Curse

EmpressOfFlame · Dec 13, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Just curious about how effective an Earth ele build can be, and what would be the best skills for such a build between Prophecies & Factions skills?

I have EotN, so perhaps some skills from there (at some point, if the build is even worth fighting through EotN) but do not have Nightfall.

Just a few things I'm noticing so far on my first Earth build:

- the exhaust aspect is rough to deal with
- spells that cause knock-down do not always knock enemies down, and only have a similar knock-down effect (giving them pause) on a few others (such as Ice Golems)
- many/most creatures in GW seem to take less dmg from Earth dmg than Fire

Q1: Are there times when you do more dmg with a spell than what the numbers show (enemies health drops further)...?

Q2: Does Earth magic/dmg always ignore armor?

Q3: Why are there such "expenses" with Earth magic, unless it's all ignoring armor? Simply due to the knock-down effect, which doesn't always even work?

Earth magic comes with some serious "expenses/penalties", most spells being very high in ene cost and causing exhaustion.

I'm not seeing/understanding the reason why, when I'm currently doing maybe two-thirds the dmg of a Fire ele at the same lvl. If Earth caused more dmg, then I'd understand the ene costs and exhaustion aspect, but...

Plus, the long casting times...

Q4: Is there a way to prevent/help exhaustion?

I've always played Fire eles, never touched Water, but have always wanted to try Earth... but, as you can see, there are some "issues" with an Earth build that I'm not understanding and definitely prove to make it tough.

Answers/information regarding these questions would be greatly appreciated, as I'd love to expand into other types of builds than the same stuff I've been running for a while.

Thanks, all

P.S.
Should you have a specific Secondary with an Earth build, such as Mes, to help with energy?

I ask because, with Fire eles, I've never used/needed skills from a Secondary, and fry everything. With this Earth build, I just took War, not thinking I'd even be using other skills.

Either way, skill recommendations are also appreciated from every campaign except Nightfall (preferably Prophecies and Factions to start).

BrettM · Dec 13, 2008, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Earth is very different from fire and does not generally do the kind of damage, especially at range, that fire magic can do. Earth is slow, largely defensive, and mostly works best on foes close to the caster. That's why the ele farming builds are largely earth builds.

There aren't really that many skills that cause exhaustion. Actually, only two: Earthquake/Dragon's Stomp (unconditional knockdown) and Obsidian Flame (high armor-ignoring damage). Fire has three skills that cause exhaustion and water has two. Air has six!!

If you use Earthquake, you usually recover from the exhaustion by the time you're ready to use it again, so it's not really a problem, though I rarely bring Earthquake on my bars. If you look at knockdown skills, this is one of the few unconditional AoE knockdowns in the game, and one of only two that work at range. The other is Meteor Shower, which also causes exhaustion. Many knockdowns in the game have costs on them, such as "lose all adrenaline".

Also, the "pause" effect you mention is related to the size of the enemy. Big ones, such as Ice Golems or Fists of the Titans, don't fall on their butts no matter who knocks them down -- spell, hammer attack, etc. They just sort of slump. The biggest, of course, can't be knocked down at all.

Obsidian Flame has a fast recharge and you can exhaust yourself completely in a big hurry. I avoid that skill except in certain specialized builds where I need a quick spike or where I can safely exhaust myself. I certainly wouldn't give that skill to a hero.

For damage, earth has some of the most damaging elites in the game, next to fire. Take a look at Unsteady Ground and Shockwave, which are both Factions and both very powerful. Shockwave is a staple of many of my HM farming builds.

Earth magic does not generally ignore armor, any more than any other elemental magic, and the yellow numbers you see are the numbers you get. Like most other kinds of damage, any "+x damage" or "causes x damage" (where the damage type is not specified) of the skill will be armor ignoring. Any "causes x <type> damage" will be non-armor-ignoring. For earth, Crystal Wave (Prophecies), Magnetic Surge (EotN), and Obsidian Flame (Core) do armor-ignoring damage. All other damage skills specifically do earth damage.

Take a look at the lists of earth and fire skills on the wiki. I think you'll find that the energy costs and cast times are generally proportional to the damage for both lines. No earth skill has a cast time higher than 3, yet Meteor Shower has a cast time of 5!

I've never found a need for a secondary profession to help me manage energy. GoLE is enough in just about every case, though usually I run Ether Renewal as my elite and rarely have any energy problems at all. My standard bar is:

Earth Attunement
Aura of Restoration
Stone Daggers
Churning Earth
Eruption
Armor of Earth (or one of the wards)
Maelstrom (leftover points in Water)
Ether Renewal

This gives me medium damage and excellent team support, plus some personal or backline defense.

