Curse

Test Me · Oct 21, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And that's where they should be. No reason they shouldn't be allowed to deal a little damage for themselves, however.

And Eles do fit the "support role". What, other than Fire Magic is supposed to deal damage as a primary priority?

I beg to disagree. I don't play an ele because I want to play a supportive role. I would play a monkey then, not to mention that you probably don't need 4/5 supportive caster classes in a game. Mo should suffice, and they do it best anyway.

But to explain: I have never enjoyed being in the middle of a battle taking heavy damage and relying on the Mo to prevent my death. Cause I don't trust any Mo and cause my gut reaction to such a situation is: "run the hell out of there". So I would make a terrible W I guess.

So as a backline damage dealer I am given two options: ranger or ele. I'm not particularly found of shooting arrows and I kind of like all the spell casting thing... so there I go, I'm an ele.

But then again, eles are not nukers anymore... they're turning into supportive roles... so what are people like me supposed to do?

Oh well.

Tyla · Oct 21, 2008, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

I beg to disagree. I don't play an ele because I want to play a supportive role. I would play a monkey then, not to mention that you probably don't need 4/5 supportive caster classes in a game. Mo should suffice, and they do it best anyway.

But to explain: I have never enjoyed being in the middle of a battle taking heavy damage and relying on the Mo to prevent my death. Cause I don't trust any Mo and cause my gut reaction to such a situation is: "run the hell out of there". So I would make a terrible W I guess.

So as a backline damage dealer I am given two options: ranger or ele. I'm not particularly found of shooting arrows and I kind of like all the spell casting thing... so there I go, I'm an ele.

But then again, eles are not nukers anymore... they're turning into supportive roles... so what are people like me supposed to do?

Oh well.

Elementalists were never nukers. And, if you would be so kind and really want to deal damage as a spellcaster on an Elementalist... (I can't believe I'm quoting myself off the same thread here...)

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Go /Me. Run Ether Renewal. Bring Arcane Echo and Cry of Pain, then a fast casting Mesmer hex. (Conjure Nightmare etc.), CoP the shit out of them.

Oh, that was hard...

Test Me · Oct 21, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Dude, did you ever read the profession description for an ele?

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The Elementalist commands the four elemental forces: earth, air, fire, and water. With magic derived from the very foundations of nature itself, Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession.

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/pr.../elementalist/

Need I say more? That quoted sentence there is why I play "wizard" in all games I've played, and it was always described as above.

Tyla · Oct 21, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

What, and Warriors are supposed to be "tanks" and Monks are supposed to "just heal"?

Just because it says that doesn't make it out to be true; heck, the "can inflict more damage in a single strike" thing was disproven in '05...

Test Me · Oct 21, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

And your point is what, more precisely?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

What, and Warriors are supposed to be "tanks" and Monks are supposed to "just heal"?

Warriors fit the bill for tanks. Monks fit the bill for healers.
Eles on the other hand are pathetic as damage dealers.

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Just because it says that doesn't make it out to be true; heck, the "can inflict more damage in a single strike" thing was disproven in '05...

And that is my problem as well. The description clarifies the intent and the game today is a proof of a failed implementation of the ele class that is getting worse with each update.

But don't go around saying that "they were never supposed to be nukers", that is plain wrong.

Anyway, eles are one of the most pathetic classes now and this comes from someone that has been playing one as the primary toon for years.

And I find it sad cause I can't figure any other class to fit my playstyle.

Tyla · Oct 21, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

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Originally Posted by Test Me

Warriors fit the bill for tanks.

Warriors in this game don't tank, unless the player is godawful.

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Monks fit the bill for healers.

Monks only heal when they miss certain prots.

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Eles on the other hand are pathetic as damage dealers.

Considering that 3/4 of the Elementalists' main skill lines consist of mainframe support, do you really think that they were "built for damage"?

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And that is my problem as well. The description clarifies the intent and the game today is a proof of a failed implementation of the ele class that is getting worse with each update.

