Curse

daze · Jan 19, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

The thing about the normal fire spells is that they cause exactly the same damage as earth magic spells. And that's why they suck: They do nothing but damage (and sometimes inflict burning) while earth magic does the same damage and useful stuff on top of that (like knockdown or blindness).

See the thing about your blanket statements is they are inaccurate. Unless you dont actually mean "exactly" the same when you say exactly the same. But i understand. Lots of people use words that are inaccurate or embellish their point to prove someone wrong

For the sake of argument lets say that we are dealing with standard 60 armor foes where the damage on paper is the same as the yellow numbers. Ok so lets compare the highest direct 1 hit spell first in earth then fire. We are looking at AoE spells because they obviously put up more yellow numbers.
ok so here we go. All attribs are at 12 for this.

Single shot AoE
----
[[email protected]]/[dragons [email protected]] ignoring the KD aspect. it does 85 AoE damage
[rodgorts [email protected]] ignoring the burning aspect. It does 99 AoE damage

winner.. [rodgorts [email protected]]

PBAoE
----
[[email protected]] does 85 damage with potential of 141 on kd foes.
[[email protected]] 114 damage guaranteed damage
or [bed of [email protected]] Potential 240 Damage with more potential on KD foes

winner.. [bed of [email protected]] was hard to choose a winner in this category because hard to determine the value of guaranteed over massive potential.

Area Spells with D.O.T
----
[churning [email protected]]/[[email protected]] 170 damage over time
[searing [email protected]]/[teinais [email protected]] 170 damage over time with burning

winner.. Tie!! unless you count the damage from burning then the winner would be [searing [email protected]]/[teinais [email protected]]

[lava [email protected]] would have also been a better choice for area DOT spell but the range is not as wide as the earth contenders.

Elite
----
[[email protected]] potential 260 with more potential of 520!
[Savannah [email protected]] potential 170 damage

winner.. [[email protected]] got to give it up that is some serious damage.

Overall winner.... Fire!!!

So when it comes to just the damage standpoint, An ignorant statement would be "The thing about the normal fire spells is that they cause exactly the same damage as earth magic spells."

MegaVolti · Jan 19, 2009, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

OP clearly stated he's talking about Nightfall, but you stated just as clearly that you were talking about the whole Guild Wars universe. So is there any place in the whole of Guild Wars where Fire Magic does good damage in HM? Yes? Good, we have that settled then.

By the way I'm not getting into a cryway vs. (insert Fire build) Snowman dungeon run unless you're serious enough to post screenshots. Also by the way, Meteor Shower is in the Fire line and it does KD. Fire causes more damage than Earth, that much should be obvious. In return, Earth magic spells have a lot more other effects like knockdown, blind, etc.

@Improvavel - I prefer 'minion masters are good most of the time', which would cover all those areas.

I decide what I am talking about. I tried to avoid your stupid nitpicking and turn this into a discussion about efficiency in GW but you only seem to be interested in "winning" this stupid nitpicking argument.
So I give up trying to explain GW stuff and I end the nickpicking argument. The topic is about Nightfall. I win at nickpicking. Get over it. And now let's get back to something constructive, this is just pointless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

[...]

Obviously a misunderstanding: With "normal" fire spells I didn't mean "any non-elite fire spell" but "the normal/usually used fire spells in the popular fire builds". Mainly [[searing heat] and the other DoT spells. Or even [[meteor shower], which offers about the same damage. They are exactly tied in damage with the earth spells (but offer a much more useful condition).
As for the others:
Comparing PBAoE is quite pointless since they are not used outside of gimmick builds anyway.
As for DoT spells in general you simply can not assume that they deal damage for their full duration. It almost never happens.

subarucar · Jan 19, 2009, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

See the thing about your blanket statements is they are inaccurate. Unless you dont actually mean "exactly" the same when you say exactly the same. But i understand. Lots of people use words that are inaccurate or embellish their point to prove someone wrong

For the sake of argument lets say that we are dealing with standard 60 armor foes where the damage on paper is the same as the yellow numbers. Ok so lets compare the highest direct 1 hit spell first in earth then fire. We are looking at AoE spells because they obviously put up more yellow numbers.
ok so here we go. All attribs are at 12 for this.

