Curse

Stormlord Alex · Aug 18, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonidas2

I can sum up the basis of my argument with 2 more words.

No Defense.

And I'll shoot it down.
Run Wards. You don't need 13 Energy Storage.
Now have a cookie.

Leonidas2 · Aug 18, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Okay...

Last I checked, heroes were rather subpar about staying in Wards. Also, wards don't help much against rangers. Nor do they help much against necros, mesmers, smiters, or even the 50% IAS of Hard Mode enemies, as their amount of increased swings outweighs the 50% chance to block them.

Now if we blind them, which is a 90% chance to miss, or weaken them, which lowers their damage by 66.6%, that is much more valuable than a 50% chance to block. Not to mention blocks can be countered. And running a lower level of earth magic (probably the usual 11/11/15) means wards will be down a good 5-6 seconds or so, enough time for the dying to start.

Oh, and thank you for the cookie. ^_^ Hope its chocolate chip, that's my favorite

ZenRgy · Aug 18, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

[skill]Searing Flames[/skill] + [skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill] = Defense?

If it takes 5-6 seconds for you to die in ANY PvE, you are running garbage healers. I will agree Fire isn't very effective in HM, but in regular PvE it's ownzzzz.

Stormlord Alex · Aug 18, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Huh? It takes 5-6 seconds for you to get owned?
Then... There's no elemental magicks that could save you.
Get better monks.

Wings of Fury · Aug 18, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

well my fire ele got to leg vanguisher in hm with h/h so they are very effective, in pve you try to control the aggro else lv 26-30 foes will simply overrun you ... you dont really need a high storage so you can always add some support skills for the type of foes in the aea/mission.

Darkpower Alchemist · Aug 19, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

[skill=big]Ward Against Foes[/skill]

This is the super snare that dares to compare. Earth Build time.

[skill=card]Earth Attunement[/skill][skill=card]Glyph of Restoration[/skill][skill=card]Enervating Charge[/skill][skill=card]Stoning[/skill][skill=card]Obsidian Flame[/skill][skill=card]Churning Earth[/skill][skill=card]Sandstorm[/skill][skill=card]Ward against Foes[/skill]

This is the Earth build I currently like to run in PvE as well as in AB. The glyph is replaceable for any number of skills, most of the time I run Air attunement in order to get the max return of energy while using 2 elements. Or, a res can be employed, or even a utility spell like Mystic regeneration. This earth build is perfect for use against mobs of all types.

Earth packs serious punch.

Perfected Shadow · Aug 19, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Why not Ebon Hawk instead of Enervating? Or if you want unconditional weakness, Enfeeble.

Francis Demeules · Aug 20, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Why not Ebon Hawk instead of Enervating? Or if you want unconditional weakness, Enfeeble.

Enervating is unconditional, got Enervating and bam, weakness with it. While useing 2 element, you can do many things each other and combinations instead 1 element and high energy storage

Yang Whirlwind · Aug 20, 2007, 09:50 AM // 09:50

I've had a lot of success with my blind-bot build in HM Vanquishing.
Some areas are not suited for this build - those with heavy dispellers

- but there's plenty of areas where the ability to keep two opponents blinded and the self heal is a big help.

Elemental Attunement
Air Attunement
Aura of Restoration

4 spammable air spikes (i actually bring Lightning Hammer as one of them - cost 25)

Rebirth/Resurrect - or whatever suits your fancy

With the energy preservation you get from the Attunements and the self heal you get from Restoration you can keep going for a long time. Especially in areas where you have a 4 man team limit, this is great for
A: keeping any Warrior-types crowding your monk blinded
B: keeping yourself alive without draining you sole monks energy

I use a Air head piece with a Superior Air rune (+4 air)
and a 20/20 staff with +5E and +20% Enchant

SotiCoto · Aug 20, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

People speak so poorly of Water Elementalists in PvE .... but I never really had any trouble. Though I usually Herohench, I've been able to find parties whenever I wanted them with Hyun Lon Zi (my water ele, as pictured in my avatar on the left)... and received glowing reports of his effectiveness. Afterall, most PuGs seem to be all in favour of anything that keeps them safe and helps them kill enemies better, which happens to be just what he is good at.

And as I so like to emphasize.... it is all in the synergy between Sousuke and Lon Zi...

[skill]Greater Conflagration[/skill] on Sousuke.
[skill]Ward Against Harm[/skill] on Lon Zi.

Everyone within the ward gets a shiny 60-odd armour boost against most of the damage coming their way.

