers are some of the strongest utility characters, but a barrage ranger generally has little more than an interupt that cannot be used when he is spamming barrage. An SS also has Shivers which is paralleled by only Broadhead Arrow against many bosses such as Kuunavang.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

A ranger who is stopped by obstruction in PvE is a moron. PvE is not filled with monsters bringing hard counters to your strategies.

Have you never encountered an area where you were able to kill enemies behind closed doors? Have you never encountered enemies that use evasive/block skills? Take your barrage ranger out against some Naga anywhere out in Luxon territory and watch him constantly miss against the Naga using Escape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

This is PvE. Where in PvE is there such widespread shutdown that 'the whole group being shut down' is even remotely imaginable?

In a balanced group, there is not total group shutdown. Most enemy groups in PvE are designed to counter only a few strategies. If you run with nothing but tanks and barrage rangers, your group will be be left spinning their tires in the mud against evasive/blocking enemies.

byteme! · Oct 20, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If all enemies in the area are dying in less than 6 seconds, there really is no profession that can "pull their weight" as far as a damage dealer goes.

If ANYTHING dies in under 6 seconds someone MUST be pulling their weight and it won't be the SS Necro by a long shot because quite frankly most things don't just die on their own. (Dying Nightmares is an exception of course) This argument of yours is flawed.

Using your example of 37+37+37=111 dmg in 6 seconds. Is that alot of dmg? NO. You did not mention SS having any effect on adjacent foes. You purely stated SS triggering twice on foe #1 and once on Foe #2. Therefore 111dmg on "2" foes in 6 seconds is NOTHING. 74dmg on 1 target and 37 on another is nothing. They aren't gonna die anytime soon. If they do die fast it's not because of your SS, someone else is picking up the slack. Only time SS can be considered strong is when a mob bundles up together such as the old days when the "book trick" still worked and people were gathering to farm Sorrow's Furnace. I have an SS necro. I'm not being Biased here for the record. As stated by Ensign, if your team is strong enough to kill foes in under 6 seconds flat your SS ain't gonna trigger enough times to amount to any form of "big dmg". SS requires time to be effective hence "damage over time". You can say that when SS triggers everyone adjacent to target foe will also be hit with SS. That my friend requires the right situation where a large sum of foes is gathered closely together. How often does this happen? If you're in a full human party I highly doubt you the SS Necro are the one to control aggro and where they should be.

I repeat "Damage Over Time". <--- Get it? You may nitpick through my post for flaws in a particular sentence if you have nothing better to do but I'll just reply with this, "Damage Over Time".

P.S. I love my Necro and by no means am I trashing my Necro but I really felt I needed to say something.

The Great Al · Oct 20, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

I'm glad I wasn't the only person who thinks that SS is somewhat overrated/not as useful as it might seem. I think the problem (and I have said this before) lies in the fact that, because 'energy storage' is our primary attribute, Anet decided to raise the energy cost of our spells (without raising the actual damage as compared to other professions). Necros have their primary, and don't have any other energy management skills in their bar. Dervishes have their primary, and probably wont have any other energy management in their bar. Same with Rangers. Elementalists, with their energy storage alone, are nothing. We are also the only class (I think..) with exhaustion. The only elem spell that is deserving of exhaustion is obsidian flame. The rest..just adding insult to injury. Meteor shower - 5 second cast time, 25 mana, long recharge...and does like ~100 elemental damage and a KD, before everyone runs out of its AoE.

Mesmer in Need · Oct 20, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

an mm can get fron weak to strong real quick. 1 kill one person, make a minion, increasing your strength. kill the second enemy faster, make a minion. 3 person- even faster. ect. you only need a war to kill one or two poeple before a couple of the minions start doing damage. its like a flash mob.

Ensign · Oct 20, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Disclaimer: I run Frenzy in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

And why would a SS put SS on a target that is dying? I think you are missing the point here.

Re-read. Putting Spiteful Spirit on a target that is adjacent to targets that are being blasted is fairly weak as well. Spiteful is only valuable as a softening up tool on a clumped up portion of the mob that you are not attacking. However I feel that this is the weakest form of damage available and I'm not going to bring a character along solely to deal it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If your worry is that a 2 second cast spell takes to long to do damage

Not a 2 second spell, a 2 second DoT spell. There is a huge difference between the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Where are you getting "600" damage as a requirement? To have a number like this there must me more factors involved than simply how many enemies and how many monks you have.

