Curse

LoyalSoldier · Aug 17, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

you are all wrong. I don't care what evidence you throw in here. The ele is still a key member on a team, no more valuable then any other profession.

Not really. An ele can be replaced quite easily. There isn't really anything they can do that other classes can't. Minus the wards.

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It's funny. Ensign says an ele is only good cause he looks good when compared to people who can't play other professions properly. Why wouldn't this be the case for an ele?

Because other profession do their damage in smaller and faster quanties. It takes more skill to streamline these attacks to get max DPS. It doesn't take a lot of skill to hit the metor shower button.

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So you folks have your little debate, people like me will play our eles, contribute to our teams and be competant. Sometimes I wonder how many of you actually play an ele and I also question whether some of you even still play the game.

Common Logically Folly. Just because a person is asking for a change doesn't mean they haven't adapted or aren't still playing. It is like saying because I know how to live in my septic tank doesn't mean I can't want something better.

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Flame away everyone but you really should spend more time in the game with an ele instead of arguing about their viability on a forum

Anyone else notice the irony in that statement?

Ensign · Aug 17, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Four warriors backed up by an orders. Utter devestation on PvE. Finding four warriors who actually understand that they are best off doing damage is hard.

Only four warriors?

I honestly don't feel that people should participate in these conversations until they've played on a 5 physical + Order team. The difference in power, even when just playing with pickups, is ridiculous.

Peace,
-CxE

Xpl0iter · Aug 17, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

arturo02
lets just say, u have no clue of what ur trying to argue about.

Lightninghell, i know u also have an ele

i was doing that just for fun.

Arturo02 · Aug 18, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

If I am out of my mind, then prove me wrong IN THE GAME. MY ign is Valentyne Odion. You play the ele and show me up. Show me how incompetant they are.

I'll be in game until around 3am est and on all weekend.

dgb · Aug 18, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Only four warriors?

I honestly don't feel that people should participate in these conversations until they've played on a 5 physical + Order team. The difference in power, even when just playing with pickups, is ridiculous.

Peace,
-CxE

We ran a minion master in the fifth slot but another warrior would wokr just as well.

I pwnd U · Aug 18, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

I will back Arturo up. I have seen him play ele and yes he can contribute greatly. I have seen many eles that are no where near as good because they dont TRY to be that good. They figure that they are not anymore then a supporting role Arturo has been our main damage dealer before and does a great job at it. Sometimes people need to just think outside of the box to figure out ways to make their character better.

Ensign · Aug 18, 2006, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

If I am out of my mind, then prove me wrong IN THE GAME. MY ign is Valentyne Odion. You play the ele and show me up. Show me how incompetant they are.

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

We ran a minion master in the fifth slot but another warrior would wokr just as well.

Not to knock minion masters, but I honestly they feel they slow you down. They have to stop and cast these long spells, and they don't run as fast between mobs because they're spamming BotM and stuff. It's a more relaxed playstyle, but seriously, 5 warriors is faster.

Peace,
-CxE

LightningHell · Aug 18, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by I pwnd U

I will back Arturo up. I have seen him play ele and yes he can contribute greatly. I have seen many eles that are no where near as good because they dont TRY to be that good. They figure that they are not anymore then a supporting role Arturo has been our main damage dealer before and does a great job at it. Sometimes people need to just think outside of the box to figure out ways to make their character better.

Seen a good warrior/SS (in PvE)/Smiting Monk/heck, even Ranger?

I contribute greatly by...Gale-ing and Blinding Flash?

Arturo02 · Aug 18, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Ensign were you testing your period button? It works btw. Cmon now, I agree with you on pvp, so show me in the game how I'm wrong as far as pve. Again, I will be more then happy to say I'm wrong right here in this thread.

gale and blinding flash? cmon those are kiddie pve ele skills. Honestly, there's really no point in running those skills in pve. Stuff dies too quick for the cost of using them.

The problem again, is most people aren't good at this game, so most people who play an ele will suck at it. And nobody can say I am wrong, that most people can play this game properly. All I have to say is one thing...pug. If most people were good at gw we'd have much better pugs.

dgb · Aug 18, 2006, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

Ensign were you testing your period button? It works btw. Cmon now, I agree with you on pvp, so show me in the game how I'm wrong as far as pve. Again, I will be more then happy to say I'm wrong right here in this thread.

gale and blinding flash? cmon those are kiddie pve ele skills. Honestly, there's really no point in running those skills in pve. Stuff dies too quick for the cost of using them.

The problem again, is most people aren't good at this game, so most people who play an ele will suck at it. And nobody can say I am wrong, that most people can play this game properly. All I have to say is one thing...pug. If most people were good at gw we'd have much better pugs.

