Originally Posted by Ensign

Searing Heat has an 'In the Area' graphic but only hits Nearby, Firestorm and Meteor Shower have Nearby graphics but only hit Adjacent. It's been a year and a half and they haven't bothered to fix basic animations so I wouldn't expect new ones anytime soon, just know that this is how those skills work.

Peace,
-CxE

Originally Posted by Ensign

Rodgort's Invocation and Searing Heat are both "nearby" AoEs. The only "In the Area" damage AoEs are Energy Surge and Deep Freeze, to the best of my knowledge.

Originally Posted by Ensign

Warriors can kite just as effectively as anyone else - more effectively, even, because of an abundance of speed buffs. Warriors can't attack when kiting, but neither can anyone else. The difference being that Warriors don't have to kite for the most part, because they're such a pain to kill.

Originally Posted by Ensign

Focused fire upon a Warrior neutralizes Heal Party. However, it makes all of your Protection spell go absolutely bonkers. That's what the Monks are doing, spreading Prot around, right?

Originally Posted by Ensign

It does a pretty good job at killing a dozen archers that bunched up to tank the full brunt of a Meteor Shower, yeah. A hell of a good job at damaging people? No, not really. It's pretty bad at that actually. Tossing a Fireball to assist your Warriors is useful, and Rodgort's is ok when people are begging for it - bunching up in Wards and not applying any pressure - but otherwise you're better off sitting in the back casting Heal Party.

Originally Posted by Ensign

The guiding principle behind your playstyle, well, I have no idea what that is.

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Expoiting the targeting and movement AI of monsters perhaps? Or is that not a valid idea because you don't use it? Must be nice to be the arbiter of a valid strategys ingame. Thank god we have you to think for us so we never have to design builds or strategies of our own.

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

To a certain extent, it comes down to playstyle. From your posts, I get the sense that you have a thing for massive mobs of warriors beating the snot out everthing using snares and damage buffs to increase their effectiveness. That's great, and it works well in both PvP and PvE. I tend to have a thing for rangers and eles blowing the crap out of things from afar. Both work, it just comes down to playstyle.

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

... relies on the winter not being killed, and relies on the both remembering to lay it down and speccing points into WS.... If he can find corpses.... They can, but that generally requires multiple players.....

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

An elementalist having major energy problems and needing time to regen is as bad as a warrior who frenzy + heal sigs under fire. Energy management is the most critical thing to playing an ele.

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I thought we only had one monk here. You''ve got only one monk and you're choosing prot?.

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I thought we only had one monk here. You''ve got only one monk and you're choosing prot?

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Problem being that if the warrior kites out of harms way, he can no longer attack from his new position.

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I thought we only had one monk here. You''ve got only one monk and you're choosing prot?

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Let me get this straight- MS was good at killing, and Rodgort's is apparently good to punish people for bunching in wards - but bad at damage?

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Expoiting the targeting and movement AI of monsters perhaps? Or is that not a valid idea because you don't use it?

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Problem being that if the warrior kites out of harms way, he can no longer attack from his new position. He has to move right back where he was to stick his sword into the eye of whatever was hitting him, making the whole thing an exercise in futility. Ranged classes do not have this problem. Let's say a big mob starts attacking player A. Player A gets out of there and mitigates most of the damage he would have received. Meanwhile, every other ranged player on the team pours fire into the enemies that are running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I thought we only had one monk here. You''ve got only one monk and you're choosing prot?

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Let me get this straight- MS was good at killing, and Rodgort's is apparently good to punish people for bunching in wards - but bad at damage? How on earth do you kill someone or punish a team without doing damage?

Originally Posted by masteroflife

not to burst ur bubble but ele still has the most damage output in the game. It all depends on your build. If you are a water ele, ur main job is not to deal damage but to stop enemy from kiting. If you are a earth ele, your main job is keep up your wards and occationally use earth quack + after shock, or OB flame. and don't tell me that doesn't do damage. If you are a air ele, you are suppose to be taking down the targets that warriors have a time time with like monks, or ritualist, or other warriors who block or evade, if you are fire, you are doing AOE damage. Starburst+FlameBurst = no damage? Think again. Drop a MS with gliph of sac and bed of coals = no damage? Think again.
I might be comming on too strong but i've only spoke the truth, play your build right.

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

additionally, just because an ele can do damage doesn't mean it's good, and completely counters what you say about eles having the best damage output in the game, masteroflife.

I always have trouble with posts like this because you can't seem to keep the fans of orison turrets and glyph nukers out of it.

I suppose in theory you could say water eles have the best damage output in the game because you can snare a foe and have the warrior beat his face in, but that's stupid.

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

*Shrug* I've never really been bothered by a lack of damage on my ele. Air is great for single target damage most of the game. Fire gets impressive DPS IF you can hit 2-3 enemies with every cast, which isn't as unlikely as it sounds for a good ele. In the prophecies endgame, a water ele can do impressive damage to the titans. I never understood why everyone insisted on going fire with a ranger with winter as backup.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Why does everyone use water eles in Prophecies endgame and load themselves with 7 water skills while the ranger, hopefully using Barrage, would be pumping out quite a bit more damage? Pumping out Heal Party is so much better.

