Curse

Jakerz · Jan 26, 2009, 08:30 AM // 08:30

I find water builds rare and actually quite fun to use, so I made one for PvP. Keep in mind this is one of my first builds I've ever made, so it probably won't be too good.
Skills:
Water Trident (E)
Glowing Ice
Blurred Vision
Ice Prison
Ice Spikes
Deep Freeze
Armor of Mist
Water Attunement
I've tested it in PvP (and I would enjoy some suggestions for PvP) but the main reason I posted here is to ask if this build would be good in PvE? Should I swap out a skill for Slippery Ground? Should I keep Glowing Ice? (it is decent energy gain if i use it with Water Attunement)

Also, how do you get it so it shows your build with the skill icons and the pop up that appears when you hover over the skill?

daze · Jan 26, 2009, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakerz

I find water builds rare and actually quite fun to use, so I made one for PvP. Keep in mind this is one of my first builds I've ever made, so it probably won't be too good.
Skills:
[Water Trident] (E)
[Glowing Ice]
[Blurred Vision]
[Ice Prison]
[Ice Spikes]
[Deep Freeze]
[Armor of Mist]
[Water Attunement]
I've tested it in PvP (and I would enjoy some suggestions for PvP) but the main reason I posted here is to ask if this build would be good in PvE? Should I swap out a skill for Slippery Ground? Should I keep Glowing Ice? (it is decent energy gain if i use it with Water Attunement)

Also, how do you get it so it shows your build with the skill icons and the pop up that appears when you hover over the skill?

like that..

[skillname][skillname][skillname]

that build will work in pve.
personally when i pve i like to focus on snare shutdown.
[Deep Freeze][maelstrom][blurred vision][glowing ice]

Cebe · Jan 26, 2009, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakerz

I find water builds rare and actually quite fun to use, so I made one for PvP. Keep in mind this is one of my first builds I've ever made, so it probably won't be too good.
Skills:
Water Trident (E)
Glowing Ice
Blurred Vision
Ice Prison
Ice Spikes
Deep Freeze
Armor of Mist
Water Attunement
I've tested it in PvP (and I would enjoy some suggestions for PvP) but the main reason I posted here is to ask if this build would be good in PvE?

Please let it be noted that wherever I refer to PvP in this post, I'm referring to Alliance Battles, because it's just about all I play.

I would suspect it would be better in PvE than PvP. I wouldn't feel comfortable using expensive skills like Deep Freeze and Ice Spikes without [[Glyph of Lesser Energy] though. Water Trident and Armor of Mist are both pretty decent skills for Alliance Battles, if that's where you play PvP, I'm not sure about other forms of PvP. Water Trident is good in PvE as water magic goes because it's spammable, and it provides knockdown. You can snare and knockdown warriors chasing your monk with it. For PvE I'd swap out Armor of Mist for something more useful. Ice Prison is a bit niche - probably more useful in PvP since in PvE the main thing that matters is how much damage you can do AoE...and Ice Prison is a bit of a waste here.

For sake of comparison, my AB Water Build consists of the following:

[build prof=E name="AB Water Snare" box water=12+1+1 air=9+1 energy=9+1][Water Attunement][Armor of Mist][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Chilling Winds][Icy Shackles][Blurred Vision][Deep Freeze][No Skill][/build]

(Substitute the blank skill for something useful)

Air Magic and Water Magic mix well together in PvP. On the Air Side you have Blinding Flash, Chilling Winds and Arc Lightning, which all work well with Water Magic skills (although I do think Arc Lightning is a bit weak), and it doesn't really hurt you to move points out of Energy Storage to put into Air. I love using Chilling Winds + Icy Shackles on Dervishes, Assassins and Mending Wammos in AB because it's 90% speed reduction for ~16 seconds, and assuming they have no Monk (which is the case fairly often), it works a treat to stop them chasing your team members. Chilling Winds also acts as a great cover hex.

As for PvE, Water Trident will be just fine in most areas, though given the inherent defensive qualities of Water Magic, in areas of high Fire Magic is might be worth considering [[Ward Against Harm].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakerz

Should I swap out a skill for Slippery Ground? Should I keep Glowing Ice? (it is decent energy gain if i use it with Water Attunement)

If you have no blind then slippery ground is rather useless. Personally, if using Deep Freeze & Ice Spikes, I'd be wanting to take [[Glyph of Lesser Energy] as energy management also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakerz

Also, how do you get it so it shows your build with the skill icons and the pop up that appears when you hover over the skill?