Elementalists are a second class citizen in terms of good play in PvE. Their damage numbers don't add up. It's that simple. Their advantage is there is not much you can do wrong with a fireball. Do I like elementalists in my teams in PvE? No I don't because they don't do enough damage. You admit yourself that utility is not particularly necessary.

For the average PUG do eles work? Yes. It takes a lot to get an ele wrong and that is their strength. But if for some reason my guild wanted to clear out all of Cantha in minimum time possible would I want an elementalist in there? No. There would be five warriors, an orders and two monks. I suspect the same would be true for iQ. Meanwhile you put together your balanced build with the idea that all classes are relatively balanced. We'll see who has Shiro dead first. It will be the warrior team by a long way.

Can this be proven? I guess if you could convince Ensign et al. of iQ to get involved in such a pissing contest that they could prove it. However I suspect he has better things to do in Leipzig.

In short.

Elementalists are sub-standard damage dealers. They are clearly outclassed by Warriors, Necromancers and Rangers. They have a lot of utility use. Utility is comparatively weak in PvE against PvP.

The damage dealing part can be proven by numbers. The utility part is taken from your own statement.

Arturo02 · Aug 18, 2006, 09:21 AM // 09:21

so when I expect you in game to prove your point?

your insane if you think I honestly believe Ensign will jump in the game and prove me wrong. I'm sure he's a busy guy. But just because he is an authority on pvp doesn't mean I can't question him on pve. And a reply with three dots only begs a smart ass rebuttal.

so when can I expect you in game to prove me wrong dgb?

Xpl0iter · Aug 18, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Arturo02 and I Pwnd You

Listen. I will not repeat this Twice. As far as ele goes, PVE wise, is not much of an option. Your challenging me to do what against u? Let me know. I Have played ele since i started Guildwars and i know strengths and weakness related to Them.

Read what DGB Said above. Stop trying to make things look any better.
It is a fact. Face it.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

LightningHell · Aug 18, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

so when I expect you in game to prove your point?

your insane if you think I honestly believe Ensign will jump in the game and prove me wrong. I'm sure he's a busy guy. But just because he is an authority on pvp doesn't mean I can't question him on pve. And a reply with three dots only begs a smart ass rebuttal.

so when can I expect you in game to prove me wrong dgb?

Nothing.

Err, well, you could try playing (heck, or just have in your group) a semi-decent Warrior and compare the damage that YOU do to them. Meteor Shower is their whole point, and even then, not the damage - I want the knockdowns. I'd rather have a Warrior in their place, but it's hard to find a decent one.

And I see you haven't faced Willa the Unpleasant by PuG. 165 leavers and counting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

The problem again, is most people aren't good at this game, so most people who play an ele will suck at it. And nobody can say I am wrong, that most people can play this game properly. All I have to say is one thing...pug. If most people were good at gw we'd have much better pugs.

And, my Elementalist comrade, I hope a real Warrior will have a chance to bash your face and let you have your well-deserved dirt-nap after scarcely ten seconds of meeting your enemy team.

Oh, and to that comment, I couldn't resist...

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So you folks have your little debate, people like me will play our eles, contribute to our teams and be competant. Sometimes I wonder how many of you actually play an ele and I also question whether some of you even still play the game.

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Flame away everyone but you really should spend more time in the game with an ele instead of arguing about their viability on a forum

Most of us have played the Elementalist since we started Guild Wars - for me it's over a year ago.

Xpl0iter · Aug 18, 2006, 09:46 AM // 09:46

heh, nice one Lighting.

dgb · Aug 18, 2006, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

so when can I expect you in game to prove me wrong dgb?

Quite frankly, never. I've got better things to do than dedicating hours to ramming home a point to someone who is being obstinate. Go on beleiving your own little fantasy if you want, it's not correct and you do no harm to me by beleiving it.

On an ironical note you complain about the PUG quality earlier, but you yourself are contributing to the general level of ignorance in PVE PUGs by refusing to accept the hard numbers that everyone else does.

Master Fuhon · Aug 18, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

But cmon xploiter, the monsters' ai is notorious for bunching up in pve and they are prone to a good puller as well. The ele is not a second banana in pve. Sure, there are certain areas where aoe isn't as effective, but that is true for other professions' builds as well. It's just too easy to bunch up and kill mobs especially with the addition of some of the Factions skills.

You go as far as to completely contradict yourself within the same paragraph. The Ele is no 2nd banana in pve.... what about the tank? The tank does all the work of getting the characters to bunch up into that nice little ball that makes the Ele so effective. In a situation like this, most of the damage could be done by Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

you are all wrong. I don't care what evidence you throw in here. The ele is still a key member on a team, no more valuable then any other profession. For pve and also AB these days.