Add on to that the extra defensive measure of [skill]Armor Of Mist[/skill] and the entirely convenient combination of [skill]Deep Freeze[/skill]and[skill]Maelstrom[/skill] coupled with whatever the other Elementalists in the party want to throw down.... and it all works out quite nicely.
I've seen complaints from people about ignorant PuG Elementalists Leeroying into battle and failing at defense. That isn't really a problem when you have a +100 armour and a 33% speed boost on the side (and are capable of moderate damage AND spell interrupts besides).

ZenRgy · Aug 20, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Because it's using your elite for a defensive skill that you don't need. Why run an elite spirit and a ward when you can just bring a paragon with "ToF" and some SF ele's(or Rodgort Spammers) and roll through all the mobs.

Wards (particularly Harm and Elements) encourage a very counter productive thing, balling up in AoE damage, it confines them to that space.

Also you won't get the +100 from AoM + WvH, it's either 63 vs fire or +42 from AoM, they don't stack.

Although I wouldn't use fire/water in HM (save one SH ele, but usually sticking to necro hexes and warriors). I'd never use water in NM PvE, why? Because you don't need it, because you'll get things faster with a bunch of fire eles.

Paragon > Wards.

SotiCoto · Aug 20, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

Because it's using your elite for a defensive skill that you don't need. Why run an elite spirit and a ward when you can just bring a paragon with "ToF" and some SF ele's(or Rodgort Spammers) and roll through all the mobs.

Don't need? Few things in Guild Wars are a matter of necessity... and for what it is worth, I'd rather have the Ward which works better than the ToF which works worse... from personal experience (despite rampant flame-application, not all enemies are burning all the time). Didn't I mention that my Elementalist does more than just drop wards? Paragons are rather more limited in their capability.
[Oh, and the spirit isn't there soley for the ward. The spirit is there for a whole range of things, primarily centered around Mark of Rodgort and a lot of minions... not to mention several heroes with secondary Mesmer and Mantra of Flame... plus all the elementalists have Pyromancer armour].

Quote:

Wards (particularly Harm and Elements) encourage a very counter productive thing, balling up in AoE damage, it confines them to that space.

Herohench do that anyway, amazingly enough. If they aren't going to move anyway then I'm just as well dropping a nice, friendly ward around them. Plus the Minions benefit from it too.

Quote:

Also you won't get the +100 from AoM + WvH, it's either 63 vs fire or +42 from AoM, they don't stack.

First I've heard of that... and I'm sceptical. Afterall, I am fairly certain I have actually seen a significant defensive difference when standing in the ward between going with AoM and going without it.... which shouldn't exist if the Ward itself gives the greater bonus.
Got any legitimate sources to back up your claim that they don't stack?

Quote:

Although I wouldn't use fire/water in HM (save one SH ele, but usually sticking to necro hexes and warriors). I'd never use water in NM PvE, why? Because you don't need it, because you'll get things faster with a bunch of fire eles.

I don't like playing a Fire Elementalist... and furthermore feel that I'm performing a much more useful job as a Water Elementalist than playing yet another hothead alongside Sousuke, Zhed, Cynn and the sandstorming from Herta. That much is quite apparent since Lon Zi does a better job of dealing with enemy mobs than any of my other characters except perhaps Cot Death (my SS necro).

Quote:

Paragon > Wards.

That be your opinion, and I couldn't care less for it.
I've never needed a Paragon yet and I doubt I ever will. Even Morgahn barely ever sees the light of day.

ZenRgy · Aug 20, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2007-06.php

Read armor part.

What you've told me apart from dealing wards is you're doing crappy damage with deep freeze and some other skills (when we apply how much armour PvE mobs have, especially versus ele damage). Maelstrom interrupt (which is good, but I can run that on anyone and it still does the only thing it's good for)

If I bring, a warrior (which has more DPS than an ele) with watch yourself that's all the defense I need in both HM and NM (if it's an 8 person party) I bring a paragon with ToF, but apart from what I don't think I've ever needed to run water or WaH. I've ran stability and melee on my fire ele's occasionally, but that's it.

If I had to run a defensive ele, it'd be an Air ele with bsurge, melee and stability.

You should really try running a paragon, they pretty much dominate PvE as far as defense goes.

Div · Aug 20, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Didn't I mention that my Elementalist does more than just drop wards? Paragons are rather more limited in their capability.

I've never needed a Paragon yet and I doubt I ever will. Even Morgahn barely ever sees the light of day.