The factions endgame was a bit rougher and I was relegated to a more utililty role there, focusing on continual mass burning or toying around with epidemic or fevered dreams. Also, to go against all common knowlege, anyone not bringing a AoE damage over time spell is completely missing out on good times. Enemies running around like morons? Yes please.

I haven't played Factions yet, but...Enemies running around like morons? /shiver

Eles tend to have problems when played poorly, no offense to the OP. Throwing flare on your bar will make you feel more useless than a minion master fighting jade armors. Forgetting heavy duty energy management will make you run out of gas quickly. The entire water line will suck damage-wise in most situations.

Yes, the entire water line will suck damage-wise in most situations. Hell, if you talk about it, Air isn't any good in PvE, Earth is only good in solofarming, Fire is overrated as hell and only really has like one or two energy-effective spells...Fireball, and Immolate, possibly Rodgort's.

Fark defense, chuck a high radius AoE DoT on the monk, then blow then spike the crap out of everything else while the monk runs around. I generally believe that if you're wasting time blinding physicals and throwing out heal parties, you're killing way too slow.

It's my opinion that if you're wasting time blinding physicals and throwing out heal parties, your Warriors are probably decimating everything else, your monks aren't dead health or energywise, and you'll have a lot less problems. Unless you're playing with Henchmen, of which playing as a damage-dealer as an ele is mainly an illusion as it's the henchmen who pump out the damage anyway, speaking from experience.

Now that I think more about it, one of the big reasons why most people don't think eles do much damage is the abysmmal echo nuker build. It's a very defenseive buidl that relies on a tank carefully managing aggro, then sneaking in and scattering that aggro with a couple of small radius nukes every 60 seconds. In the end, you pump out a very small amount of DPS and a few poorly timed knockdowns. I'll take tenai's heat any day over MS.

Now that I think about it, the echo nuker - or, as I like it more, renewal nuker - is what the vast majority of the PvE populace want. It's actually the best build around, as people think it's for damage while it's actually for the periodical knockdowns. And just as a side note; Meteor Shower DOES NOT SCATTER. Teinai's Heat, or Searing Heat, it's Prophecies counterpart, DOES scatter.

The role of a fire ele is crowd control, not single target damage, similar to a barrage ranger. Against single targets, both could be replaced by other classes or builds for an increase in DPS. The popularity of these builds comes from their power when it counts. Both these builds have a large increase in DPS against large mobs. Do either of them beat a frenzy warrior with OoP up spamming cyclone axe? Probably not, but then again, nothing does. In addition, that warrior requires a necro to keep OoP up and a monk to keep him from dying, as melee combat tends to increase damage taken. Both the ele and the ranger unsupported DO significantly beat Stefan the power attack spammer or your average healing breeze wammo.

Well, I rather have a few of those cyclone axe-spamming warriors, an order necro, a HP-spamming ele, and a monk, rather than your Teinai's Heat-whatever fire eles.But let's return to another point...WHY ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE STEFAN OR AN AVERAGE HEALING BREEZE WAMMO FOR DAMAGE COMPARISON PURPOSES?

To make a more personal attack, what the hell was that fire ele doing in your match vs. Te in championship if not doing damage? Keeping you warm?

Spamming Heal Party, presumably.

The ele is a modular addition to the party. A good one will rarely require healing, BiPing, or any other kind of attention. This makes it popular in PuGs where teamwork is at a minimum.

True; I spam Heal Party wayyyyy back with mine!

Another point for the use of eles in PvE is elemental weakness. Although rarely exploited ingame, many enemies have elemental weaknesses that double damage. The damage done quickly becomes staggering.

No shit, but then, you could as easily kick out the Orders necro, and take Warriors/Rangers with elemental mods.

I firmly believe that an ele who believes his job is to spam searing heat is playing in fort aspenwood or jade quarry. It's a tool in PvE, not a beat-all end-all skill.

I can't comment because of me not having Factions.

Don't get me wrong here, I never invite so called "nukers" to my party who do nothing but cast MS once every 60 seconds. I simply believe there is a role for eles beyond HP and ward bitch.

Of course; there's also Blinding Flash.

Finally, I don't particulary appreciate the implication that I'm a moron who's never played other classes. I'm fully aware of what other classes are capable of.

Well, you sure don't look like it.

And I will laugh like a naked teenager in a field full of pussywillows as your warriors attempt to throw their melee weapons at Kunnie.

...

In this case, I primarily mean the dramatic increase in DPS for an ele while facing crowds.

Everything you mentioned for other classes has the "adjacent" AoE. Rodgort's, the crown jewel of fire that belongs on every fire skillbar anywhere ever, has a much larger AoE. "In the Area" if memory serves. Searing heat and eruption have the same AoE, which makes them pretty gosh darn decent. I also can't say I don't get a little excited when I look at searing flames in Nightfall.