Eruption is an essential earth skill, giving 10 seconds unconditional AoE blind with a nearby range to the target, which can't be matched by any other non-elite skill in the game. (Even Blinding Surge (E) gives only 6 seconds max and has only an adjacent range to the target.) Perfect to cast on a balled-up group of melee or rangers, and a great protection to the team.

Churning Earth is essential in HM, since all the enemies move faster than normal. Otherwise, it's a cheaper alternative to Eruption that I like to throw on a group of casters. They will take damage from it, while blindness would have little effect on them.

Stone Daggers is the spamable skill that powers Ether Renewal to keep my energy up. It does the same amount of damage as Flare, but divided into two packets. If one packet misses, the other usually hits, so you can always depend on at least half damage. While if Flare misses, you're out of luck.

Maelstrom I like for AoE caster shutdown, which it will do for 10 sec even at 0 Water. If I can catch a ball of casters with it and throw Churning Earth behind it, they WILL feel some hurt. If I catch a mixed ball of casters and physicals (when they do that "run together" thing), I can chuck in Eruption followed by Maelstrom and Churning Earth. The physicals will run out blind and helpless for 10 seconds, while the casters will often stand there and take all the damage from the three spells. Win-win-win!

Sorry about the Wall o' Text, but I really love playing earth. (BTW, I've completed Protector for all three campaigns, and I'm working on EotN, using the bar I've just described most of the time.)

freakdaddy · Dec 14, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

forgive but i dont know how to show the build

Assassins Promise-Elite-For 5...13...15 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 5...17...20 Energy and all your skills are recharged.

Glyph of Lesser energy-For the next 15 seconds, your next 2 Spells cost 10...16...18 less Energy to cast.

Eruption-Cause an Eruption at target foe's location. Each second for 5 seconds, foes near this location are struck for 10...34...40 earth damage and are Blinded for 10 seconds.

Churning Earth-Create Churning Earth at target foe's location. For the next 5 seconds, Churning Earth strikes foes near that location for 10...34...40 earth damage each second. Any foe moving faster than normal when struck by Churning Earth is knocked down.

Glowstone-Send a projectile that strikes for 5...41...50 earth damage if it hits. If this Spell hits a weakened foe, you gain 5 Energy plus 1 Energy for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage..

Earth Attunement-For 36...55...60 seconds, you are attuned to Earth. You gain 1 Energy plus 30% of the base Energy cost of the Skill each time you use Earth Magic.

2 open slots for your choosing
Earth Magic 12+1+1
Energy Storage 12+1
Deadly Arts-3
or mix and match attributes to your liking^

Also there is no exhaustion with this build and as long as you cast GoLE before Eruption and Churning Earth energy will never be a problem. cast Assassins Promise on dying or targeted enemies and keep you attunement up during the duration of the battle. The build above can be used with ANY elementalist attribute as long as you switch out the necessary skills

On topic to answer your questions a little better

Q1-No unless you also have a degen on the same creature
Q2-http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Earth_Magic#Earth_Magic_skills
Q3-expenses can be negated if used properly.
Q4-Don't use exhaustion spells

BrettM · Dec 14, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

The AP build is nice, but I think it lacks some flexibility, since you're tied to sin as secondary.

With the ER build, I can switch secondaries at will to fit in useful skills for a particular quest or mission. For example, I can go secondary rit and put Gaze of Fury in for Maelstrom when doing Sunjiang District, which takes out the three portal spirits instantly. Often there is a useful skill available in the secondary which requires no redistribution of earth and energy storage attributes to get the special effect I need to make something easier. Maelstrom does interrupts as 0 water. Gaze of Fury kills spirits at 0 channeling, etc. You miss out on the damage those skills can do in the hands of a water mage or channeling rit, but that's fine.

I can also switch out Aura of Restoration for a PvE enchant or an enchant from a secondary profession, especially when I don't need a cover enchantment. For example, I'm fond of Elemental Lord (Kurzick), which is quite useful once you reach rank 4 so it stays up longer than its recharge. AoR is, of course, a lousy self heal, and I don't really need it for that, since ER provides massive self healing along with energy.

I like having options.

TheOrangeFalcon · Dec 14, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Earth isn't really used for damage. As said above it is mostly defensive and it is a wonderful thing to have in HM.

