Curse

LoyalSoldier · Aug 15, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

PvE Warriors run Triple Chop and Cyclone Axe.

Meteor Shower and Incendiary Bonds are complete piles of crap in general PvE with good groups. You need to specifically find targets that no one is attacking for them to do anything at all. If you target a warrior's target, he will be dead in the five seconds it takes for IB to do anything, or the eight it takes for Met Shower. The only zone where those two skills have proven to be useful in my experience is the deep, where the warriors basically have to take anti-knockdown stuff and can't destroy things, and enemies are hearty enough for your skills to matter. Of course, the damage your skills do is pathetic for similar reasons.

I've put down fire in PvE since the only skill that's any good on my bar is Fireball - Rodgorts was ok but nothing too exciting. Sure there was a bit of fun with Lava Font AI abuse, but really now. Using air magic and replacing a monk on a team instead of a warrior has proven to be much more effective for general use.

Peace,
-CxE

Yep. The only way I found Metor Shower to work well is if I used Glyph of Essence. Of course you know the recoil from that.

Phades · Aug 16, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why_Me

Both are too conditional. The "hold item" aggro trick was nerfed after factions release, so I really doubt the enemy's AI would get them all attacking or be adjacent to the same target which has 20AL more than everyone else.

Actually, if you have a semi compotent warrior that understands how to pull and body block this is not an issue. Also, if you are arguing that cyclone axe aoe is too conditional, then fireball, meteor shower, malestorm, and so on are also too conditional due to the size of the AOE involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why_Me

Since the ele is ranged, he could switch targets as much as he wants and be able to target anyone on the battlefield instantly and unleash some skills.

This is irrellevant to trying to prove how ranged AOE skills are superior. If the mobs are seperated enough to require target switching, then the efficiency just goes into the toilet and the party would be better off with virtually any other damage dealer in the ele's place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why_Me

SS is comparable to a nuker however. Under the right clustered conditions (2 man underworld, etc.) it is a much better AoE damage dealer. However it is too conditional for a random PvE mission. Your damage is stapled to that enemy, what happens if they move away from the center of the cluster.

By the time you are worrying about grouping for something like spiteful spitit, you could apply it again elsewhere. Things also should be nearly, if not dead by then. Typically this would be before meteor shower finishes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why_Me

This is for PvE, in PvP, get a warrior or mesmer, your dual attunement fire nuking build is doing nothing.

Dual attunement fire nuking does little in even the pve environment late in the game. Sure you could use it to feel like a giant among ants early on in the game, but thats rather irrellevant as a gauge for overal usefulness.

Sable Phoenix · Aug 16, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Useless? No.

Underpowered? Irrefutably.

Almost any other class can outdamage an Elementalist straight out. Heck, even a Smiting Monk can probably pump out more straight damage over the same amount of time, since all of theirs ignores armor and none of the Elementalist's do.

Elementalist damage skills seriously need to be revamped with shorter cast times, shorter recharges, lower energy costs, and higher damage values... and for some skills, all of the above.

Apok Omen · Aug 16, 2006, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Oh God, why is it that everytime I visit the Ele forums in Guru, someone is asking or ranting about the Elementalist's low DPS compared to a Warriors....

Look, we deal damage from each line of elemental damage. We deal fire damage from Fire Magic, Lightning damage from Air Magic, Cold damage from Water Magic.... getting my drift here? Our damage is conditional, same as a warriors. If the target foe has resistance against elemental damage, then the warrior or a necro or a mesmer steps in. If target foe is resistant against physical damage, then the elementalists steps in for the warrior.

Please, stop ranting about the elementalists damage per second. We all know that Fire is practically worthless if it hits one foe, but thats why ''nukers'' are wanted in huge mob areas. 47 or so damage to one foe from a Fireball is meh, but 47 damage to a huge mob from one Fireball is worth it. Yes, Warriors have PBAoE skills, but that's seldom used. Most just tank the damage instead of mainly dealing it.

Now, in PvP, Adrenal spikes are wanted, used, and successful. Nuking, on the other hand.... well, it doesn't do a lot, but PvP is the home to Air, Water, and Earth. These are used for helpful utility that greatly help out the team. And yes, I know that this isn't the topic of the thread, but people have to understand that Elementalist's are not all about damage and burning, therefore making them balanced and versatile.

Monks can smite but others want them to heal. Rangers can effectively slam a hammer down to their foe, but others would rather they shoot arrows. If the classes did what the others wanted to all the time, there would be no room for effective builds that are daring.

