Curse

Thom Bangalter · Oct 16, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by poiu

What is your problem? If you don't like eles, don't take them in your team.
I completely disagree with this topic. THIS IS A TEAM GAME. We are supposed to help each other and work as a team for best results. This is also a tactic game, game for intelligent people. What shall mean "best damage dealer". Ok - try to play only with a war or ss - will they achieve fast and effective kills without other supporting classes in the game?
Ele is one of the amazing profesions in GW. There are 4 types of playing ele in pve and 2 types of playing ele in pvp - and these are only the basic.
They do good damage, have many supportive skills and easily CAN CONTROL THE BATTLE, if we talk for a decent player. And one last thing - when AN decide to enter in the game a good energy management skill such as Ether Prodigy, whis is non-elite, we will talk again for the best damage dealer in GW

I Realized this post was directed at me after I read the poorly constructed last sentence and then scrolled up to see who he was responding to.

Actually, I love elementalists, they're easily my favorite profession to play. They have great utility skills, a few decent damage skills, and lots of energy to do everything with. However, The topic of this thread is "Do Eles suck as damage dealers?" and currently, the answer is yes. They're great at spamming heal party, and can pack all kinds of utility (wards, aegis, draw conditions) and do fairly decent spike damage as the past GVG season has shown us (thanks for nerfing ritualists Anet!). I think you misinterpreted my original post, as I pretty much agree with your points.

When you get down to it though, most balanced teams in PVP are about keeping warriors clean or buffed enough to destroy the other team (as well as shutting down the other team through physical pressure, hexes, or energy denial). Until elementalists get real skills that can put significant pressure on the other team (sandstorm does look really good in HA by the way, and I'm sure it worked wonders in alliance battles) they're relegated to mitigating damage through heal party, wards, aegis, and blinding flash.

TadaceAce · Oct 16, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiRi

Eles do notneed a buff, The damage they can put out can be insane.

The only way eles do a lot of damage is if there is a big group of guys gathered together and you have a full bar of AE skills. Since that is rare, overall they do crap damage. As far as air, they still do crap. A dual attunement air ele just spamming shit does about the sustained damage of a wammo.

I changed my ele to prodigy healer just to get him through factions, the damage was just too depressing.

poiu · Oct 17, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

First of all I agree with you post.
Second:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

"Do Eles suck as damage dealers?" and currently, the answer is yes.

Eles are damage dealers although they are not the best damage dealers. That shall not make them "suck". Do you see the contradiction and the stupidity of this "sucking" statement?
So eles have a few decent damage skills and multiple utility skills. That's perfect. They are very dangerous class if they know how to combine all this. And the words "dangerous" and "damage" often are related.

P.S. About bad "consrtucted last sentence" - I am not supposed to know 5 languages perfectly to play GW, right?

Thom Bangalter · Oct 17, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Sorry about unintentionally criticizing your language skills, I barely comprehend language, but I make the assumption that people who post here are all american or canadian.

I still maintain that they suck at damage, because I believe all classes suck at damage besides warriors--I'm talking about raw constant damage, not spike damage. I still maintain that this entire game is about getting your warriors in a position where they kill all 8 opponents, with assist damage thrown in from orbs/fireball/surge/shatter/etc.

Katari · Oct 17, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Eles suck at dealing damage compaired to necros and rangers as well. In the situations where eles are "ok" at dealing damage, other classes are better (necros, barragers, etc...). Given the playstyle of 99% of PUG eles (F-Storm, Searing Heat, GoR 'Super Nukers"

) , I'd rather take a sin in my party than an ele.

Hammas Peikko · Oct 17, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

What if you would use skill named DOUBLE DRAGON with doublr dragon u make kills after kills, maybe makes exhaustion but still its awesome, you ever heard immolate?????? 45 fire dmg burning 2 secs
inferno and phoenix too
and put energy storage to 20 and fire magig to 20. buy fire aura and buy suprerior runes, go to PvP battle and enjoy... if that suck take lightning

Ermac · Oct 17, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

^ You are a disgrace to Finland, Hammas peikko.

Tongloid Tarthwood · Oct 17, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

I've found fire eles really have a place set out for them in AB. Think about, for killing npcs, fire eles have it easy. One meteor shower, a fireball and a meteor and then just stand there for 30 seconds and you've captured yourself a pretty darn good control point.

