Curse

Rizvan · Nov 12, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Paragon is the ultimate way of countering ele dmg. With shouts like watch yourself and stand your ground everybody in the party gets shitloads of damage. Just the other day I ran a build with 2 thumpers 2 paragons and 2 monks. The fireball did 7dmg to me. Searing flames is not overpowered in any way. Being set on fire for 7 seconds=14dmg*7seconds=108dmg. Extinguish would not only completely stop that damage but it would also heal for quite a bit.

But people say that just because there is a counter to something it doesnt mean it shouldnt be nerfed and some counters are only viable against one thing. Ok, so you are telling me extinguish is only viable against searing flames? Then how come it was used way before Nightfall came out?
People complain about 3 searing flame eles doing a lot of dmg at the same time. I have to agree with that, 3 eles do shitloads of damage at the same time. But here is the deal: 3 warriors/ 3 rangers/3 paragons/ 3 dervishes can do comparable damage. The only difference is that eles unleash large amounts of damage in the beginning and then they dont do much for a while.

Searing flames is a very powerful elite, but it is already becoming obsolete, since one paragon can mitigate most of the damage that those eles can do. Incoming, watch yourself, stand your ground and many other shouts basically reduce the damage to nothingness. And that protection also applies to all kinds of other damage so it is not overpowered.

Currently a team with vocal minority necro, a shout paragon and some sort of damage rules anything out there. Try to run a searing flame ele build in HA right now and you will be beaten on the first or second map. You wont get much farther than scarred earth because there people at scarred earth and they most likely pack plenty of anti-ele love.

Starburst does almost the same damage as searing flames, but for some reason people ignored starburst as an overpowered elite. Maybe it is because searing flames and starburst are not overpowered? The only reason searing flame eles are successful is because most groups fail to scatter BEFORE they unleash their fire damage and glyph of sacrifice meteor showers.

Unfortunately, 90% of people in this game are whiners that dont know how to counter easy to counter builds. This argument reminds me of threads about touch rangers being overpowered. Because it is so hard to snare/run away from a touch ranger. But on the other hand if someone dares to nerf your precious farming skill everyone starts crying about all the ectos they will never be able to get again.

I have seen multiple balanced teams flawless searing flames even without the paragon, just through simple kiting and other old damage mitigation techniques. So instead of whining about how powerful a skill, maybe you should look at your own playing style and try to improve on it? Maybe anet doesnt have to nerf any good skill just so you can win a match or two? This game is about your own skill, not game skills.

Lastly I want to do some math and see how "overpowered" this skill is. It is 15 energy 2 sec recharge and 1 sec cast. 1 sec cast means that any half decent mesmer or ranger should be able to inerrupt it(interrupting woh which is 3/4second cast is very simple and I dont have uber reactions). 15 energy is quite expensive, but with fire attunement giving back 6 energy and glowing haze it is manageable. Lets see, it can set you on fire for 7 seconds which is 108 damage over time or do 119 dmg if you are already on fire. So it can do a maximum of 119 dmg in 3 seconds (recharge time+cast time). 119 divided by 3 is about 40 dmg per second. 40dmg per second, doesnt sound too bad to me.

A warrior can easily do more damage than that and if you spread around then the damage will not be applied to everyone in your party. When I see 3 or more people getting damage at the same time as a monk, I stop healing because it is a waste of my energy to try save all 3 of them. Dont fight under the fuking bridge or in any other choke point. And in GvGs there is plenty of space to run around so two people should never be close to each other unless they are warriors spiking the same guy.

mrmango · Nov 12, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Very soon you will all fear the wrath of mesmer spike, mwaahahahahhaahhaha!

Chilly Ress · Nov 12, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Ugh, none of you understand. And the people that are making the arguements dont understand how it should be fixed. The problem is that Searing Flames is not overpowered. The problem is that all the other ele skills suck....hard.

@ Rizvan: your math is off. Lets say you have infinite energy, which you really should if you have a decent paragon and fire attunement and glowing gaze spamming 24/7. All that considered, we are not going to count AoE dmg from ms or even SF. Just SF alone on one target. This said target has no enchants and no bonus armor vs ele or anything else. To make it equal between all sources since all sources will hopefully be protted or healed eventually and that exact amount can never be calculated. So, just with searing flames, with everything doing max dmg, burning for 7 seconds is 7*7*2=98dmg. Then, another SF after that is 119. That is 119+98=217. 217 dmg in 4 seconds. This is 54.25dmg per second. NO ONE can know if that will be more than one warrior on a target. Warriors have to deal with wards/guardian/aegis/kiting/blind/weakness/etc etc. 55dmg a second is actually very good even WIHTOUT the AoE of it. Also, if you stop healing because three people are under pressure, just quit monking, because no one will want you.

