Curse

lactatemike · Dec 31, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

I only argue that it is because good teams don't even need to change builds to counter it, just strategy.

And being a higher DPS than any other ele skill. . . Well that isn't say much anymore, really. The ele used to be a much more powerful and all around fun character to play. This skill is a step in that direction again.

Francis Crawford · Dec 31, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Interesting argument, asserting that general anti-caster tools which don't shut down monking won't be harmful enough to SF either. Obviously, there COULD be counters that work only against offense spells, but in practice I can think of exactly one, and honestly I forget which of Guilt and Shame is which, as I use neither.

Perhaps the answer really is counters against elemental damage -- Ward Against Elements or Winter/Mantra of Frost/anti-cold armors. Discouraging the use of elemental weapon mods would be a strong potential side benefit.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 31, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

Interesting argument, asserting that general anti-caster tools which don't shut down monking won't be harmful enough to SF either. Obviously, there COULD be counters that work only against offense spells, but in practice I can think of exactly one, and honestly I forget which of Guilt and Shame is which, as I use neither.

Perhaps the answer really is counters against elemental damage -- Ward Against Elements or Winter/Mantra of Frost/anti-cold armors. Discouraging the use of elemental weapon mods would be a strong potential side benefit.

You misunderstand what I posted. What I meant was not that it won't shutdown monking and will shutdown offensive classes, the post was meant to point out that there isn't as much anti-caster shutdown as there is melee (otherwise it'd be too easy to shutdown a monk). The point is you cannot shut down all the searing flames, and the other point is that people say warriors are so much more powerful than eles (which in PvE, is true) but they are much easier to counter.

Francis Crawford · Dec 31, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

This is a post I wrote a while back that didn't go up due to one of the many Guru lag periods ...

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Yes, I'm still confused about:

1. Why you mentioned Stone Striker?
2. Why you mention Obsidian Flesh as ranged offense?

Actually, I'm not confused; I'm just noting that you are.

I also note that you have a whole lot of spellcasting and not a lot of energy management in your hypothetical build.

That said, I'll agree that if one takes Dual Attunements (say), and if we stipulate that the opposition doesn't bring much in the way of enchantment stripping or interrupts, then Earth Magic is the basis of some very powerful builds.

Your PvP experience, to which you've referred frequently, far exceeds mine. So please enlighten me: Is it indeed a valid assumption that PvPers don't bring much in the way of interrupts or enchantment stripping?

I also note that a SF elementalist can run at least Kinetic Armor at a pretty high level of Earth Magic.

Francis Crawford · Dec 31, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

You misunderstand what I posted. What I meant was not that it won't shutdown monking and will shutdown offensive classes, the post was meant to point out that there isn't as much anti-caster shutdown as there is melee (otherwise it'd be too easy to shutdown a monk). The point is you cannot shut down all the searing flames, and the other point is that people say warriors are so much more powerful than eles (which in PvE, is true) but they are much easier to counter.

I understood what you said, I think.

I just disagreed with it, by giving examples of counters to elemental spell-casting that wouldn't also shut down monks.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 31, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

This is a post I wrote a while back that didn't go up due to one of the many Guru lag periods ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I'm still confused about:

1. Why you mentioned Stone Striker?
2. Why you mention Obsidian Flesh as ranged offense?

Actually, I'm not confused; I'm just noting that you are.

I also note that you have a whole lot of spellcasting and not a lot of energy management in your hypothetical build.

That said, I'll agree that if one takes Dual Attunements (say), and if we stipulate that the opposition doesn't bring much in the way of enchantment stripping or interrupts, then Earth Magic is the basis of some very powerful builds.

Your PvP experience, to which you've referred frequently, far exceeds mine. So please enlighten me: Is it indeed a valid assumption that PvPers don't bring much in the way of interrupts or enchantment stripping?

I also note that a SF elementalist can run at least Kinetic Armor at a pretty high level of Earth Magic.

Who is you? I never mentioned any of that...

Now that I understand your post concering the "guilt" skill and a few other non anti-monk but other anti-caster skills... Again, it comes around to how useful the counter is. The only time I'd ever want guilt on my skillbar (well, I wouldn't really want it period) would be for searing flames. Sure, you can use it against other offensive casters, but the only time you really NEED offensive caster shutdown is against searing flames. Thus, forcing you to bring extra counters to something that is not incorporated into every build is, well, overpowered.

Speedy Lunar · Jan 02, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I agree! SF should have more energy cost, longer recharge and less damage. Let's go back to the old days when an ele was scared when a warior came running at him/her...But then they should unnerf AoE a bit, because it got a lot weaker when NF came out.

Francis Crawford · Jan 02, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

forcing you to bring extra counters to something that is not incorporated into every build is, well, overpowered.

A bunch of Ether Renewal earth tanks, with Stone Daggers for single-target pressure, Obsidian Flame for spikes and Mantra of Resolve as an anti-interrrupt,is close to unbeatable unless you bring enchantment stripping and/or stance removal. But there are many other builds against which these counters are not needed.

Does that make the Earth Magic line overpowered too?

Thom Bangalter · Jan 03, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Don't forget the ward spamming, francis. Of course, you bring glyph of energy for the obs flame spikes to manage exhaustion...

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 03, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

A bunch of Ether Renewal earth tanks, with Stone Daggers for single-target pressure, Obsidian Flame for spikes and Mantra of Resolve as an anti-interrrupt,is close to unbeatable unless you bring enchantment stripping and/or stance removal. But there are many other builds against which these counters are not needed.

Does that make the Earth Magic line overpowered too?