[[email protected]][[email protected]][churning [email protected]][enfeebling [email protected]][[email protected]][Ward Against [email protected]][[email protected]][earth [email protected]]

The above is generally what most people run, with slight changes for different areas/preferances/pve skills etc. UG KDs attackers, which causes damage mitigation and prevents them from kiting. Eruption and WaM are pretty obvious. Churning Earth KDs anyone that moves because of the speed buff on monsters in HM. Weakness is always good with enfeebling blood, along with choice KDs with stoning.

Q1: Well I guess if you KD someone to stay in some AoE than ya I guess so, but not really.

Q2:No.

Q3: Long cast/recharge/costs are there because the spells are much more powerful than you are giving them credit. But really, its not that much more different than the other elements.

Q4:[Glyph of Energy] But you dont really want/need to use that.

EmpressOfFlame · Dec 14, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

<snip>

No, I thank you for that great amount of information, thank you!

I thank everyone else for their input as well, it's all much appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOrangeFalcon

Long cast/recharge/costs are there because the spells are much more powerful than you are giving them credit.

Well, that's where I disagree. I give them "credit" for what they do/put out, which is strong in some ways, but a little lacking IMO compared to what it should/could be.

As BrettM has said, it's definitely seeming to me to be more of a defensive build, and is not really a high dmg build. If set up right, it definitely seems you could definitely cause some havoc on enemies, and I'm liking Earth (have been wanting to run one for quite some time), but the dmg output just isn't what I was expecting.

Enemies of most types seem to take much less dmg from Earth, than from Fire. Example: we all know that on many enemies you will not do the damage any given spell might be maxed-out at (Rodgort's maxed at lvl 15 rates at 127 dmg, but you'll almost never see that).

However, with Earth, it's seeming usually less than half of the spells rated dmg, where as with Fire, it's usually between half and two-thirds (usually at the least), not to mention after effects, such as burning. It seems that enemies are just not effected nearly as much as with Fire.

What makes it more frustrating, is the choice between what seem to be the two best Elite skills: Ether Renewal and Shockwave.

Energy Storage seems even more of a necessity to be higher for Earth builds, yet, Shockwave seems one of the most powerful offensive skills.

I'll give BrettM's build a try, and see how it goes. Of course, I have to get to the point with this toon in Factions to nab Shockwave first, then see how it goes. Definitely a bit more difficult to put together/run than a Fire ele build.

Been having fun with it so far, but at 12 Earth right now (which I'll max to 15 soon), it's just not seeming all that effective. Have to see... would really like to continue it, though.

Again, thanks for the info!

Definitely interesting to me to learn about new builds (and this one in particular) and the best methods of running them.

TheOrangeFalcon · Dec 14, 2008, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressOfFlame

Well, that's where I disagree. I give them "credit" for what they do/put out, which is strong in some ways, but a little lacking IMO compared to what it should/could be.

AoE KD and AoE blind over time. Name something else that can do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressOfFlame

As BrettM has said, it's definitely seeming to me to be more of a defensive build, and is not really a high dmg build. If set up right, it definitely seems you could definitely cause some havoc on enemies, and I'm liking Earth (have been wanting to run one for quite some time), but the dmg output just isn't what I was expecting.

Ele and HM and good damage don't belong together unless you're talking about abusing PvE skills, in which case your element wont matter. In HM ele damage is pitiful sadly. Fire is worse than the other elements here because fire is all damage, while everything has damage and utility. Additionally, fire is bad in EotN because there is a lot of armor vs fire and a lot of anti burning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressOfFlame

Enemies of most types seem to take much less dmg from Earth, than from Fire. Example: we all know that on many enemies you will not do the damage any given spell might be maxed-out at (Rodgort's maxed at lvl 15 rates at 127 dmg, but you'll almost never see that).

However, with Earth, it's seeming usually less than half of the spells rated dmg, where as with Fire, it's usually between half and two-thirds (usually at the least), not to mention after effects, such as burning. It seems that enemies are just not effected nearly as much as with Fire.

Try running through an area, say like the Factions city, with fire and then earth and you should see the same reduction. Don't fight like plants or anything because of the weakness to fire and stuff. Also, don't fight enemies with high armor against fire, like almost anything in EotN. But again, earth isn't about the raw damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressOfFlame

What makes it more frustrating, is the choice between what seem to be the two best Elite skills: Ether Renewal and Shockwave.

Energy Storage seems even more of a necessity to be higher for Earth builds, yet, Shockwave seems one of the most powerful offensive skills.