In short, Elementalists are not worthless as damage dealers. They just are expected to be the best, even though they aren't. All they are wanted to do in PvE is to blow mobs up, even if they do little damage, its still AoE damage. That's what Mesmer-hating, Sin-bashing PuG leaders want, so that's what they expect. In PvP, we have many different roles, thus making us versatile.

bigwig · Aug 16, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

a voice of reason. too bad it wont stop the sheep.

particularly like your last paragraph

Xpl0iter · Aug 16, 2006, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Oh God, why is it that everytime I visit the Ele forums in Guru, someone is asking or ranting about the Elementalist's low DPS compared to a Warriors....

someONE? i see over 50 people atleast, not to mention the fact that some people have actualy given out nice solutions. Do u know why they have been ranting for long time?
because nothing ever friggin took place to fix the issue at first place since long time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Look, we deal damage from each line of elemental damage. We deal fire damage from Fire Magic, Lightning damage from Air Magic, Cold damage from Water Magic.... getting my drift here? Our damage is conditional, same as a warriors. If the target foe has resistance against elemental damage, then the warrior or a necro or a mesmer steps in. If target foe is resistant against physical damage, then the elementalists steps in for the warrior.

You are not getting the drift here. Let me explain it in different ways.
The Damage is Elemental, but over all, it is pathetic when applied against armour level. Damage has to be large enough to apply some presure on a foe. Our damage is just plain pathetic. Forget about applying preasure.
Damage is conditional? I see no condition here where rangers have overall better armour against eles. Better than even freakin eles have against their own elements.
Target foe is resistant against physical damage due to armour. We have an over all affect on Elements due to Armour. No Condition applied. If there is a condition, it usualy makes it BETTER. Ranger armour comes in different variations if i recall, correct me though. For each kinda element, u can have better attributes, just like an ele would have had on his own armours. Why ?
You think i enjoy hitting warriors with any damage which is nearly halved when applied against their regular armours? No.

All Mesmer, Monk and Necro damage is armour ignoring. No freaking conditions. Regardless how high your armour is, be that an ele standing with a Kinetic, and Armour of earth + His/her Own armour level. About 200 i assume. It STILL goes through. NO strings attached. No conditions Applied.
Let me say this, A necro or mesmer steps in before an ELE even if there is no condition or elemental resistance to a foe's armour. BECAUSE IT IS ARMOUR ignoring. Elementalist steps No where. Elementalist steps in ONLY In those areas with a godly damage where a foe is at a level less than 15. Try check those stuff in Jungle and Shiverpeaks first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Please, stop ranting about the elementalists damage per second. We all know that Fire is practically worthless if it hits one foe, but thats why ''nukers'' are wanted in huge mob areas. 47 or so damage to one foe from a Fireball is meh, but 47 damage to a huge mob from one Fireball is worth it. Yes, Warriors have PBAoE skills, but that's seldom used. Most just tank the damage instead of mainly dealing it.

In PVE, I am using firestorm as a Defense Spell here. Know why? Because it scatters at the very first few seconds. Helps me break a mob which is trying to kill my henche. Fire is Worthless Regardless of the number of Foes. Go and try a simple hex and Feast of Corruption Combo with a Necro.
47 damage to one foe, yeh i agree, is "Meh". I assume you are coming up with that 47 damage when it is applied against a ranger. I am going Simple PVE route here to clear you out. Rangers even in PVE are not stupid enough to cluster at one place. They are usualy standing with enough distance that allows Fireball Not to hit more than 1 foe at a time.
I suggest you pay some attention to PVE monsters behaviour before you do come up with your numbers and judgements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Now, in PvP, Adrenal spikes are wanted, used, and successful. Nuking, on the other hand.... well, it doesn't do a lot, but PvP is the home to Air, Water, and Earth. These are used for helpful utility that greatly help out the team. And yes, I know that this isn't the topic of the thread, but people have to understand that Elementalist's are not all about damage and burning, therefore making them balanced and versatile.

Nuking in pvp, does Nothing at All. There is a reason why other elements are popular.
As far as you speaking about Air water and Earth. Not really. PVE even attracts those 3 elements as much as fire does. Depends on the Area that you are going to step into. From PVP prespective, Eles are 90% Utility Characters. Elementalists are not about dealing damage at ALL in pvp when it comes to high end PVP areas. Eles are *not* versatile. They do not have enough choices to go with to be called Versatiles. You do not call a profession versatile in same paragraph where you just outcasted them from a damage dealing catagory. They are Just UTILITY. Plain Utility, which does not make them versatile at all. Am Ranting here, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Monks can smite but others want them to heal. Rangers can effectively slam a hammer down to their foe, but others would rather they shoot arrows. If the classes did what the others wanted to all the time, there would be no room for effective builds that are daring.