Enchantment removal is useful against nearly every single build except nr/tranq. Stance removal is not as common, but many people bring it for use against trappers or spirit spammers.

Francis Crawford · Jan 03, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Enchantment removal is useful against nearly every single build except nr/tranq. Stance removal is not as common, but many people bring it for use against trappers or spirit spammers.

::coughIWAYcough::

And by the way, Searing Flames without Fire Attunement runs into energy problems pretty quickly. At a guess, that vulnerability to enchantment stripping might be one of the major reasons it doesn't dominate PvP.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 03, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

::coughIWAYcough::

And by the way, Searing Flames without Fire Attunement runs into energy problems pretty quickly. At a guess, that vulnerability to enchantment stripping might be one of the major reasons it doesn't dominate PvP.

Very few builds bring enough enchant removal to remove 4-6 attunements. And if you're trying to suggest I iway, I don't, and many balanced builds still bring wild blow.

Francis Crawford · Jan 03, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Very few builds bring enough enchant removal to remove 4-6 attunements. And if you're trying to suggest I iway, I don't, and many balanced builds still bring wild blow.

Once again, you're missing my points.

A. I suggested IWAY as a counterexample to your claim that enchant removal works against almost all builds.

B. You said SF was overpowered because it required counters that don't work against all builds. I gave an example of another build of which that was true, one in which everybody wore multiple enchantments. You said it wasn't an example, because enchant removal worked against almost all builds. Now you're saying that one doesn't even carry enough enchant removal to strip one enchant per opponent, let along multiple enchants.

You do such a great job of contradicting yourself, I'm not sure that it's worth the effort for anybody else to bother disagreeing with you.

Xpl0iter · Jan 03, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

*snip*
You do such a great job of contradicting yourself, I'm not sure that it's worth the effort for anybody else to bother disagreeing with you.

*chuckles* i agree with francis on this one!

Pwny Ride · Jan 03, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Elementalists are supposed to deal the most (area of effect) damage with a single attack...
Searing Flames isnt overwpowered. It has REQIREMENTS for it to work, just like alot of other skils.

If the target isnt burning then its totally useless.
Of course i play a Water Elementalist, and im still loving it after months
(OMG STEP BACK, SOMETHING DIFFERENT), and my simple solution is Frigid Armor

Its spells like these that differ elementalists from other professions.

OP is only complaining because he always gets killed by builds like this.
It's why people can create their own builds in the first place - to be able to ADAPT.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 03, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

Once again, you're missing my points.

A. I suggested IWAY as a counterexample to your claim that enchant removal works against almost all builds.

B. You said SF was overpowered because it required counters that don't work against all builds. I gave an example of another build of which that was true, one in which everybody wore multiple enchantments. You said it wasn't an example, because enchant removal worked against almost all builds. Now you're saying that one doesn't even carry enough enchant removal to strip one enchant per opponent, let along multiple enchants.

You do such a great job of contradicting yourself, I'm not sure that it's worth the effort for anybody else to bother disagreeing with you.

If you're suggesting iway requires counters that do not work against other builds, you're dead wrong. The way to beat iway is warrior hate (useful against a lot of builds). It also helps to pack spirit hate (useful for other builds). As for the trappers, see what I said about wild blow and stance removal, or you can just wand them. If you're suggesting that removing orders is the most effective way to go against iway, you're dead wrong. Sure, it helps, but really wouldn't be worth bringing that many enchant removals. Removing seed, hands, etc. would be a bit helpful, as would removing the PD mesmers attunement, so yes, enchant removal would help a little against iway. I said enchantment removal is useful against all builds, I did not say it would shut down those builds or anything else. I am not contradicting myself.

Francis Crawford · Jan 03, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

If you're suggesting iway requires counters that do not work against other builds, you're dead wrong. The way to beat iway is warrior hate (useful against a lot of builds). It also helps to pack spirit hate (useful for other builds). As for the trappers, see what I said about wild blow and stance removal, or you can just wand them. If you're suggesting that removing orders is the most effective way to go against iway, you're dead wrong. Sure, it helps, but really wouldn't be worth bringing that many enchant removals. Removing seed, hands, etc. would be a bit helpful, as would removing the PD mesmers attunement, so yes, enchant removal would help a little against iway. I said enchantment removal is useful against all builds, I did not say it would shut down those builds or anything else. I am not contradicting myself.

I'm suggesting pretty much the opposite of what you're suggesting I'm suggesting.

At least, I think that's the case. I find it hard to be sure what you really mean from post to post, or even from sentence to sentence.

Dutch Masterr · Jan 03, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

im going to request that people just stop posting in this thread, or have the moderaters close it. when i posted this a long time ago, searing flames was a bigger problem than it is now. i still belive its over powered, but i no longer want it nerfed because it isnt every other player thats using it anymore. we have all heard the opinions of if it should get a nerf or not, so please, lets end the flame-fest now. i never expected this thread to be so big.

im sorry i posted this thread, i didnt want to anger so many people.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 03, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Might as well close it he's right... quick everyone, move over to the other searing flames thread in this section and start flaming again

Phades · Jan 04, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

im going to request that people just stop posting in this thread, or have the moderaters close it. when i posted this a long time ago, searing flames was a bigger problem than it is now. i still belive its over powered, but i no longer want it nerfed because it isnt every other player thats using it anymore. we have all heard the opinions of if it should get a nerf or not, so please, lets end the flame-fest now. i never expected this thread to be so big.

im sorry i posted this thread, i didnt want to anger so many people.

Overused due to the direct lack of other options does not equate out to being over powered.