Use the BBCode given here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10277633

Finally, just to add this: It's worth just stating that Water Magic in PvE is rather weak. Other than Ward Against Harm in harsh Charr Areas I've never seen much use for a sole-Water Magic build. Water Magic skills can be used to enhance others (such as [[Deep Freeze] + [[Savannah Heat]), but on it's own don't expect to get a great damage output from it.

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Jan 26, 2009, 03:41 PM // 15:41

While a lot of people actually think that the primary focus of a Water Elementalist in PvP is to snare things, this is not the case. In fact having to many snares on your bar, like the OP has, is counter-productive. This is because you only really need 1 snare on 1 target at a time as stacking them really has no added benefits and it's not practical to try and keep multiple (more than 3) targets snared at a time.

Generally then what people do is add in blinds and Blurred Vision, this allows you to effectively shut down frontline characters without having to stack snares on them and leads to an overall increase in the effectiveness of the build.

The reason I wouldn't run Water Trident is because if you want to be able to keep your build versatile without overloading it with multiple weaker snares then you have to run an elite snare and without a doubt the best one is [Icy Shackles] so here's what I would run:

[Icy Shackles][Glowing Ice][Glyph Of Immolation][Steam][Blurred Vision][Shard Storm][Water Attunement][Resurrection Signet]

This allows you to have a few powerful snares without overloading your bar and also allows you to shut down targets with blind. It also outputs a decent amount of damage with Shard Storm, Glyph of Immo, Steam and Glowing Ice while maintaining excellent energy management. I didn't put Armor Of Mist in because it's only really helpful if you're running a split heavy build in GvG or in AB.

You should also always carry a res sig unless you're playing AB in which case you can swap:

[Resurrection Signet] --> [Armor Of Mist]

iVendetta · Jan 26, 2009, 03:58 PM // 15:58

I never really understood water magic. Is its main use to snare?

bungusmaximus · Jan 26, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Snare, yes, an annoy the pants off your opponents with [blurred vision], another very gay combo is [glyph of immolation] and [steam].

Water is about movement control and lots of utility, the overall damage is rather piddy.

Cebe · Jan 26, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by iVendetta

I never really understood water magic. Is its main use to snare?

This explains the snare thing pretty well:

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie the reaper

While a lot of people actually think that the primary focus of a Water Elementalist in PvP is to snare things, this is not the case. In fact having to many snares on your bar, like the OP has, is counter-productive.

Yes, it snares well, but Water Magic also has some subtle shutdown abilities also (Blurred Vision, Blind, Slippery Ground, Maelstrom).

In eddie's build, the Glyph of Immolation + Steam combo is quite a popular one, and one I forgot/overlooked.

Winterclaw · Jan 26, 2009, 07:23 PM // 19:23

For PvP [frozen burst] > [ice spikes]

Jakerz, do you have all the games? If not it will effect what builds we can suggest.

iVen, it is possible to do a little bit of damage with water magic if you have factions. [shatterstone][vapor blade]

Jakerz · Jan 26, 2009, 09:33 PM // 21:33

No, unfortunately I only have Prophecies, but I might be getting factions later today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddy the reaper

While a lot of people actually think that the primary focus of a Water Elementalist in PvP is to snare things, this is not the case. In fact having to many snares on your bar, like the OP has, is counter-productive.

I made it specifically to snare in PvP as I typically then get my friend to spam a large number of adjacent AoE spells while I sit and spam Trident and other snares.

Also, Winterclaw, thanks for the Frozen Burst suggestion, it's much better.

Deathlok · Jan 26, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

I've been having some pretty good times in RA with this water/fire combo.

[shatterstone][ice spikes][steam][slippery ground][elemental flame][water attunement][aura of restoration]

with the last spot used for a rez.

Works great for a spike as well as blind and knockdown (though the blind a KD have to go through a chain to work)

flame -> shatterstone -> spikes -> steam -> slippery ground.

Not the best build in the world, but is fun an rather spammable.