And that's why all the paragons whine in their thread about how no one likes them. At least give it a try before tucking them away in your attic.

SotiCoto · Aug 21, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2007-06.php

Read armor part.

... I see.
Well fair enough. You got me there.
I haven't played my Elementalist since before that update came into play, so little wonder I didn't notice it. They certainly were stacking when I played as him.... but since they no longer do, I guess I might have to re-think part of my build... or at least how and when I use the individual skills.

Quote:

What you've told me apart from dealing wards is you're doing crappy damage with deep freeze and some other skills (when we apply how much armour PvE mobs have, especially versus ele damage). Maelstrom interrupt (which is good, but I can run that on anyone and it still does the only thing it's good for)

My damage isn't all that much less than the fire elementalist heroes are doing, and we both have our primary element maxed. The way you call it crappy almost implies that you would look down on people with 14 Fire Elementalism instead of 16 for the sake of two points.
Given that Deep Freeze is very energy-taxing and Maelstrom causes exhaustion though... it generally takes the correct Attunement to manage them correctly. I'd rather play a proper Water Elementalist with the slightly reduced damage that implies than play a Fire Elementalist with Water moves and no way to manage their energy cost (and no damage bonus on them either, hence reducing their usefulness).

Quote:

If I bring, a warrior (which has more DPS than an ele)...

On a single enemy, while conveniently forgetting that PvE has hoardes in abundance

Quote:

...with watch yourself that's all the defense I need in both HM and NM (if it's an 8 person party) I bring a paragon with ToF, but apart from what I don't think I've ever needed to run water or WaH. I've ran stability and melee on my fire ele's occasionally, but that's it.

If I had to run a defensive ele, it'd be an Air ele with bsurge, melee and stability.

This isn't just a matter of what I'm bringing; it is a matter of what I'm playing. I'm playing an Elementalist... and my party set-up benefits more from having a Group-Snare, Spell-Interrupts AND decent Defensive Ward (with fair; not crappy, damage besides) ... than it would just another Fire Ele spamming Searing Flames.... so I stay Water.
I only made him in the first place because I found a Kaolin Water Staff by accident (a VERY pretty weapon)... and wanted someone appropriate to use it. I built Lon Zi around that. Fire Elementalism wouldn't even look right on him.
[As a side-note though, I am starting to collect Earth Elementalism skills for him, so that would be my secondary choice.]

Quote:

You should really try running a paragon, they pretty much dominate PvE as far as defense goes.

I cannot transform my Elementalist into a Paragon at will, and nor would I want to.
I might take your advice and try playing a Paragon in PvE some time (I have no shortage of character slots)..... but for now I'm quite happy with the characters I have. Besides... I'm reluctant to believe that a Paragon could defend the party better than a Protection Monk... and I've seen Ritualists do a pretty good job of it from time to time as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

And that's why all the paragons whine in their thread about how no one likes them. At least give it a try before tucking them away in your attic.

... I have a PvE character of every class except Paragon and Mesmer. Presently the rest of my slots are full of storage characters and a few Fort Aspenwood slots.
While I do my utmost to try and get the full Guild Wars experience.... I have my limits.
#1. I don't get much fun out of playing many of my characters. My Dervish and Ranger are practically unused once I got them levelled up. My Ritualist is still level 3 and has been for absolutely ages. My Warrior is in Pre-Searing Ascalon and trying to death-level her up has caused me no end of strife. I doubt if I played a Paragon that I would really feel the inclination to carry on for very long... as my favourite characters tend to dominate my attention.
#2. Odd as it might sound, I'm not much of one for support roles. This might confuse you given what I use my Elementalist for... but then my Elementalist is fairly effective on his own, and not just as a boost for others. I tried playing my monk in a Protection role for a while... and honestly I don't like it one bit. I expect the Paragon would end up the same way.
#3. I hate Istan. I learnt that much from my Dervish. Those two classes are the only ones I can't raise in Cantha (my preferred starting place).... and after Tau Yera's (my Dervish) experience, I don't think I want to go through that again.

That said... I may still do it at some point.... just not any time soon.

ZenRgy · Aug 21, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47

I actually run 15, I hate superior runes, save vigor that is.

The only use I see for Deep Freeze in PvE is to keep enemies bunched up for the fire ele's.

Deep Freeze gives off mediocre damage every 15 seconds (unless you run a 40/40 set). And if I run DF on a fire ele, I use [skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill], in fact I think I'm yet to make or use an ele bar that doesn't have GoLE.