Then that's a problem with the actual description, not the problem with the class. Anyway, you do understand that Elementalists have actually been buffed to gain a bit more pressure through a Mind Blaster, right?

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But don't go around saying that "they were never supposed to be nukers", that is plain wrong.

Again, 3/4 attribute lines are for support.

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And I find it sad cause I can't figure any other class to fit my playstyle.

Necromancers have Discord. Mesmers (or anything that would run CoP...) have CoP.

I've already said it; run CoP. If your playstyle is bashing them from the backlines, I've offered completely viable solutions to your problem already.

Perfected Shadow · Oct 22, 2008, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

So as a backline damage dealer I am given two options: ranger or ele.

And I find it sad cause I can't figure any other class to fit my playstyle.

Reroll to a necro and use Discord, Necrosis and CoP and not worry about energy.

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The description clarifies the intent and the game today is a proof of a failed implementation of the ele class that is getting worse with each update.

How did it get worse? You wanna compare Prophecies with Mind Blast, Searing Flames, Savannah Heat?

daze · Oct 22, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Again, 3/4 attribute lines are for support.

most of what you say has merit, however saying that 3/4 of the ele attributes are for support is an obvious mis-calculation.

Fire - AoE Damage
Air - Spike damage awith little utility
Earth - Good damage with KD and utility
Water - Light damage with Hex and slowdown Utility

Now when you say "support" do you actually mean "utility"?
i was under the impression that there are 3 parts to a team

Damage -- Spike, AoE, PBAoE, DPS (Lightning Hammer, Rodgorts invocation)
Utility -- Hex, conditions, wards, interrupts (Deep freeze, Blinding Flash)
Support -- Prots, Heals, Buffs (....aura of restoration?)

Test Me · Oct 22, 2008, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Warriors in this game don't tank, unless the player is godawful.

Oh really? There was me playing with all these W in Vloxen HM and they were body blocking the hoards of enemies. Oh and same story in the forge.

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Monks only heal when they miss certain prots.

The point is that Mo heal, it is part of what they're supposed to do and they do it very good/best. So again, what's your point?

Anyway I am not interested in talking about Mo and W, I don't even know why you brought them in the discussion. They fit very well their profession description so let's not diverge, I'm talking about eles and their profession description and skills.

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I've already said it; run CoP. If your playstyle is bashing them from the backlines, I've offered completely viable solutions to your problem already.

I am well aware of cryway and it also means running on an ele with a full Me bar almost. Not to mention it is all based on *one single skill* (the ele nuking was reduced to that, but that's ok it's a "viable solution"), one skill that they are "monitoring closely" and considering for a future nerf. Sounds fantastic and really "viable".

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Considering that 3/4 of the Elementalists' main skill lines consist of mainframe support, do you really think that they were "built for damage"?

You obviously don't know the ele skills. Have a look on the wiki:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fire_magic
28 out of 32 skills are damage skills, and I can't really call the rest support (unless you want to believe something like fire attunement a support skill).

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Air_Magic
26 our of 30 - damage inflicting

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Earth_Magic
17 out of 35 - damage

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Water_Magic
16 out of 29 - damage

So that is kind of a total of 87 out of 129 skills of damage, which approximates to 2/3 of of all skills. And I only counted direct damage dealing skills not hexes inflicting burning (which is debatable but I wouldn't call that support) and also attunements are not really support skills as well. So that leaves less than 1/4 skills in the "support" zone.

Eles were definitively not build for support roles. And to be honest when I started playing gw years ago I've read all the prof descriptions even before I bought it and I found ele to match exactly what I wanted to play. Until HM came out first time, eles where living up to their description.

Now with HM out eles are useless damage dealers. Yes they can go cryway but that is not an ele, that is a Me. Actually it is well known even to the ANet designers that Me do a lot better at nuking with ele skills than ele do. That's why they nerfed glowing gaze and the like to look at the points invested in energy storage instead.