I will not go in details:
Monks: Can Heal, Can even Smite, depending on the build. They can smite because they can still apply some pressure with it.
Necros: Can do damage, deal with different situations. Utility class too since they are major contributors in Spiking builds, like IWAY and Ranger Spiking?
Mesmers: Well, the list goes on.
Warriors: Well, damage dealers as you mentioned.
Rangers: Depends on the situation. Can contribute heavily to Spike builds, Support builds, and what not.
Eles: Are SUPPORT BUILD. Damage, Nah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

In short, Elementalists are not worthless as damage dealers. They just are expected to be the best, even though they aren't. All they are wanted to do in PvE is to blow mobs up, even if they do little damage, its still AoE damage. That's what Mesmer-hating, Sin-bashing PuG leaders want, so that's what they expect. In PvP, we have many different roles, thus making us versatile.

No one says that eles are worthless damage dealers.
As ensign said, they just cant apply enough Preassure.
They are not expected to be the best. They are just expected to be as good as every one else.
Even if they do a Single damage, it is still AOE. Sure. how about their charge, cast, and cost for those spells? Pathetic. Hence why, Scroll up and read all the posts.

In PVP, As i mentioned above, You have Many different rules Within UTILITY Class. Utility class it self is just a class. Just One class. That does not make you any sort of versatile character.

@Bigwig
Well, Read above.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

PS: Apok, when you do mention PVE, i suggest you also mention the behaviour of those monsters.

Arturo02 · Aug 16, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

I agree 100% as far as pvp. This is the only MMO I have ever played where the mage/magic user is not one of the most powerful professions/classes. I actually find this refreshing.

But cmon xploiter, the monsters' ai is notorious for bunching up in pve and they are prone to a good puller as well. The ele is not a second banana in pve. Sure, there are certain areas where aoe isn't as effective, but that is true for other professions' builds as well. It's just too easy to bunch up and kill mobs especially with the addition of some of the Factions skills.

Also an elementalist

Xpl0iter · Aug 16, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

I definetly agree to u arturo, the only issue is, what i listed above is the behaviour of monsters i found in southern shiverpeaks. Its just that, my aoe dmg is really nothing if i am not going against ice imps and siege golems. they bunch up if u pull them by the corner, and stay and pull in certain positions, but they break up too easily with us

Being honest, the areas that aoe doesnt work in are those areas where aoe needs to be working. There is no point in killing smaller level of mobs with 1 meteor and 2 fireballs done with renewal

I have tried a simple bar just for the sake of testing
I was capping every skill in frozen forest. a carver came to us and i used firestorm, breath of fire, fireball and renewed fireball. He was stuck between henches, and all my spells did take affect. Result? well, i could only take half of his life. He was just a level 24

I tried same with necro, didnt take me much time. not enough energy consumption unlike the spells i used with ele.

Regardz
Your fellow Elementalist.

Ensign · Aug 16, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

If the target foe has resistance against elemental damage, then the warrior or a necro or a mesmer steps in. If target foe is resistant against physical damage, then the elementalists steps in for the warrior.

First, necro and mesmer damage largely ignores armor. Those characters never 'step in' due to specific resistances, they get to blast things regardless. They are particularly good against highly armored targets of all sorts.

Second, if a mob is highly resistant to physical damage, the elementalist does not 'step in' for the warrior. The warrior pulls out his Icy Dragon Sword, changing his damage type and getting around the extra armor. Elementalist damage is locked into a particular elemental type based on the spell. The type of damage a warrior deals can be changed with the press of a weapon swap key.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Yes, Warriors have PBAoE skills, but that's seldom used. Most just tank the damage instead of mainly dealing it.

So your argument is that elementalist AoE damage is good because people are too incompetent to use the better options?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

but people have to understand that Elementalist's are not all about damage and burning, therefore making them balanced and versatile.

People understand very clearly that elementalists are not about damage and burning. That is why these threads continue to be created. It is about a profession that is clearly sold as something it is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

All they are wanted to do in PvE is to blow mobs up, even if they do little damage, its still AoE damage. That's what Mesmer-hating, Sin-bashing PuG leaders want, so that's what they expect.

In other words, elementalists are in demand because warriors refuse to spec their weapon attributes, because you can't always find a spiteful necro, because monks are in such short supply that you can't afford to use them to smite, and because all the rangers who have learned about Barrage are busy B/P farming. When you're forming a pug you're going to be bombarded by join requests from terrible physicals who couldn't kill a practice dummy, and anyone who resembles a support class is treated like gold. That elementalist over there? Sure, he doesn't have a place on a good team. But when sorting through the trash, you can be confident that guy will at least know how to cast Fireball.