Deleet · Nov 12, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Yep. Bring Kiting. THIS (kiting) skill should be nerfed, just because it's so fricking imba. And while you're at it, nerf Positioning [E]. It's imba too.
___
Besides i find it highly ironic that you on one hand complain about every other team having searing flames and then go ahead and state that you refuse to counter it. Feeling a little schizophrenic there?

You wan't multiple persons to bring mantra of flame?

The rest if your post is right though.

Searing flames with Glowing Gaze is just free nearby aoe damage and burning, added recharge time 2s.

The rest of the ele damage elites are mostly useless, true.

LiamR · Nov 12, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

You know... it's funny.
In every single manual, the elementalists were proclaimed as THE damage dealing class. The funny thing is, they never were. Their damage was measly at best and all you'd ever see an elementalist do with some success is run away, soak up a teamspot and fuel secondary skills with Ether Prodigy (and Ether Renewal while it was of use).
Everytime someone invents a build that can do a bit of what this very fragile class is supposed to do, people start to scream "nerf, nerf, nerf!". And sadly after a while, A-Net listens to those whiney little ****** and nerfs the Elementalists some more. Elementalists are looking back at a history of nerfs while they were never too powerful to start with when they were playing as a primary (pre-release not taken into consideration).
They were hit hard. REAAAAL hard.

Now came Nightfall and introduced skills like Sandstorm and Searing Flames. Elementalists now actually do what they're supposed to do, they do damage. A-net for once followed the call of the community in these parts. Don't you remember the countless threads and complains about elementalists being UNDERpowered?
Now they got a toy that works. And now people want to kick them in the nuts and blow them right back into the "meh, go play secondary gas station" realm.

No. Searing Flames is not overpowered.
It's just that the other spells in comparison are ridiculously weak.

So what is the matter here? Did people get too used to just bash the elementalists into the ground that the sudden resistance is sooo disturbing that they cry out for nerfs? Get real, Elementalists are squishies for a reason. This reason is (supposed to be, according to the manual and various in game texts) fire power. Take away power and you've got no justification for their squishy armor.

QFT
Everything I wanted to say and more.

sindex · Nov 12, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

I started to know there was something going on when the ele’s just would not run away from certain melee classes anymore. Time for my mez to come out of retirement, before Nightfall came out I was giving him less in game moments now that has defiantly changed. Hello new GW world, ele's time to bite your own dust; this is going to be interesting indeed. Unless things change of course and they always do.

XoO Chaos · Nov 13, 2006, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Searing Flames should be left untouched. It isn't in any way overpowered, as it fufills the original role of an elementalist, massive midline damage. The reason why players want this spell nerfed is simply because these players are inexperienced in the aspect of pvp, their build is horrible and cannot cope with the intense battles of HA, or because the Searing Flame group knows what they are doing rather than pressing shortcut "1" and "2" repeatedly.

Yesterday I joined an unranked pug Searing Flame group, and guess what? We reached courtyard twice with the two games I played with them. First of all, our group knew what they were doing, and could follow directions. Second, they had a general knowledge of who they should unleash their fire power out on.

Also, there are many players (including officers and leaders in my very own guild) who are complaining that heroway was a horrible idea, as the efforts of 1 player can defeat the efforts of 6. And while this is true at times, Searing Flames is a great choice to defeat Dunkoro and his pals. They like hugging, which allows us to maximize the benefit of the AoE.

Ok... now to take the point of view of a group versing a Searing Flame team. I honestly have to say that my team, no matter what build we run, defeat 7 out of 8 Searing Flame groups, because we actually use the skill "Kiting" and the skill "Positioning." Sometimes we run thumpers and paragons which usually have an advantage over these fire eles, and sometimes we run a team of squishies and completely pwn them.

How To Defeat Searing Flames

As a guildwars build creator, I don't understand why everyone is speaking of counters towards this build.
IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A COUNTER TO SEARING FLAMES, THEN YOU SHOULD EXPECT TO LOSE.
No matter how radical my build is, I always find that I have some sort of skill that could stop Searing Flames to a certain degree. Heck I don't even think about putting counters to Searing Flames in my build and I still end up with some, whether it's interrupts, knockdowns, damage mitigation, or anti-caster hexes.