Anything else PvP, go air!

Thom Bangalter · Oct 17, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

The only reason you need air is for blinding flash, you can easily still run fire and just spec into flash. Though....E/A mindshock with shadow of haste and dash is a ton of fun.

LightningHell · Oct 18, 2006, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Well, there IS Gale, but that's even more splashable than Flash.

jesh · Oct 18, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by I pwnd U

Sometimes people need to just think outside of the box to figure out ways to make their character better.

Like what? This is where you run into a wall with the Elementalist class. There isn't jack you can do besides run curses or something almost as rediculous. (Heal Party)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Fortunately, the situations set where Spiteful Spirit is effective is virtually identical to the situation set where AoE is effective - clumped up mobs. Barring bad target selection or lack of covers, Spiteful Spirit is the single best AoE skill in the game. Unfortunately, that character offers little else to a team and I don't care for him as a result.

Ensign, I doubt I'm alone in worshipping your insight on this game, but what is with this statement? It's not like Enfeebling Blood is a useless skill. It's not like Sympathetic and Ancestor's Visage are wasted skill slots..

Quote:

Originally Posted by poiu

Eles are damage dealers although they are not the best damage dealers. That shall not make them "suck".

To everyone who made statements like this:
Elementalists have the worst damage in the game! Every other class can do more. How do they not suck!? Mesmers in PvE? Yes please! I'll take a PP+Shatter over anything an Elementalist with primary skills can do, that's not even counting Energy Surge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryuko

True, being an ele is about more than just throwing Meteor Showers everywhere. But I've found that ele's are anything but useless as damage source. If you find that your damage output is still not good enough, tweak your build, as said before. Try skills that go good with a knockdown if you insist on using MS, like Bed of Coals. Make sure you're not out of energy after you've cast two or three spells, etc.

Now for my ideas on what can be done about the Elementalist class.
I think the main problem is you can't *tweak* anymore than getting 16 in your element and hoping for the best. Elementalists can't augment their attacks like rangers, warriors, assassins, and soon; paragons and dervishes can. This is why Elementalists are bad, not because Meteor Shower by itself is weak.

If you ask me, ANet could solve this by buffing Glyphs and making them stackable - like an Order for a warrior if you will.. Elementalists would become very comparable, I think, if they could augment their damage as easily as all of the weapon classes can.
Will Anet cause this come about? Not likely.

poiu · Oct 18, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Elementalists have the worst damage in the game! Every other class can do more. How do they not suck!?

I will not enter in dispute with this statement. You are free to think and write everything. I will believe only to my eyes. You are talking for PvE:
The chain: MS /knockdown/, Rodgort's Invocation /3sec-6hp degeneration/, Incendiary Bonds /after 3 sec -6 hp degeneration/, Fireball, and the respective damage from all of these, works fine for me. I easily do the missions and quests of the two continents, every farming group easily accepts me. It is perfect that I have also other possibilities for builds in pve depending on the goal, the area and the mobs. So I like eles.
You are talking for a pve mesmer:
Well I will not enter in your "sucking" style. But try enter into a farming group - tell them that you are damage dealer and can make damage better and more effective than the eles

I am "sure" that you will be accepted

.

I wiil state again the following: Eles will be in possion to use perfect skills as Water Trident once AN enter a good non-elite energy management skill similar to Ether Prodigy. That's the problem of eles - they are binded to use only elite skills that are connected with energy management.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 18, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

farming groups follow the traditional rediculous style of PvE where you have a "tank" with dolyak signet and watch yourself and other stupid crap, possibly a bonder, and a nuker...Play pvp and then you'll understand. MS+Rodgorts+Incendiary bonds is really inefficient, as much as I hate to say it, and I'd rather take a whammo with cleave. The only thing it really provides is large aggro control and some disruption. You know what else does that, but for some reason no one uses it? Smiting.