Single shot AoE
----
[[email protected]]/[dragons [email protected]] ignoring the KD aspect. it does 85 AoE damage
[rodgorts [email protected]] ignoring the burning aspect. It does 99 AoE damage

winner.. [rodgorts [email protected]]

PBAoE
----
[[email protected]] does 85 damage with potential of 141 on kd foes.
[[email protected]] 114 damage guaranteed damage
or [bed of [email protected]] Potential 240 Damage with more potential on KD foes

winner.. [bed of [email protected]] was hard to choose a winner in this category because hard to determine the value of guaranteed over massive potential.

Area Spells with D.O.T
----
[churning [email protected]]/[[email protected]] 170 damage over time
[searing [email protected]]/[teinais [email protected]] 170 damage over time with burning

winner.. Tie!! unless you count the damage from burning then the winner would be [searing [email protected]]/[teinais [email protected]]

[lava [email protected]] would have also been a better choice for area DOT spell but the range is not as wide as the earth contenders.

Elite
----
[[email protected]] potential 260 with more potential of 520!
[Savannah [email protected]] potential 170 damage

winner.. [[email protected]] got to give it up that is some serious damage.

Overall winner.... Fire!!!

So when it comes to just the damage standpoint, An ignorant statement would be "The thing about the normal fire spells is that they cause exactly the same damage as earth magic spells."

Some of these comparisons dont take into account the size of the AoE. And one compares a one hit spell with a DOT spell, the DOT will cause scatter, meaning its damage potential is reduced, also DOT can "Miss" (if you target is moving they may only take 1 hit the AoE, while often they will take no damage at all), whit one hit spells will also "Hit". Also Energy cost and recharge time effect the damage potential, if i have a spell that does 100 damage and take 1 second to recharge, i will do more damage tan a spell with 200 damage but a 5 sec recharge. Also i have a spell that deal 100 damage that costs 5 energy, i will be able to use it more than a spell that costs 25 energy but does 200 damage, therefore the 100 damage spell will o more damage.

Cebe · Jan 19, 2009, 10:25 AM // 10:25

This thread is getting highly technical - picking on the wording of people's statements in order to score points.

The comparisons given by daze were cute, but fairly useless. Knockdown is a massive factor of Earth Magic, and whilst some of the fire magic skills you display may deal more damage (according to the numbers) than their earth magic "equivalents", the fact that I can cast Eruption and Unsteady Ground in quick succession on, say, a group of Warriors, means that whilst attacking the warriors are forced to stay in the AoE for longer thanks to UG's knockdown effect. With a fire magic AoE skill the Warriors are highly likely to flee.

It must not be forgotten that knockdown is a great way of stopping a foe's damage output also. If you can keep a group of physicals licking floor, they're not pressuring Dunkoro and forcing him to flee like a little girl. Earth Magic offers reasonable offense with great defense. A very nice balance for most PvE teams.

There is nothing wrong with Fire Magic in Normal Mode as far as damage output is concerned. It's acceptable. But Earth Magic offers so much more, and is far more robust in Hard Mode.

Jeydra · Jan 19, 2009, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

I decide what I am talking about. I tried to avoid your stupid nitpicking and turn this into a discussion about efficiency in GW but you only seem to be interested in "winning" this stupid nitpicking argument.
So I give up trying to explain GW stuff and I end the nickpicking argument. The topic is about Nightfall. I win at nickpicking. Get over it. And now let's get back to something constructive, this is just pointless.

It means don't make statements you can't defend, and don't stretch 'proofs' to where they aren't valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Obviously a misunderstanding: With "normal" fire spells I didn't mean "any non-elite fire spell" but "the normal/usually used fire spells in the popular fire builds". Mainly Searing Heat and the other DoT spells. Or even Meteor Shower, which offers about the same damage. They are exactly tied in damage with the earth spells (but offer a much more useful condition).

Searing Heat does more damage than Eruption / Churning Earth if you consider the burning. And of course what Earth spell is there to compare to Immolate, Liquid Flame, Fireball, Meteor, Rodgort's Invocation? Don't say these aren't used, because all of them are.