Don't forget that Searing Flame groups have horribly poor defense!!!!

Don't stand under bridges, don't stand in cramped areas. Run out into an open space; let your characters breath.

And you know what? I like this Searing Flames fad. Monks don't really have any non-elite energy management after the nerf, and Mantra of Flame not only helps with e-management, it reduces the damage as well.

Usually popular skills from every class that counter Searing Flames:

Warrior: Shock, interrupts, knockdowns, overall high damage output
Ranger: interrupts, dazed, anti-ele armor...
Ele: counter AoE with AoE! Most Searing Flame groups bunch up as well.
Mesmer: lol...everything. Domination: e-denial, interrupts, diversion, enchant removal. Illusion: Migraine, Arcane Conundrum. Inspiration: energy degen, interrupts, enchant removal, Mantra of Flame or Frost. Heck I bet you could even use something from the Fast Casting line.
Necro: Not much other than enchant removal. If you are using a necro in an HA build, he or she should be anti-warrior anyways. Oh, forgot about Malaise and Wither and that blood elite, Spoil Victor.
Monk: Extinguish, RC, Shield of Absorbtion, Protective Spirit, Spirit Bond
Assassin: If you truly are an Assassin, you should be able to kill the ele long before he kills you. Interrupts and knockdowns.
Ritualist: Shelter, Union. Someone mentioned Xinrae's Weapon and Defiant was Xinrae. These are actually extremely powerful skills against this type of group, and can be incorporate into a build. However, these skills are only good for Searing Flames, so I'm not sure if I'd be willing to risk spot for this kind of Rit. Still, Searing Flames has made these originally overlooked skills worthwhile.
Dervish: In my opinion, these are the guys that should be nerfed. Attack power of an assassin and defense of a wammo. A dervish group should slaughter Searing Flames with ease.
Paragon: "Incoming". Several shouts which aid the entire party with protection against heavy damage output.

Being an ele lover, I'm glad this spell was released. Finally we can actually do what we were supposed to do. In fact, I'm still complaining that eles are "underpowered." They should have more spells like Searing Flame in my opinion.

Ensign · Nov 13, 2006, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Most of the problem comes from this being another easy character to run, ala touchers. Even if it isn't obscene at high levels, it causes problems by badly degenerating midlevel PvP.

Peace,
-CxE

Byzantine · Nov 13, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

I think that Searing Flames itself isnt overpowered its just that pugs are underpowered. Since SF eles have been out I monked in pugs and got slaughtered because nobody spread out and were unwilling to bring counters. With my guildies its just free fame cause we bring counters, extra defense and spread out.

Like Ensign said, pugs just dont have the ability to cope with extreme aoe damage and degen.

My beef with Searing flames lies in GVG where guilds bring paragons with energizing finale to power the eles and the monks, then you have they're on fire which effects everyone if the eles are decent.

Anet is most likely going to raise the cast time to 2, who knows what their going to do with paragons.

The Hand Of Death · Nov 13, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Searing flames will probably get nerfed, so stop your complaining. It is already overused and when a skill is over used, nerfed it gets. As for blinding surge, I have seen 2 guild battles where the ele used blinding surge, I will be surprised if Anet nerfs this. But seriously, in my opinion HA is dead. Noobs can't play it. "Experts" get bored and stop doing it. Heroes and henchmen are dominating it. It is dead so let searing flames manifest itself in there.

Molock · Nov 13, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

frankly... I love that build. Now us eles got our reputation as dmg dealers back.

MMSDome · Nov 13, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

lets nerf keystone signet too

Mr Jazzy · Nov 13, 2006, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

You know... it's funny.
In every single manual, the elementalists were proclaimed as THE damage dealing class. The funny thing is, they never were. Their damage was measly at best and all you'd ever see an elementalist do with some success is run away, soak up a teamspot and fuel secondary skills with Ether Prodigy (and Ether Renewal while it was of use).
Everytime someone invents a build that can do a bit of what this very fragile class is supposed to do, people start to scream "nerf, nerf, nerf!". And sadly after a while, A-Net listens to those whiney little ****** and nerfs the Elementalists some more. Elementalists are looking back at a history of nerfs while they were never too powerful to start with when they were playing as a primary (pre-release not taken into consideration).
They were hit hard. REAAAAL hard.