Back of napkin style calculation - six level 24 enemies have roughly 560 HP each, you have offensive professions (assuming two Monks), mob with no damage dealers or self healing, divide the HP burden onto your team evenly for 560 per person, round up for Spiteful Necro. Characters that provide more utility or focused damage are acceptable on lower damage loads - characters that provide minimal utility need to deal more damage to compensate for their lack of tools.

Hence, team of 8 vs 6 level 24 mobs, I want 600 damage out of a Spiteful Necro, and that simply doesn't happen on a good team. On a bad team, that will easily happen, and the character is worthwhile. This is entirely a consequence of it being a DoT spell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

You keep telling me how "slow" SS is, but you have yet to tell me of a faster alternative!

Sure I have. To repeat - physicals of all varieties. Minions. Characters that buff physicals. Elementalists, in as much as they go in a Monk slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I asked you to specify what instant hit spell can do more damage than SS and be able to be recast just as quickly if not faster than SS.

Without getting out of the line, I've gotten a lot more milage out of Desecrate Enchantments than Spiteful Spirit. You can even take a clone with chapter 2 and dupe it.

Why do I need to name better spells? If I haven't made it abundantly clear yet I do not like casters in aggressive roles for PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

so I'm really not seeing how SS is "slow". SS is triggered on each action by an enemy

You want me to explain how a spell that has no instantaneous effect and requires repeated triggers for it to do anything is slow?

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I said IN GENERAL. Cyclone axe and Hundred Blades like skills are nice, but are restricted to melee range.

Let me get this straight, you get to take a character that is a one-skill trick, but I can't mention physicals using their own assortment of skills to deal multi-target damage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Concentrated damage is NOT necessarily better.

Concentrated damage is *always* better, it is only inequality in the amount of damage that makes for interesting comparisons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I think you might have missed the point with your smart ass comment.

No, I think we just live in different worlds. You live in one where killing things is hard. I live in one where I don't think that minions are that good, because they waste too much time running between mobs. They can be somewhat useful as chaff, but you have to get used to leaving a lot of bodies on the ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Well in your uber group apperently everything is dying before a 2 second spell can be cast

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

and do any damage

Do enough damage to justify lugging him along, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

shutdown

Hi, I bring Monks on my team. They know how to remove these things! It's pretty awesome. Warrior gets blinded, blind comes off, warrior kills thing that blinded him. Mobs do not use hexes in quantities that make them stick. Caster shutdown, same deal. It's all easily removed, mobs don't make it stick. These professions get to run at full steam basically.

When all your guys run at full steam, physicals beat everything down messily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Some enemies pwn casters, some enemies pwn physical damage dealers.

Red dots don't 'pwn' anyone. Red dots explode into piles of loot and happy green numbers. Red dots get pwned, they do not pwn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

but a barrage ranger generally has little more than an interupt that cannot be used when he is spamming barrage.

Build a better Barrage bar then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

An SS also has Shivers

Shivvers is needed by bad teams to kill Monk bosses. Strong teams don't need any help to drop Monk bosses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Have you never encountered an area where you were able to kill enemies behind closed doors?

Yeah. It's faster to open the doors and kill everything on the other side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If you run with nothing but tanks and barrage rangers, your group will be be left spinning their tires in the mud against evasive/blocking enemies.

I will give you that if you encounter a group composed entirely of mobs with block stances, that an all physical team will encounter a speed bump of proportional duration to the length of the shortest block stance, if they don't bring Wild Blow. I don't know what mob in this game is composed entirely of creatures with block stances though.

Peace,
-CxE

XvArchonvX · Oct 20, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

If ANYTHING dies in under 6 seconds someone MUST be pulling their weight and it won't be the SS Necro by a long shot because quite frankly most things don't just die on their own. (Dying Nightmares is an exception of course) This argument of yours is flawed.