As I wrote above, don't stretch 'proofs' to where they aren't valid. Earth Magic is better than Fire in HM PvE, yes - but don't claim Earth does equal damage, because it doesn't. You trying to do so is very reminiscent of the 'let's bash Fire Eles' mentality mentioned earlier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subarucar

Also Energy cost and recharge time effect the damage potential, if i have a spell that does 100 damage and take 1 second to recharge, i will do more damage tan a spell with 200 damage but a 5 sec recharge. Also i have a spell that deal 100 damage that costs 5 energy, i will be able to use it more than a spell that costs 25 energy but does 200 damage, therefore the 100 damage spell will o more damage.

Not necessarily. Simple example - Elementalist A is spamming Flare, a spell with zero recharge. Elementalist B has Rodgort's Invocation, which is the 25-energy spell that does more damage (about twice what Flare does, basically the same as what you wrote). But Elementalist B also has Flare. Who deals more damage?

If you assume the 25-energy spell is the only spell on the bar, then yes the Flare spammer will deal more damage, but you're not restricted to only one nuke. Pretty much every Elementalist has more than one of their bar, and by alternating skills it's pretty clear having the 25-energy spell is more effective (especially since you're likely to have Glyph of Lesser Energy too).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

There is nothing wrong with Fire Magic in Normal Mode as far as damage output is concerned. It's acceptable. But Earth Magic offers so much more, and is far more robust in Hard Mode.

Agreed. I just take offense to MegaVolti saying Earth does equal damage.

Improvavel · Jan 19, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Agreed. I just take offense to MegaVolti saying Earth does equal damage.

Well, earth may even do more damage than Fire. Dead Elemantalists do no damage, and earth skills are more likely to help your party staying alive than fire ones.

Tyla · Jan 19, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

snip

I think you should take into account things people would use, aswell. PBAoE is really only going to be used on DD bars, as PBAoE sucks outside of the occasional Telespike and farming play.

You should also take into account that enemies will eventually move out of the AoE (assuming you don't have an Earth Shaker or some form of easily maintainable knockdown), hurting some of your damage potential. The power of Earth majorly relies on its utility options aswell.

If we were talking damage, I'd probably abuse Cry of Pain with Ether Renewal anyway, or run some support role with Infuse and such anyway.

Fire will deal more damage than Earth in the long run, but Earth carries utility in the same line, giving you the ability to knock down and support your party with things such as Ward Against Melee while using a second skill line to further support your party.

MegaVolti · Jan 20, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It means don't make statements you can't defend, and don't stretch 'proofs' to where they aren't valid.

I didn't. The statement is beyond any doubt true in Nightfall and this is what we are talking about here.
I also believe it to be true outside of Nightfall but this is (yes, nitpicking) of no concern here. And I really have no interest in wasting my time to prove something to you of all people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Searing Heat does more damage than Eruption / Churning Earth if you consider the burning. And of course what Earth spell is there to compare to Immolate, Liquid Flame, Fireball, Meteor, Rodgort's Invocation? Don't say these aren't used, because all of them are.

That's why I wrote:
"The thing about the normal fire spells is that they cause exactly the same damage as earth magic spells. And that's why they suck: They do nothing but damage (and sometimes inflict burning) while earth magic does the same damage and useful stuff on top of that (like knockdown or blindness)."
Please read correctly. The burning was included in my statement. I clearly took the conditions out of the equation. The reason is simple: It is applied after the duration of the AoE spell. Rarely ever will an enemy be in the AoE after the full duration - so burning really isn't that great there. Blindness and knockdown on the other hand are applied instantly, making them awesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As I wrote above, don't stretch 'proofs' to where they aren't valid. Earth Magic is better than Fire in HM PvE, yes - but don't claim Earth does equal damage, because it doesn't. You trying to do so is very reminiscent of the 'let's bash Fire Eles' mentality mentioned earlier.

Outside of [[teinai's heat] vs [[eruption] the damage numbers may vary a little but generally the earth damage is at least equal to the fire one, in most cases even better.
As has been already mentioned above: Enemies will run out of the fire AoE after 1-2 seconds in HM. The earth spells deal damage for at least 3-4 seconds due to knockdown. This is a huge difference, making earth magic in fact superior in terms of damage in most cases (which still doesn't mean a lot ... the earth damage of cause isn't great just like the fire damage in HM ... but dealing a medium amount of damage while providing tons of support at the same time is very good).