So don't try to convince me I should be fine with a supportive role on my main toon, that is not why I chose to play an ele and the description and skills of the class point out that support was not the intent of this class. I don't understand what's there for you to gain that you keep arguing eles should be a support class, don't we have plenty support caster classes already?

MirkoTeran · Oct 22, 2008, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

The point is that Mo heal, it is part of what they're supposed to do and they do it very good/best. So again, what's your point?

If your monk friends only heal they are well, bad. Damage migration (prots, shouts) > Heals.

Similar goes for tanking wars. Why would you give a class with highest consistent DPS a sup-pair build so he can stand there and 'tank'?

Test Me · Oct 22, 2008, 08:49 AM // 08:49

PS: And for some history:

Quote:

Nuking

In PvE game-play, the Elementalist can usually be found filling a heavy damage role called a "nuker". The role of a nuker is to inflict large amounts of damage over a given area in a short period of time weakening or killing whole groups of enemies. This is typically done using Fire Magic, which lends this role its nickname, but other elements are being used with the introduction of some new skills like the elite skill Sandstorm. An efficient nuker will usually remain behind a set of tanks while casting spells from a distance. In PvE, a nuker may effectively take out an entire group at once just by understanding the effects of their skills on the enemy AI.

In case you did not know what a nuker is and how the term got invented or where it comes from. I think I've gave enough arguments, if you still believe that eles where never meant to nuke... then we have a communication problem here and nothing I would say would matter.

Test Me · Oct 22, 2008, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

If your monk friends only heal they are well, bad. Damage migration (prots, shouts) > Heals.

Similar goes for tanking wars. Why would you give a class with highest consistent DPS a sup-pair build so he can stand there and 'tank'?

Let's stop discussing Mo and W, it isn't about them. For the record I agree with you in what concerns Mo and W. They're better off preventing damage than healing, etc bla bla... all very well known.

daze · Oct 22, 2008, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

You obviously don't know the ele skills. Have a look on the wiki:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fire_magic
28 out of 32 skills are damage skills, and I can't really call the rest support (unless you want to believe something like fire attunement a support skill).

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Air_Magic
26 our of 30 - damage inflicting

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Earth_Magic
17 out of 35 - damage

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Water_Magic
16 out of 29 - damage

So that is kind of a total of 87 out of 129 skills of damage, which approximates to 2/3 of of all skills. And I only counted direct damage dealing skills not hexes inflicting burning (which is debatable but I wouldn't call that support) and also attunements are not really support skills as well. So that leaves less than 1/4 skills in the "support" zone.

You win this thread. Just for taking the time to count every ele skill.
That sir is dedication to your point.

cataphract · Oct 22, 2008, 12:59 PM // 12:59

IMO, eles are meant to deal damage. If one has reservations about them in HM, go Air and bring Lightning Orb. That -20 AL helps a lot. Secondary /Me can spread it amongst the mob fairly quickly. Meteor Shower, although with reduced damage, can still be of great help with its KD ability. Also, mobs seem to flee AoE a lot less while MS is raining on them.

Air eles in HM ftw.

Perfected Shadow · Oct 22, 2008, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

And to be honest when I started playing gw years ago I've read all the prof descriptions even before I bought it and I found ele to match exactly what I wanted to play. Until HM came out first time, eles where living up to their description.

Pack Weaken Armor on a nec hero.

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Eles were definitively not build for support roles.

So don't try to convince me I should be fine with a supportive role on my main toon, that is not why I chose to play an ele and the description and skills of the class point out that support was not the intent of this class.

Eles are still viable damage dealers. But physicals just surpass them. On the flip side eles are capable of support that those physicals cannot hope to provide.

Btw, who's trying to force you into playing support? I can't imagine PUGs do; they'd rage at you if you ping a support bar because they're always "LF NUKKERS".

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I don't understand what's there for you to gain that you keep arguing eles should be a support class

"should be" seems odd. The game is what it is and eles simply seem more useful as support characters rather than damage dealers in the current state. People here like to be optimal as possible. What you're looking for though are buffs to ele damage dealing. A good start could be placing suggestions in Sardelac about bringing Intensity and Elemental Lord up to par with other pve skills.