Now came Nightfall and introduced skills like Sandstorm and Searing Flames. Elementalists now actually do what they're supposed to do, they do damage. A-net for once followed the call of the community in these parts. Don't you remember the countless threads and complains about elementalists being UNDERpowered?
Now they got a toy that works. And now people want to kick them in the nuts and blow them right back into the "meh, go play secondary gas station" realm.

No. Searing Flames is not overpowered.
It's just that the other spells in comparison are ridiculously weak.

So what is the matter here? Did people get too used to just bash the elementalists into the ground that the sudden resistance is sooo disturbing that they cry out for nerfs? Get real, Elementalists are squishies for a reason. This reason is (supposed to be, according to the manual and various in game texts) fire power. Take away power and you've got no justification for their squishy armor.

amen!!
i remember plvling my ele to 20, only to find out in horror that my measly warrior was stronger. what a gip. plus i lol'd at the 'nuts' part.

combat slasher · Nov 13, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

i think its not really the skills problem. i think since the objective here is too kill, people now adapted to eles. because the can nuke and do alot more dmg. i would be scared too if eles were gaining up on me haha lol. but i think its just the style of playing has changed overall than the real spells issue.

Tortoise · Nov 13, 2006, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Counters shmounters. When you look at the sheer numbers then they are scary. Searing does more DPS then a warrior even if it consistently hits only one target. The fact that it is actually an AoE skill makes the numbers go overtop.

Can you counter it? Yes, easily, but so can you do with other sources of damage. Even when the counters against Searing are as strong as the counters against warriors then that still means the damage output should be similar. The fact that searing can easily outdamage a warrior makes it near unbalanced. If searing isn't unbalanced then it is mainly because warriors are alot more flexible then a searing guy, not because it is counterable or that it's damage is shitty.

That having said: dealing with searing isn't really an issue atm. Why? Mainly because of the sheer strength of paragons. Paragons are what's keeping Searing at bay and make the skill balanced in the grand scheme of things. With a paragon at your side Searing quickly becomes just another skill that isn't really impressing. Whether that means Searing is an ok skill or Paragons are just insanely strong is something I won't adress.

Atm searing isn't scary. It's annoying, like IWAY was, but it isn't unbalanced.

unmatchedfury · Nov 13, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

I think it's wonderful that eles can do dmg again. Before the buff in nightfall they were utility classes at best, now their even getting some use in GvG as ""GASP!"" dmg dealers!

They were descibed in the book as dmg dealers, and now they are. Memsers will still F*** any class that spames spells into oblivion. Dom memsers are already a common thing to bring in GvG, now even more of a reason to bring them. So what if warriors don't own at doing everything now?...

Cataclysm · Nov 13, 2006, 04:25 AM // 04:25

I used to have an ele. It sucked. Bad. Then, I got NF and made another just for the heck of it. It sucked. Bad. But now, all of a sudden my persistence is paying off when I capped Searing Heat and bought Glowing Gaze. Combines well with Met Shower and Lightbringers Gaze vs. Margonites >=D

I dont TA/RA much but I can guarentee you that, from my experiences at Aspenwood and AB, that a good interrupt ranger or worse a mesmer can shut you down good, not to mention if an assassin chooses you as their target. I cant tell you how many eles I've killed with my sin in under 6 seconds. Its rediculous to say they should be nerfed even more. A mesmer can make it twice as long for you to cast, and Dazed will certainly spell doom.

Sorry for my bad spelling as always, Cata

Talic · Nov 13, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

lets nerf keystone signet too

LOL keystone, dont make my ribs hurt anymore, reading this thread wanting to nerf eles is already painful enough.

Qual · Nov 13, 2006, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

anyone else notice the surplus or elementalists in pvp? also, every other person in ab uses the searing flame/glowing glaze build!!! its WAY too overpowered if you ask me and soemthing needs to be done about it. it used to be elementalists ran away from warriors or assassins, now THEY are the ones that charge in after the warriors and sins with their searing flames.

not only that but another new skill "blinding surge" is also way overpowered. was blinding flash not powerful enough? now we can have blinding, alot of damage and a quick recharge time too? im sure anyone that does pvp, have came across one of these two cheap-o builds....

Nerf, nerf, nerf whinning. I bet your guild team gets pwned by heroway searing flamers in HA. Stop whinning got damit, you are hurting the game.
(I don't play ele or heroway)

Arcador · Nov 13, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Well, I like this change too but this skill requires a little INCREASED cooldown. I like to see ele buffed but now EVERY ELE has SEARING FLAMES, and GLOWING HAZE - GVG, TA, HA, RA ...wtf? I do not with to see THAT much of same build - I want variety!