Jeydra · Jan 20, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

That's why I wrote:
"The thing about the normal fire spells is that they cause exactly the same damage as earth magic spells. And that's why they suck: They do nothing but damage (and sometimes inflict burning) while earth magic does the same damage and useful stuff on top of that (like knockdown or blindness)."
Please read correctly. The burning was included in my statement. I clearly took the conditions out of the equation. The reason is simple: It is applied after the duration of the AoE spell. Rarely ever will an enemy be in the AoE after the full duration - so burning really isn't that great there. Blindness and knockdown on the other hand are applied instantly, making them awesome.

Are you actually claiming that Meteor, Fireball, Liquid Flame, Rodgort's Invocation, Lava Arrows, Incendiary Bonds, Immolate and Smouldering Embers are somehow not normal? If you are, why are they not normal? If you are not, then how is it that they deal exactly the same damage as Earth magic spells when there aren't any Earth magic spells that do?

And I knew you would say enemies run out of AoE spells, and I'm surprised you don't know the answer. There're two points to this:

1. If enemies run out of AoE spells and never come back as you imply, Fire >>> Earth because you can make enemies flee in terror and never come back. Of course enemies are going to come back. And if they come back, they are going to take AoE damage.
2. What's stopping you from using one AoE spell followed by another, such that the first AoE spell triggers the 'flee' mechanism but the enemies come back for the time when the second AoE spell ends?

Combine these two and I see no reason why you can't trigger the burning from Searing Heat.

By the way, we're not arguing blindness and knockdown here. Your original statement made no mention of anything other than damage. If you're wondering, that means cast time, recharge, energy cost - they are ALL out of the window, or I would've attacked Eruption's 25-energy cost already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Outside of Teinai's Heat vs Eruption the damage numbers may vary a little but generally the earth damage is at least equal to the fire one, in most cases even better.
As has been already mentioned above: Enemies will run out of the fire AoE after 1-2 seconds in HM. The earth spells deal damage for at least 3-4 seconds due to knockdown. This is a huge difference, making earth magic in fact superior in terms of damage in most cases (which still doesn't mean a lot ... the earth damage of cause isn't great just like the fire damage in HM ... but dealing a medium amount of damage while providing tons of support at the same time is very good).

Name me an Earth spell that does more damage than Rodgort's Invocation, counting the burning, and I'll believe you.

daze · Jan 20, 2009, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Earth Magic is better than Fire in HM PvE, yes - but don't claim Earth does equal damage, because it doesn't.

THat is the only point i was trying to illustrate, not, the usage, not the utility. Just the simple fact that saying earth damage output is identical to fire is an ignorant statement.

Xion Air · Jan 20, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

I've noticed that. My fire ele hardly hits any good numbers anymore and I rely on my monk henchmen A LOT. Even with healing breeze the monsters keep lowering my health faster than it goes back up and i've just given up on it. I can defeat hordes of 24+ monsters (as long as I have 8 henchmen -_-) but I get lame drops. I think it's true as you get higher the fire ele gets worse and worse

i'm trying to figure out a better build for now but failing miserably lol.

faraaz · Jan 20, 2009, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xion Air

I've noticed that. My fire ele hardly hits any good numbers anymore and I rely on my monk henchmen A LOT. Even with healing breeze the monsters keep lowering my health faster than it goes back up and i've just given up on it. I can defeat hordes of 24+ monsters (as long as I have 8 henchmen -_-) but I get lame drops. I think it's true as you get higher the fire ele gets worse and worse

i'm trying to figure out a better build for now but failing miserably lol.

Make a Necro if you want to do sexy damage in high end areas.

[Assassin's Promise][You Move Like A Dwarf!][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support][Mark of Pain][Barbs][][]

[Spiteful Spirit][Arcane Echo][Cry of Pain][Mind Wrack][Enfeebling Blood][Necrosis]

Etc etc. You wont be disappointed.

bungusmaximus · Jan 20, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Eles do pretty well as support casters in high level areas, they got muchas energy so they can pack [weapon of warding], or [ward against elements]. Checked out recently buffed [blinding surge], or [thunderclap]. A good combo of [deep freeze] and [maelstrom] will make caster mobs cry.