Tyla · Oct 22, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Oh really? There was me playing with all these W in Vloxen HM and they were body blocking the hoards of enemies. Oh and same story in the forge.

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Warriors in this game don't tank, unless the player is godawful.

See what I did there?

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The point is that Mo heal, it is part of what they're supposed to do and they do it very good/best. So again, what's your point?

No, they prot. They don't do it "best", Elementalists heal "best" because they can actually spam Infuse over and over and over. (Not getting into the Mo vs. E discussion, so don't get smart - you know where that belongs)

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Anyway I am not interested in talking about Mo and W, I don't even know why you brought them in the discussion. They fit very well their profession description so let's not diverge, I'm talking about eles and their profession description and skills.

Oh sorry. It's just a comparison of how dumb the whole "just because they said it" thing is. Heck, looking back at old packaging you could tell how diverted it was, and back then it was still disproven.

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I am well aware of cryway and it also means running on an ele with a full Me bar almost. Not to mention it is all based on *one single skill* (the ele nuking was reduced to that, but that's ok it's a "viable solution"), one skill that they are "monitoring closely" and considering for a future nerf. Sounds fantastic and really "viable".

You mean like Nuking for Eles from Nightfall onward was based on one skill too? Searing Flames just encase you don't know.

Quote:

You obviously don't know the ele skills. Have a look on the wiki:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fire_magic
28 out of 32 skills are damage skills, and I can't really call the rest support (unless you want to believe something like fire attunement a support skill).

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Air_Magic
26 our of 30 - damage inflicting

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Earth_Magic
17 out of 35 - damage

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Water_Magic
16 out of 29 - damage

So that is kind of a total of 87 out of 129 skills of damage, which approximates to 2/3 of of all skills. And I only counted direct damage dealing skills not hexes inflicting burning (which is debatable but I wouldn't call that support) and also attunements are not really support skills as well. So that leaves less than 1/4 skills in the "support" zone.

And what have all these attribute lines, other than Fire Magic got in common?

The only skills in Water Magic that don't support and take part in the damage role only are Vapor Blade, Ice Blade, Conjure Frost, Shatterstone and to a lesser extent Mirror of Ice. The rest are all used for support, unless for some reason Shard Storm is for damage now.

Lightning Strike, Lightning Orb, Chain Lightning, Lightning Surge, Lightning Hammer, Lightning Bolt, Invoke Lightning, Ride The Lightning, Conjure Lightning, Glimmering Mark and Arc Lightning are all (priority) damage skills. The rest do some form of support. That's only 11 skills dealing damage as a priority.

Aftershock, Crystal Wave, Dragon's Stomp, Earthquake, Magnetic Surge, Obisidan Flame, Sandstorm, Shockwave, Stone Daggers, Teinai's Crystals are all priority damage dealing skills, the rest do support.

I'm not counting Fire Magic, because we all know that's a skill line based around damage.

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Eles were definitively not build for support roles. And to be honest when I started playing gw years ago I've read all the prof descriptions even before I bought it and I found ele to match exactly what I wanted to play. Until HM came out first time, eles where living up to their description.

No, they weren't. Physicals were always able to deal more damage.

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Now with HM out eles are useless damage dealers. Yes they can go cryway but that is not an ele, that is a Me. Actually it is well known even to the ANet designers that Me do a lot better at nuking with ele skills than ele do. That's why they nerfed glowing gaze and the like to look at the points invested in energy storage instead.

Mesmers don't nuke "better" than an Ele with Ele skills. They only have Fast Casting which could be easily replicated in PvE by any class through Mind Bender. The energy gain nerfs weren't based on anything but Water Magic which show how clueless you are on the topic. It was nerfed because of the heavy abuse on Water Magic with Mesmers in PvE to make them virtually uninterruptable.

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So don't try to convince me I should be fine with a supportive role on my main toon, that is not why I chose to play an ele and the description and skills of the class point out that support was not the intent of this class. I don't understand what's there for you to gain that you keep arguing eles should be a support class, don't we have plenty support caster classes already?