Sometimes you're not powergaming or trying for the best. Sometimes all you can hope for is a minimum standard of competence, and fire eles deliver that like clockwork.

Peace,
-CxE

holden · Aug 16, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

We all know that Fire is practically worthless if it hits one foe, but thats why ''nukers'' are wanted in huge mob areas.

nukers are wanted for meteor shower. echo meteor shower.

imo that's only because most group leaders don't have a thorough understanding of the game.

LightningHell · Aug 17, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

nukers are wanted for meteor shower. echo meteor shower.

imo that's only because most group leaders don't have a thorough understanding of the game.

One is fine because I like AoE knockdown, but two...

I mean, that's all I expect them to do. I'd rather have five competent warriors.

Xpl0iter · Aug 17, 2006, 08:48 AM // 08:48

*pets my poor ele*
Lets kill Lightning Hell for fun!

Luciora · Aug 17, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Rather have 5 warriors but then you still have groups looking for eles

It comes down to the ele though, sure outright damage is not great but when you combine it with the rest of the team your enemies will not last long at all.

Ensign · Aug 17, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

I'd like to have *one* competent warrior most of the time, but you can't get that. You can however get some guys who cast Fireball and explode when mobs breathe on them.

Peace,
-CxE

LightningHell · Aug 17, 2006, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

*pets my poor ele*
Lets kill Lightning Hell for fun!

Look at my specced profession, I'm also an elly. I play support roles mostly though.

dgb · Aug 17, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Four warriors backed up by an orders. Utter devestation on PvE. Finding four warriors who actually understand that they are best off doing damage is hard.

LightningHell · Aug 17, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Four warriors backed up by an orders. Utter devestation on PvE. Finding four warriors who actually understand that they are best off doing damage is hard.

Totally agreed.

Arturo02 · Aug 17, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I took three months off so I wanted to play my ele more and wait until I said this...

you are all wrong. I don't care what evidence you throw in here. The ele is still a key member on a team, no more valuable then any other profession. For pve and also AB these days. And I play with a competant guild and alliance so I'm not making up for their inadequaces. Yes, I butchered the spelling on that word lol.

So flame away but I think a lot of the whole analysis here has to do with most people not being able to play this game. GW isn't a game where all the world's best gamers come to play, it's just a bunch of people.

It's funny. Ensign says an ele is only good cause he looks good when compared to people who can't play other professions properly. Why wouldn't this be the case for an ele?

Let's be perfectly honest. Most people who play MMO's are not very good at them. Eles seem to suck because like every other profession people suck too.

So you folks have your little debate, people like me will play our eles, contribute to our teams and be competant. Sometimes I wonder how many of you actually play an ele and I also question whether some of you even still play the game.

Don't believe everything you read on a message board people. Even the best in the game are wrong.

Flame away everyone but you really should spend more time in the game with an ele instead of arguing about their viability on a forum.

Ryuko · Aug 17, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

I haven't read the last two pages, so excuse me if I missed something, but my main character is an E/Me and I still find myself quite valuable in a party as main damage dealer. Especially with skills like Elemental Attunement, Fire Attunement and Aura of Restoration, you can spam hard hitting spells non-stop. I mainly use my fire build, since a good damage output against entire mobs is required in the places I farm lately. I've been the only ele in a farming party before several times, and we had much more trouble wiping out all the mobs than the times I've gone with one or two other eles.

True, being an ele is about more than just throwing Meteor Showers everywhere. But I've found that ele's are anything but useless as damage source. If you find that your damage output is still not good enough, tweak your build, as said before. Try skills that go good with a knockdown if you insist on using MS, like Bed of Coals. Make sure you're not out of energy after you've cast two or three spells, etc.

And of course, don't expect fire to work everywhere. That's why ele's have several elemental attributes instead of one, is it not? Once you're experienced with a certain places' mobs, what they can and cannot do, their armor specs, etc, find a build (whether fire/earth/water/air) that works best against those specific mobs. Now if certain people would try doing something else than casting Meteor Shower on a fire-resistant enemy and then saying that ele's in general are useless as damage dealers, then us eles would get a much better reputation as valuable assets to a party.

*lemming* · Aug 17, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

So you folks have your little debate, people like me will play our eles, contribute to our teams and be competant. Sometimes I wonder how many of you actually play an ele and I also question whether some of you even still play the game.

Sometimes I wonder whether you're capable of logic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

I don't care what evidence you throw in here.

So what kind of reasoning do you respond to?