If you want big AoE dommage it's better to follow fargaaz advice ^^ but then, I guess you arent playing necro but ele :P.

Ele bars with 7 nukes and a res are baed.

MegaVolti · Jan 20, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

1. If enemies run out of AoE spells and never come back as you imply, Fire >>> Earth because you can make enemies flee in terror and never come back. Of course enemies are going to come back. And if they come back, they are going to take AoE damage.
2. What's stopping you from using one AoE spell followed by another, such that the first AoE spell triggers the 'flee' mechanism but the enemies come back for the time when the second AoE spell ends?

Up to this point I actually thought you were being serious

Waste two AoE spells to get the damage of maybe (if you are lucky and the enemy runs back) one. Awesome

Guess we have that settled then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

THat is the only point i was trying to illustrate, not, the usage, not the utility. Just the simple fact that saying earth damage output is identical to fire is an ignorant statement.

I even said that in most situations, earth damage will be superior to fire damage due to the fact that stuff can't run out of the AoE if it's knocked down. And no, that's not an ignorant statement. That's just how the game works.

Jeydra · Jan 20, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Up to this point I actually thought you were being serious

Waste two AoE spells to get the damage of maybe (if you are lucky and the enemy runs back) one. Awesome

Guess we have that settled then.

Awesome, we've proven that Fire spells deal more damage than Earth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

I even said that in most situations, earth damage will be superior to fire damage due to the fact that stuff can't run out of the AoE if it's knocked down. And no, that's not an ignorant statement. That's just how the game works.

So Meteor, Fireball, Liquid Flame, Rodgort's Invocation, Lava Arrows, Incendiary Bonds, Immolate and Smouldering Embers are somehow not normal?

It's really brilliant how your so-called 'earth damage' are two spells Churning Earth and Unsteady Ground, while your so-called 'fire damage' are three spells, Searing Heat / Tenai's Heat / Breath of Fire. Way to go.

Improvavel · Jan 24, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

So Jeydra and Daze, you would recommend a fire build over an earth build for late game NM and HM (not counting exceptional cases where enemies are naturally weak or resistant to one of the elements)?

daze · Jan 25, 2009, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So Jeydra and Daze, you would recommend a fire build over an earth build for late game NM and HM (not counting exceptional cases where enemies are naturally weak or resistant to one of the elements)?

Really it depends on what you personally like to play.
As for me, the only thing i would run in HM with fire would be.
[fire [email protected]][glyph of [email protected]][meteor [email protected]][[email protected]][pain [email protected]][assassins [email protected]][you move like a [email protected]][finish [email protected]]

[fire [email protected]][glyph of sacrifice][meteor [email protected]][assassins [email protected]][deaths charge][bed of [email protected]][flame djinns [email protected]][finish [email protected]]

i dont play fire too often anymore. I am into earth now and this is what i run because the truth is earth is more effective than fire in HM. Im not saying that fire is not effective at all, but there are more viable options for efficiency.

[earth [email protected]][[email protected]][ebon battle standard of [email protected]][unsteady [email protected]][[email protected]][churning [email protected]][[email protected]][ash [email protected]]

Jeydra · Feb 02, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So Jeydra and Daze, you would recommend a fire build over an earth build for late game NM and HM (not counting exceptional cases where enemies are naturally weak or resistant to one of the elements)?

Whenever you need to deal damage (eg. playing with friends who're running bad builds, playing with heroes / henchmen) or whenever there are enough targets (eg. Dragon's Throat, Urgoz's Warren).

MasterSasori · Feb 02, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Whenever you need to deal damage (eg. playing with friends who're running bad builds, playing with heroes / henchmen) or whenever there are enough targets (eg. Dragon's Throat, Urgoz's Warren).

Or do yourself a favor and run decent heros - Discordway, Sabway, Racway and just go support. WTB Assassin's Promise.

Help your friends cap good elites or make better builds. Better for them in the long run

Jeydra · Feb 02, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

I was kinda under the impression that Discordway only works if you're carrying Assassin's Promise, not Unsteady Ground like an Earth Elementalist would, you know what I mean?