Using your example of 37+37+37=111 dmg in 6 seconds. Is that alot of dmg? NO. You did not mention SS having any effect on adjacent foes. You purely stated SS triggering twice on foe #1 and once on Foe #2. Therefore 111dmg on "2" foes in 6 seconds is NOTHING. 74dmg on 1 target and 37 on another is nothing. They aren't gonna die anytime soon. If they do die fast it's not because of your SS, someone else is picking up the slack. Only time SS can be considered strong is when a mob bundles up together such as the old days when the "book trick" still worked and people were gathering to farm Sorrow's Furnace. I have an SS necro. I'm not being Biased here for the record. As stated by Ensign, if your team is strong enough to kill foes in under 6 seconds flat your SS ain't gonna trigger enough times to amount to any form of "big dmg". SS requires time to be effective hence "damage over time". You can say that when SS triggers everyone adjacent to target foe will also be hit with SS. That my friend requires the right situation where a large sum of foes is gathered closely together. How often does this happen? If you're in a full human party I highly doubt you the SS Necro are the one to control aggro and where they should be.

I repeat "Damage Over Time". <--- Get it? You may nitpick through my post for flaws in a particular sentence if you have nothing better to do but I'll just reply with this, "Damage Over Time".

P.S. I love my Necro and by no means am I trashing my Necro but I really felt I needed to say something.

I think you were missing the point of my example. The number I posted was based on a worst case scenario and assumed that there was a group that could take down any enemy in 6 seconds. I'm not trying to say that SS is the end all AoE damage skill, but it is worth it's merit to be worthy even in a "good team".

Quote:

Originally Posted by mesmer in need

an mm can get fron weak to strong real quick. 1 kill one person, make a minion, increasing your strength. kill the second enemy faster, make a minion. 3 person- even faster. ect. you only need a war to kill one or two poeple before a couple of the minions start doing damage. its like a flash mob.

one level 18 bone fiend does not equal one lvl 20-24 enemy, but a MM can get become incredibly strong in credibly quickly.

Ensign · Oct 20, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

I don't hate Spiteful Spirit BTW. I think it's a fine skill to take into a weaker group or straight PUG. It does contain some very slow, but effective tools for killing mobs that weak players will have trouble with. It will eventually kill things even if your team cannot. I just don't think it's all that good on a good team, as it doesn't help you blast through things or stabilize. It's good when you're slow, great when your team needs lots of help, but relatively poor when you're blazing through things.

Peace,
-CxE

Phades · Oct 20, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Let me put it this way, SS takes 2 seconds to cast. It takes a ranger 2 seconds to fire one shot (1.5 under an IAS) and will take about 2 seconds for the warrior to run up to the mob and start attacking, so I'm really not seeing how SS is "slow".

Considering that the actual positioning of the characters matter, the necro can't be in range to begin casting at the same time the warriors are moving into position. Mob splits and aggro deviation are a pain, especially when warriors are still closing the gap. A ranger can strike initially due to the range bonus the long bows class weapons have. Then you also have to figure in that the attacks are landing the damage is being caused, not as a reactionary measure some time after casting has been completed. When you get a group of people who are capable of spiking down a target in under 3-5s timeframe such damage over time placements begin to seem pointless. Damage bonus stacks from attack skills like cyclone axe, barrage, and triple chop/hundred blades, when combined with things like orders create this kind of situation. It is not so dissimilar when comparing the old style ranger spike setups under dual orders when comared to any purely spell based damage spike.

To put it another way, you are looking at +52 damage via cyclone axe and triple chop per warrior in up front damage that doesnt include the basic weapon properties or mods(15 skill level). Then you are looking at another +32-34 damage from orders per warrior per target struck (15-16 skill level). So, if pure damage is the goal under that situation, you are looking at +90-92 damage per warrior used with almost a guarenteed follow up of executioners immediately afterwards (assuming dark fury). Barrage doesnt look as impressive with only +74-76 damage under the similar circumstances, but allows for other options like interupt follow ups, dual shot spiking, pet options, and not getting stuck on each other moving to a target and being able to repeate the attack often. Figuring in actual weapon damage, the numbers just go up, but also get mitigated heavier by higher level monsters. Even so, just the barrage user under orders looks more impressive than the spiteful spirit user when only comparing the armor ignoring damage.