I'd suggest running Morgahn as the paragon, the roles I give my para are fairly boring and best left for heroes, I run around 6 shouts or something (most are defensive) with one spear attack. But maybe you'd like it.

Cebe · Aug 21, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

[skill]Greater Conflagration[/skill] on Sousuke.
[skill]Ward Against Harm[/skill] on Lon Zi.

Interesting combination, although I'd prefer to use Greater Confageration on a Ranger hero, to free up Sousuke's Elite.

I maintain however, that outside of Hard Mode, Water is best used with another element, rather than on it's own. In Hard Mode I have found Water Magic to come in very useful, not least for it's Snares (as the monsters move faster anyway) but also for other hexes such as Blurred Vision, and the mass-interrupting Maelstrom.

I sometimes like to use a mixture of Air and Water in Normal Mode PvE, you can't beat Chilling Winds + Mind Freeze for a 14 Second Mind Freeze. A 90% slower hex for 14 seconds is particularly annoying to other humans in Fort Aspenwood and AB, but provides a great deal of amusement for me!

Mouse at Large · Aug 21, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

You can do without GoLE in a Mind Blast build

SotiCoto · Aug 21, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

I'd suggest running Morgahn as the paragon, the roles I give my para are fairly boring and best left for heroes, I run around 6 shouts or something (most are defensive) with one spear attack. But maybe you'd like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Interesting combination, although I'd prefer to use Greater Confageration on a Ranger hero, to free up Sousuke's Elite.

A note for both of you:
I use basically the same hero set-up with all my characters (quite probably because I'm Aspergian, and obsessive about doing things by a strict pattern)... and since we only have 3 Heroes in use at any one time.... I generally go with this set:

#1. Olias as Minion Master
#2. Acolyte Sousuke with Greater Conflagration & Mark of Rodgort
#3. Zhed Shadowhoof with Searing Flames

To stick Greater Conflagration on a Ranger hero instead of Sousuke wouldn't "free up Sousuke's Elite Slot" so much as remove another Hero from play.... and I rather like having two Fire Elementalists (even though only one of them has a related elite) more than having one and a Ranger.
Likewise, to stick a Paragon in there would require removing one of the others, and I have good reason to believe that the others are more useful than a Paragon would be.

I only sub in a Ranger ... and I sub it in for Zhed; not Sousuke... when I seriously need interrupts.
The only other substitution I ever make... and once again it is Zhed that gets booted out..... is to bring in Razah as a Minion Bomber + synergised support for Olias when corpses are in abundance.... unleashing an army of 18 minions onto the field of play. Once again... Sousuke holds Greater Conflagration while still being a perfectly viable Fire Elementalist.

The other four slots go to henchies, and I usually bring Cynn, two Monks and an optional 4th (e.g. Herta in Nightfall or Erys Vasburg in Echovald).

The ONLY slot that ever varies.... is that of the protagonist.
So.... the only way a Ranger is going to find their way into the party (except under an Interrupt situation) is if I'm playing the Ranger. The only way a Paragon is going to find their way into the party is if I'm playing the Paragon....
.... and if I'm discussing what I personally do with my Elementalist, then as far as I'm concerned... Paragons and Rangers don't even exist.

[ And as an incidental Addendum... I have found that keeping Sousuke as GC/MoR in the current build seems to work a lot more efficiently than setting up as another Searing Flames user... for the simple reason that it allows the Minions to trigger Mark of Rodgort... and the fact that I use Mantra of Flame liberally on several of my characters AND a few of my heroes (not to mention their having Pyromancer's armour). ]

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this little exposition....

Cebe · Aug 21, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

To stick Greater Conflagration on a Ranger hero instead of Sousuke wouldn't "free up Sousuke's Elite Slot" so much as remove another Hero from play.... and I rather like having two Fire Elementalists (even though only one of them has a related elite) more than having one and a Ranger.

It would free his slot up for me

I can work with Eles better than Rangers, because I'm more familiar with them...so when it comes to creating builds for Ranger or Elementalist heroes I often find my Ranger's elite slot very interchangeable. That being said, I will often take a Ranger hero to interrupt or spread conditions (especially Daze).

Unlike yourself I like to try to take out all heroes to "air them" or "give them a day trip"...even useless Melonni and Zenmai...so I can quite easily have a Ranger in my party. Nevertheless, Greater Conflageration + Ward against Harm may be beneficial in Hard Mode, I shall have to see...I'd tried using Greater Conflageration, Winter and Mantra of Frost on everyone, but that's just a real nuisance! Not to mention the heroes usually lose a hard res.