All of the casters should support in one way or another. The damage dealing options of casters is heavily inferior to a physicals'. (Not comparing the strength for those who would try to argue Discord or CoP, as those are only two skills compared to the rest; this isn't the thread anyway)

Test Me · Oct 22, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

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Originally Posted by Tyla

I'm not counting Fire Magic, because we all know that's a skill line based around damage.

According to you, you should. Meteor shower is obviously a support spell cause it causes KD. (I'm being ironic).

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The energy gain nerfs weren't based on anything but Water Magic which show how clueless you are on the topic.

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Because of the higher cast time on Water Magic spells, fast-casting Mesmer/Elementalist were favored over primary Elementalists in competitive play. To shift the balance back toward primary Elementalists, we've increased the importance of a high Water Magic attribute for two key spells: Glowing Ice and Icy Shackles. Glimmering Mark became too weak when the damage stopped ignoring armor, so we raised the damage level to compensate.

After last week's modest adjustments to selected Water Magic skills, we've found that fast-casting Mesmer/Elementalists are still superior to Water Magic Elementalist primaries in Guild Battles. We've made Glowing Ice, Glowing Gaze, Glowstone, and Shock Arrow return Energy based on Energy Storage to give Elementalist primaries an advantage.

I am obviously clueless and you are obviously clueful. As I don't find we can have a discussion anymore, I stop here. You may go on of course.

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At the end of the day and to answer the original question of this post: eles aren't much useful in HM, they were meant to be an attack based class but they fail at that so as an option you may pick on a supportive role.

Wards are useless as party members can't stay in the area of effect most of the time and the area of effect is most of the time in the backline since eles can't get close, and snares might be useful but they require almost no attribute points investment so they can be used by sec eles with no problem.

The ele itself does not excel in anything and going as a full Mo, N or Me as suggested by previous people that posted here can provide far better support than an ele. An ele is pretty much a waste of a party slot these days in HM, better use another primary.

And it hurts to admit that (as a primary ele for many years now), but that is the honest true. If I don't want to handicap my team I switch my primary, it is only when I beg my guild to take me with them for some HoM decoration that I play the ele in HM/elite areas and the such.

xDusT II · Oct 23, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Energy Storage + Mind Blast + PvE Skills is still better than what I imagine half the population in Guild wars consider is good in HM.

Improvavel · Oct 23, 2008, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Body blocking is a PvE warrior (or any melee and paragons sometimes) role. But they do that while they deal damage.

There is very very few ways casters can surpass buffed physicals for damage in HM.

Just because you cant deal direct damage doesn't mean Eles aren't useful. I guess they should make the person that casts splinter weapon/great dwarf weapon/battle standards/order of pain see the damage its doing - guess it would make some e-penis happier.

Eles have large energy pools, great energy management and can deal some damage while providing other useful effects. I sure love when an Ele cast an Aegis or when drops an Ebon Battle standard of honor or a great dwarf weapon on my ranger. And that is what I do when I play my ele in HM.

Either you decide to use that energy to pump useless low damage skills or useful stuff.

Jeydra · Oct 23, 2008, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Wards are useless as party members can't stay in the area of effect most of the time and the area of effect is most of the time in the backline since eles can't get close, and snares might be useful but they require almost no attribute points investment so they can be used by sec eles with no problem.

The ele itself does not excel in anything and going as a full Mo, N or Me as suggested by previous people that posted here can provide far better support than an ele. An ele is pretty much a waste of a party slot these days in HM, better use another primary.

If someone drops a Ward you should obviously stay in it whenever possible, unless it gets AoE'ed (eg. Meteor Shower, Tenai's Heat, etc). Why else would you get out?

And Elementalist healers can outperform a Monk, or at least match their effectiveness, in certain areas. I'm not saying Elementalists should always heal in HM, although that is certainly a viable choice and I know some people who do it. If you're frustrated at having no role to play, play a healing Elementalist.