@Jesh: I hope you're kidding about enfeebling blood, sympathetic visage, and ancestor's visage. Also, heal party is on an elementalist is really the only place to put it, unless it was 2 months ago and you ran 3 monk backlines in ha.

poiu · Oct 18, 2006, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

farming groups follow the traditional rediculous style of PvE where you have a "tank" with dolyak signet and watch yourself and other stupid crap, possibly a bonder, and a nuker...Play pvp and then you'll understand. MS+Rodgorts+Incendiary bonds is really inefficient, as much as I hate to say it, and I'd rather take a whammo with cleave. The only thing it really provides is large aggro control and some disruption. You know what else does that, but for some reason no one uses it? Smiting.

I am talking for farming groups because they are formed by few players, they have tactics and every player has a concrete role. Why these groups are successful and who is the damage dealer in them /or one of the damage dealers/? Of course that is for PvE.

Hehe - I play pvp also, mainly GvG with my ele. But the guy was talking for the "dangerous" damage dealer mesmer in PvE.
Well I am happy with my ele also in PvP - of course there I play supportive or running role, participate in spiking, spam heal party and so on /it is unnecessary to explain to you/. I will evade the word "suck" for the damage which make the ele in pvp also. Because the team and the results as a team are more important to me.

Ensign · Oct 18, 2006, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

but what is with this statement? It's not like Enfeebling Blood is a useless skill. It's not like Sympathetic and Ancestor's Visage are wasted skill slots..

I like Enfeebling Blood. What I'm talking about is the standard Arcane Echo / Spiteful Spirit template. After Arcane Echo, 2x Spiteful, and Reckless Haste the guy is sitting really close to empty on energy and isn't going to contribute much more. Sure he can swap up focuses to get a bit more out, but I'm not about to wait for him to recharge before going to the next mob. Note that I hate Arcane Echo / Spiteful for that as well - hell if I'm waiting a minute between mobs for him to get Arcane Echo up again. Now sure, I love Enfeebling Blood and other sorts of mes effects - I'll run Enervating Charge on an Ele for many of the same reasons - but I'm only used to that Necro having energy for it if it's the second Necro, alongside a Minion guy. Do I *really* want a second Necro on the team, though, and how much of a benefit is that mes effect when you already have minions acting as a damage sponge?

Basically every caster that I put on a team has to contribute something really, really good, otherwise why bother bringing him over another physical? Spiteful is OK, but I don't think it's so money that it's worth a character slot - it's not just an elite, it's an energy hog of an elite. Part of this also comes from how slow the skill is, it takes a lot of time for it to start pulling its weight, and when you're powering through PvE things just don't last long enough for Spiteful to really get nuts. Spiteful has to actually trigger three times before it'll outperform Fireball, after all...and if you're melting things with Warriors that is rarely the case.

Sympathetic Visage is useless. Why energy deny mobs when you can just kill them? It's used for Underworld farming as part of a trick to make Spiteful Spirit stick against Smite Crawlers and to make Grasps stop interrupting...but that's a specialized usage that exists solely because of the desire to 2-man farm. In a larger team the skill is straight-up dead.

Peace,
-CxE

Cebe · Oct 18, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

*Bangs head off desk*

Is this thread STILL here?

Have people not managed to settle the debate and come to the conclusion that eles are fantastic damage dealers? Elementalists can apply themselves to many situations, for example, I started off as water for Riverside Province...realised it didn't work, so went air. With the extra armor penetration the white mantle warriors just dropped. When fighting up snake dance to "do in" Maw the Mountain Heart I chose to use earth...why? Because of Ward of Stability. With that I can merrily cast away many devastating earth skills while the tundra giants 'try' to knock me down.

If you're not dealing enough damage....change your build, or even the magic you use.

*lemming* · Oct 18, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

*Bangs head off desk*

Is this thread STILL here?

Have people not managed to settle the debate and come to the conclusion that eles are fantastic damage dealers? Elementalists can apply themselves to many situations, for example, I started off as water for Riverside Province...realised it didn't work, so went air. With the extra armor penetration the white mantle warriors just dropped. When fighting up snake dance to "do in" Maw the Mountain Heart I chose to use earth...why? Because of Ward of Stability. With that I can merrily cast away many devastating earth skills while the tundra giants 'try' to knock me down.

If you're not dealing enough damage....change your build, or even the magic you use.

Did you even read the thread?

Thom Bangalter · Oct 18, 2006, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Mesmers and necros are largely useless in pve, because they contribute very, very little to teams. They are very specialized classes for certain aspects of farming, and of course pve. I don't see the reasoning behind bringing phantom pain+shatter except in some sort of caster spike (oh how I hate spikes).