FIX SKILL DESCRIPTS FTW

And, factoring the real AoEs, they still aren't very attractive...

SS, nice as it is, has a few drawbacks- it can be removed (unlikely in PvE). The target can stop attacking (unlikely in PvE with good target selection). The target can move away from the nice bunch you threw it in (reasonably likely, but still controllable). The target can die before the rest of the mob wasting a lot of the power of the hex. (Most likely in PvE). At any rate, it's situational.

Well, if they're stupid enough to focus fire on the target with SS on it, then they deserve SS getting stripped.

The warrior AoEs have the same problem. They require your warrior to position himself dead in the middle of a mob and swing away. While a warrior is at home with that many baddies around, it can be rough getting in position, especially if the baddies move.

Aggro control and no idiotic fire eles around ftw

Barrage is a great skill against groups, albeit a small AoE. I'll admit that I usually want my rangers focusing on high single target damage in PvE though.

I strongly disagree with you here. The warrior negates the ability to kite in exchange for greater armor and the best DPS. In addition, warriors invite focus fire on themselves, which tends to compound the problem of healing them. Take all ranger parties as an example. Let's go beyond the typical B/P party as well. The mobs generally have more trouble picking a target, and will spread out their damage enough that incremental self heals will compensate. In addition, the melee mobs take more time to start attacking, and are often dead before they even get close. Don't believe me? Try creating a few parties without any designated tanks and tell everyone that it's ok to run away. it works disturbingly well.

...

Warriors CAN kite if they want to. But who would want to punch through them anyway?

No, it's not in the build to primarily damage people, but it sure as hell did a good job of it eh?

Against Archers, yes.

To a certain extent, it comes down to playstyle. From your posts, I get the sense that you have a thing for massive mobs of warriors beating the snot out everthing using snares and damage buffs to increase their effectiveness. That's great, and it works well in both PvP and PvE. I tend to have a thing for rangers and eles blowing the crap out of things from afar. Both work, it just comes down to playstyle.

...Ah. Well, just to notify you that the ranger does it better...

Fire + Winter works fine, but usually requires 2 players, relies on the winter not being killed, and relies on the both remembering to lay it down and speccing points into WS. It's fine, but why not just do it more simply and spec water to begin with?

Fire + Winter works fine, mainly because the Winter spirit isn't supposed to be right next to the tank and screaming "COME AND KILL ME!", speccing points into WS is usually done for Troll Unguent anyway, and you can just have players who have brains and put down the spirit every time it recharges. But yes, it IS a hell lot of a hassle, and it isn't worth it, so...

GET YOUR BARRAGE RANGER AN ICY BOWSTRING.

If he can find corpses. It's conditional, much more so than ele damage.

When in PvE did you have trouble killing monsters with warriors alone? MMs just quicken the process later on.

They can, but that generally requires multiple players. Critical barragers are a waste of time.

Isn't a team consisting of "multiple players"?

And yes, Critical barragers are a waste of time, but hey, they're better than your average PvE assassin.

An elementalist having major energy problems and needing time to regen is as bad as a warrior who frenzy + heal sigs under fire. Energy management is the most critical thing to playing an ele.

Uh, not really. Ether Prodigy...

The same could be said for any class in the game. Any build that focuses on nothing but doing damage is probably missing something.

<3 Warriors for damage only

My point still stands. They both hit a larger number of foes than any other AoE mentioned.

And if they hit a larger number of foes, and still suck, it means something is seriously wrong...

Problem being that if the warrior kites out of harms way, he can no longer attack from his new position. He has to move right back where he was to stick his sword into the eye of whatever was hitting him, making the whole thing an exercise in futility. Ranged classes do not have this problem. Let's say a big mob starts attacking player A. Player A gets out of there and mitigates most of the damage he would have received. Meanwhile, every other ranged player on the team pours fire into the enemies that are running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Well, you don't really NEED to run away as a Warrior...considering that I play with competent monks.

I thought we only had one monk here. You''ve got only one monk and you're choosing prot?

Hell yeah.

Let me get this straight- MS was good at killing, and Rodgort's is apparently good to punish people for bunching in wards - but bad at damage? How on earth do you kill someone or punish a team without doing damage?

Once-every-60 hihi.

25-e-and-conditional-worth-it-damage hihi.

Expoiting the targeting and movement AI of monsters perhaps? Or is that not a valid idea because you don't use it? Must be nice to be the arbiter of a valid strategys ingame. Thank god we have you to think for us so we never have to design builds or strategies of our own.

Seeing iQ did use it for killing those NPCs in the tourney, I wouldn't say it isn't valid, but it isn't really a good strategy in PvE.

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

On a slightly OT point, does anyone see a use for either Savannah Heat or Sandstorm as ward/alter clearers?

Originally Posted by Symbol

Does Sandstorm do armor ignoring damage? The skill description didn't specify "earth" IIRC.