If everyone is wrong, how come you are attacking the weakest, most extreme part of the argument. Not being a key team member... people have spent so much time trying to dispell the myth that an elementalist is completely useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

And I play with a competant guild and alliance so I'm not making up for their inadequaces.

If you're talking about how people aren't as good as you are... where's the mention of you playing tankless to prove the Elementalist damage dealing superiority in PvE. You know, actually hitting the mobs with something like Rodgort's Invocation when they charge the group. Or timing meteor showers to hit a location where the mobs are likely to be bunched up in 8 seconds when the first meteor hits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

And I see you haven't faced Willa the Unpleasant by PuG. 165 leavers and counting.

We got Willa and another Mursaat monk in a four fiery dragon sword wielding W/Mo's in Thunderhead Keep once. Aura of Faith healing without disruption has downed many groups that I have been apart of while monking. Meteor Shower killed the regular monk, while I pinned down the boss repeatedly with Gale. Finished the battle victorious with 50 or so points in exhaustion. What was his comment about Gale being for PvE kiddies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

Flame away everyone but you really should spend more time in the game with an ele instead of arguing about their viability on a forum.

The collective knowledge of this group is enough to put together all the information anyone should need about Elementalists. Some players are playing in top-notch guild groups that breeze through PvE. I've played with PuGs, always dealing more damage than the SS necro for the simple fact that it's impossible to find both a good tank and a good SS in the same group. And in groups where both are good, the monk is probably spamming Heal Party and the meteor shower knockdown keeps the tank alive, and the group wipes and disbands shortly after starting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

If most people were good at gw we'd have much better pugs.

The bad PuGs are filled with people who don't care about wasting someone else's time, don't comprehend tactics or read skill descriptions, and have to run off and do stuff for their parents 5 minutes after missions start. Horrible PuGs are frequently led by elitists with similar attitudes to the one you're expressing right now. With modesty, usually comes the abilitly to recognize that you have a flaw that needs to be improved. You have a messy road ahead of you where you will gain the humility that you currently lack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

And nobody can say I am wrong.

You are so devastatingly wrong that the very circumstances you look for to confirm your wrongness don't even work. Is anyone here supposed to group with you, and automatically make your group better no matter what class we play as. Monks heal your fragile fire build from dying from poor positioning and kiting. Tanks do all the work of manipulating the mobs so your spells do all the damage. It's a team game. As far as I'm concerned, you shouldn't be so full of yourself from taking credit for the work other people are doing for you.

An elementalist survives in PvP by being able to cast Heal Pary, and survives in PvE by having the energy pool to run the large Glyph/Echo combination on Meteor Shower. Everything in between would be run by a fast cast mesmer if it weren't for the restrictions on Dual Attunements. Ele's do not have the same advantages that make a monk the best healer or the warrior the best damage soaker. There are very few skills that make the elementalist a superior choice over a mesmer/necro primary in PvE, because in case you didn't notice, PvP Rangers don't need max hammer mastery to be as annoying as a warrior in melee.

Ensign · Aug 18, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

Ensign were you testing your period button?

"..." is shorthand for "what you just said is so inane that I have been rendered speechless."

To chop it up in gory detail - you requested that *good* elementalist players log into GW PvE on an elementalist and play the class well to prove how *bad* they are. That doesn't make any sense. If all you're comparing is elementalists to elementalists you're just going to get a heirarchy of elementalist players and builds.

If you want to see why an elementalist is poor in PvE, you need to play an elementalist in PvE for a while, to establish a baseline. Then you replace the elementalists with *something else*, and compare the results. Hence the comparisons made here - put down your elementalist, and form a 5 physical, 2 monk, 1 order team. Even with trained noobs as your team, that setup is a bulldozer. Playing on teams like that is what made me cut Incendiary Bonds and Meteor Shower - they are simply too slow to be of any use outside of something like The Deep.

The reason I support running Blinding Flash + Enervating Charge in PvE (plus the global effects like Aegis and Extinguish) is because instead of taking a physical slot on that team, your elementalist takes a monk slot. That way you maintain the same killing power (and actually increase it slightly) without sacrificing too much defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Meanwhile you put together your balanced build with the idea that all classes are relatively balanced. We'll see who has Shiro dead first. It will be the warrior team by a long way.

I actually like an elementalist on my team for Shiro. Celestial Storm is definitely FTW. Celestial Stance is also awesome there, as is Star Strike - I'd think you'd want to run something like 3x Warrior 1x Ranger 1x Assassin 1x Order Necro 1x Ward / Storm Ele 1x Monk. A second monk is overkill for Shiro, you have Mhenlo with you and he dies in like 30 seconds anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Elementalists are sub-standard damage dealers. They are clearly outclassed by Warriors, Necromancers and Rangers. They have a lot of utility use. Utility is comparatively weak in PvE against PvP.