@poiu: again, a highly specialized role used only for farming. The damage still isn't that great, but you're simply using it because your warrior is too busy building his bar around not dying, so your damage has to come from somewhere, hence fire eles. And as far as pvp is concerned, the damage is kind of sucky. You're certainly not there to put the beatdown, just to supplement, and that is the downfall of the ele. The damage is supplemental and very easy to prot against, so you're mostly there for a spike or to put all damage on a target, and because you have to have utility somewhere, and their energy pool makes them able to pull off all those 15 energy spells a monk sure as hell could never afford.

Cebe · Oct 18, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

Did you even read the thread?

Umm lemme think....yes! There seems to be an awful lot of bad feeling towards elementalists...except by those people who play one well and know what they are capable of. My feeling is a lot of people try to play fire thinking it's going to be great and...when I tried it...it just seems very very non-descript - thus I can sympathise with this post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reza

FIRE???!!!
u wanna do some real dmg on a single foe? AIR!
u wanna do area of effect dmg and protect yourself too? EARTH!
u wanna help other ele do ore dmg by keeping foes in area of effect? WATER!
u wanna be fire ele? JUST DONT DO IT!

*waits for flames to stop*
No, I'm not saying fire is useless...just imo...very boring. I feel for successful use of fire we should look at the great Shiro'Ken Elementalists! Who else would be mental enough to use Burning Speed but a big-ass dragon! Some of the more powerful fire skills, as useful as they can be...tend not to be...I'm thinking of Meteor Shower. By the time you've cast it the team has either killed everything...or all the enemies move out of it pretty darn quick. Rodgort's Invocation is a spell I actually quite like but it is very easily interruptable. When I was playing as my mesmer in Fort Aspenwood I interrupted an ele trying to cast meteor shower and rodgort's invocation on me...if I was her I would have used air and pounded the crap outta the pesky mesmer fairly darn quick.

Tbh, it doesn't take much reading of this thread to make the point that people just seem to hung up on specific builds. I have now sampled all sorts of magic and builds with my ele and almost have all the factions and prophecies elite and non elite skills..People should be more open minded...and having just bought a lot of new fire skills I am willing to trial fire for a second time.

I have noticed people mentioning that mobs have a lot of elemental armor. Well, yes, usually they do...but in my experience this elemental armor is against specific elements....so a quick change of build is all that is needed to see them off. I feel that an experienced elementalist without sufficient skills to apply themselves to any particular scenario is slightly poor.

Ok, as for the mesmer and necro debate which now appears to be happening...though I am not sure why in a thread about elementalists... (I always thought threads which went off-topic were closed) ...I love my mesmer and she is fantastic in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Mesmers and necros are largely useless in pve, because they contribute very, very little to teams.

I do disagree to this, if that's ok! I'm noticing a lot of people asking for Minion Masters in PvE...and I do feel that in a lot of situations they make a great difference. My mesmer, unfortunately, is targeted frequently by mobs in PvE which does annoy me, but when they leave her alone I can degen, interrupt, and slow down mobs with great ease...thus making it easier for them to be killed. I see mesmers to be more of a support character...and if support characters are not needed then perhaps we should do away with all monks? (if only!)

The thing that makes me sad about the use of mesmers is people do not realise what they are capable of. When I help alliance members out in Boreas Seabed, anyone who joins the team freaks out if there are no rangers....never mind the mesmer with 3 or 4 interrupts at her disposal! As for Necros, I see and understand the point about echoed Spiteful Spirit being slow to cast, and using up too much of the necromancer's energy...but I went up to Dreadnaught's Drift with an echo-SS in the party and it worked very well. With my Ward of Stability and his echo-SS the tundra giants just dropped. As with everything though, it does work better on certain things...ie. those things that attack fast.

Hmmm...typed an awful lot just now, should probably stop!

Thom Bangalter · Oct 18, 2006, 10:05 AM // 10:05

I should edit my post to exclude minion masters, because they're good. But I have no interest in a mesmer when I could take a barrage ranger in their place. Savage shot is a lot better than just about every mesmer interrupt except for maybe cry of frustration and psychic distraction, plus they add spammable aoe damage, something I wish an ele could do.