[UG]>Ether Renewal>Shockwave. AoE KD is something you should be using when you can. Ether Renewal is good, but you really shouldn't need it. As long as you keep Earth Attune up and use GoLE when you can, you should be fine. Shockwave may seem good, but it only really works in a few farming builds. Reason being is, you're an ele. You have 60 AL. Shockwave requires you to be in the frontlines basically, which is bad. Also, all your damage is being reduced, just as you said above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressOfFlame

Been having fun with it so far, but at 12 Earth right now (which I'll max to 15 soon), it's just not seeming all that effective. Have to see... would really like to continue it, though.

Run 14 not 15. The +1 really doesn't justify the health loss. More so with earth than the other elements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressOfFlame

Again, thanks for the info!

Definitely interesting to me to learn about new builds (and this one in particular) and the best methods of running them.

Np =)

BrettM · Dec 14, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Shockwave, despite its power, is not something I'd recommend for ordinary PvE play. Like many of the most damaging earth skills (such as Aftershock and Crystal Wave), it only works if you're in the middle of a group of foes, which is NOT where you usually want to be as an ele unless you're farming solo.

The two best earth elites for regular play are Unsteady Ground and Sandstorm (an NF elite), and I consider UG > Sandstorm in most cases. As TheOrangeFalcon said, a UG build with GoLE and Earth Attunement is a good way to go and you shouldn't have much problem with energy using it. I've used variants of this in a number of cases, such as doing Hell's Precipice in HM and while vanquishing. It is certainly a better way to go than ER in areas with heavy enchant hate from necros.

Secondary necro with Enfeebling Blood plus Glowstone is effective for energy management, or Glowstone and Stoning if you have a curses necro on the team to do the enfeebling. (The Ebon Hawk + Glowstone combo is vastly inferior to that, and Ward of Weakness + Glowstone puts you back in the middle of the action again, where you don't want to be.) However, I'm not too fond of most of the projectile spells, because they require line of sight and I like being able to cast something from cover whenever possible. Also, the earth projectile spells are slow and have a high chance of a miss if you're too far away or have a moving target. Projectile spells can be nice if you can spec some points into Air and bring Glyph of Swiftness, but there are usually better ways to go. I usually don't bring them unless I really need single-target damage, which is, again, usually in solo farming builds.

All that said, I still like playing with my ER build most of the time, even if it's a bit noobish. It's just more fun to spam Stone Daggers instead of standing around waiting for your other spells to recharge, and the massive self heal from ER takes some pressure off the monks.

zinfamous · Dec 28, 2008, 06:35 PM // 18:35

If you can get a nice mob to stay clustered for 5 seconds, a Churning Earth, Deep Freeze, Sandstorm bomb is pretty tough to beat. I bring Glyph of lesser energy to counteract the Deep Freeze.

I love Unsteady Ground, but prefer Sandstorm as I'd rather the attackers take the damage than the knockdown. The Deep Freeze more or less guarantees that your victims will remain long enough to take the brunt of the attack.

Earth atunement, of course. the rest is to your preference. I now prefer earth to fire.

And yeah, most of the great damage skills are factions

Chthon · Dec 28, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressOfFlame

Q1: Are there times when you do more dmg with a spell than what the numbers show (enemies health drops further)...?

Yes, if the monster has less than 60 armor against earth damage. This is common early in the game, but later you'll discover everything ends up with significantly more than 60 armor vs. earth and you'll do quite a bit less than the listed damage.

Quote:

Q2: Does Earth magic/dmg always ignore armor?

No, earth damage never ignores armor. If you want to ignore armor, add EBSofHonor to your build, then use something to produce a lot of damage packets for it to boost.

Quote:

Q3: Why are there such "expenses" with Earth magic, unless it's all ignoring armor? Simply due to the knock-down effect, which doesn't always even work?

Yep. You've got to remember that GW was for a long time balanced solely around PvP play, PvE be damned. Ranged knockdown is very powerful in PvP, hence the heavy drawback.

Quote:

Q4: Is there a way to prevent/help exhaustion?

Don't use skills that cause exhaustion, or use them infrequently.

Quote:

P.S.
Should you have a specific Secondary with an Earth build, such as Mes, to help with energy?

Assassin for Assassin's Promise. Otherwise, doesn't matter. You already have the best energy management skills of any class.

This build is nice:
[build][Assassin's Promise][Eruption][Churning Earth][Finish Him][GOLE][Ward Against Melee][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Mindbender][/build]