To expand on this - utility is valuable because it is flexible, and allows you offensive flexibility as well as giving you the tools to react to a wide variety of strategies and tactics. It gives you the tools to play around bad matchups and outright hate against your characters.

Now in PvE, there are no complicated tactics, and mobs (largely) do not hate out particular characters. Flexibility, then, is not valuable - raw power is. You know what's coming, and the most powerful builds that aren't countered by it are what you should run. If you're looking for a starting point, look to good PvP builds. If there are any 'raw power' characters run there, despite being bombarded by hate from the other team, you can be sure that character is going to be retarded in PvE. Hence: warriors. Once you're used to teams having multiple characters dedicated to stopping you, going into PvE where there not only is no warrior hate, but the monsters don't even kite you - it's a warrior paradise. For the elementalist? Heal Party has always been the best rawdog power available to the profession. In PvE, monsters don't even focus fire, so you're consistently hitting the skill for near-full benefit. If Heal Party is firing on all cylinders, it's hard to not outperform a healing monk on raw HPS just by spamming that skill.

To a lesser extent, Blinding Flash and Enervating Charge are very good in PvE, because they almost always last for duration, and weakness, while iffy in PvP because it doesn't help against adrenal spikes, is rather strong in PvE where mobs rarely use attack skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

We got Willa and another Mursaat monk in a four fiery dragon sword wielding W/Mo's in Thunderhead Keep once. Aura of Faith healing without disruption has downed many groups that I have been apart of while monking. Meteor Shower killed the regular monk, while I pinned down the boss repeatedly with Gale. Finished the battle victorious with 50 or so points in exhaustion. What was his comment about Gale being for PvE kiddies?

Believe it or not, the strongest skill against Willa is Lava Font (and the other DoTAoEs). You get her in a four-point body block so she can't move, and keep a constant AoE on. The AI reacts to it by trying to flee, even though it can't, and stops attacking and casting because of it. Body blocking plus AoE is a super-strong mes effect in PvE, try it sometime. =)

Peace,
-CxE

Master Fuhon · Aug 18, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Believe it or not, the strongest skill against Willa is Lava Font (and the other DoTAoEs). You get her in a four-point body block so she can't move, and keep a constant AoE on. The AI reacts to it by trying to flee, even though it can't, and stops attacking and casting because of it. Body blocking plus AoE is a super-strong mes effect in PvE, try it sometime. =)

When we met her again in Abadon's Mouth, my Ele and two warriors cornered her into corner to get our money's worth on area of effect. Different story against some hard hitting mobs, but it's doable with almost any class that you play as. Hint to the frustrated monks playing with the fire storm eles.

I picked up Bed of Coals as soon as I got it and gave it a permanent spot on my pure fire ele. Used to abuse melee mobs who usually run halfway through it to attack a squishee, hit once, and then have to retreat from the AoE panic. I especially enjoy playing as a class capable of using the "fear effect" on a bar otherwise full of damage dealing skills. The area of effect skills have always worked on mobs who begin slow casting skills: Meteor Shower, Troll's Ungent, and Ritualist Spirits especially. Real people could otherwise cancel and move, but you still pay the energy cost of using the original skill.

Edit: One of these days I hope to see area of effect used to abuse human intelligence at a high competitive level. Still need some help with the rest of the skills on the bar, but I can still see how you can get away using one or two of them.

Xpl0iter · Aug 18, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

that is precisely why i have been using firestorm lately since its as what u said " fear affect " against pve mobs. Southern shiverpeaks becomes much easier for an ele with henchies the moment he or she realizes the affect of each skill apart from what it said in its description.

LightningHell · Aug 19, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

We got Willa and another Mursaat monk in a four fiery dragon sword wielding W/Mo's in Thunderhead Keep once. Aura of Faith healing without disruption has downed many groups that I have been apart of while monking. Meteor Shower killed the regular monk, while I pinned down the boss repeatedly with Gale. Finished the battle victorious with 50 or so points in exhaustion. What was his comment about Gale being for PvE kiddies?

Exactly my point.

I had to gale-lockdown her, then our group had to wait for 2 minutes for that exhaustion to get off my face.

Although we didn't have sufficiently advanced group members that knows what "bodyblock" means, so, I guess that's somewhat an obstruction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

An elementalist survives in PvP by being able to cast Heal Pary, and survives in PvE by having the energy pool to run the large Glyph/Echo combination on Meteor Shower. Everything in between would be run by a fast cast mesmer if it weren't for the restrictions on Dual Attunements.

Don't forget Prodigy. <3 Prodigy.