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Jan 26, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakerz

I made it specifically to snare in PvP as I typically then get my friend to spam a large number of adjacent AoE spells while I sit and spam Trident and other snares.

Uhh what? Why would you comment back saying you made it to be a pure snare build after quoting me explaining why pure snare builds are not very effective?

Spamming snares over and over has to be the least effective way ever of trying to achieve the goal of a snare. AoE snares are only good in HA where you can snare multiple targets which are balled up and then co-ordinate heavy AoE fire damage on the same targets.

Similar logic applies to spamming snares, snaring targets which are A) Not in AoE, B) Not being trained by a Warrior or C) Not a frontline character, is completely pointless it achieves nothing.

That is why when playing a Water Ele it is better to have a fewer but more powerful snares such as [Freezing Gust][Shard Storm][Icy Shackles] this way you can effectively shut down the 2 or 3 targets that actually NEED to be snared and also use skills such as [Glyph Of Immolation][Steam] and [Blurred Vision] to achieve other frontline shutdown. As I said earlier, stacking snares IS NOT effective.

Jakerz · Jan 26, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Maybe you didn't read my post very well, I only have Prophecies and EotN. So how could I use your useful suggestions when I can't even use the skills? Also, if you would look at my build, it currently has 3 snare skills on it, and you suggested I put 3 snares on. So you're statement is rather meaningless.

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Jan 26, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

No I didn't say, "You should use these 3 skills in the 1 bar" I said "it is better to use fewer more powerful snares such as (3 good ele snares)" I never said that you should put all 3 on the bar, they were merely suggestion as to a few that you could put in a bar.

Also just because you only have prophecies and Eotn doesn't mean that packing as many snares as you can onto 1 bar suddenly becomes effective. You may not be able to use the exact bar that I posted but use your initiative, apply the principles that I outlined in my post to skills that you do have available. If I counted correctly as well your bar has 4 [Water Trident][Deep freeze][Ice Spikes][Ice Prison]

In some, very rare cases it may be appropriate to take 3 snares, HA mainly but that would be that absolute maximum. 95% of the time the most productive amount is 2. While I would say in your bar, yes 3 is to much, there is also another problem and that;s the 3 snares that you did take. 2 are AoE which as I explained, are only good with co-ordination in HA and the other 1 is removed with fire damage which is extremely bad if you're playing in RA/AB, which I think you are and Water Trident can only snare moving targets and for a very short period of time.

I don't know which skills are Prophecies/EoTN only as i've had all the games for so long but yeah, use your initiative...

MegaVolti · Jan 27, 2009, 01:41 AM // 01:41

I use this one, mostly for AB:

[Mirror of Ice][Water Attunement][Shard Storm][Freezing Gust][Glowing Ice][Ice Spikes][Deep Freeze][Maelstrom]

[[Mirror of Ice] adds some nice damage. I prefer it over [[Shatterstone] so I can cast the other hexes more often. The snares can be cast all the time and also give good damage. They are hexes so there is an obvious synergy with [[Mirror of Ice]. Interrupt with [[Maelstrom] is available when needed and [[Glowing Ice] is for energy management. If you don't like it or have energy problems, replacing it with [[glyph of lesser energy] is of cause possible.

With the AoE damage it is possible to clear shrines quite fast and the snares are just so much fun on melees

edit: The description for [[mirror of ice] here is wrong. It adds 37 armor ignoring damage to any water magic hex, meaning that all the spells deal way over 100 damage each cast.

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Jan 27, 2009, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

I use this one, mostly for AB:

[Mirror of Ice][Water Attunement][Shard Storm][Freezing Gust][Glowing Ice][Ice Spikes][Deep Freeze][Maelstrom]

[[Mirror of Ice] adds some nice damage. I prefer it over [[Shatterstone] so I can cast the other hexes more often. The snares can be cast all the time and also give good damage. They are hexes so there is an obvious synergy with [[Mirror of Ice]. Interrupt with [[Maelstrom] is available when needed and [[Glowing Ice] is for energy management. If you don't like it or have energy problems, replacing it with [[glyph of lesser energy] is of cause possible.

With the AoE damage it is possible to clear shrines quite fast and the snares are just so much fun on melees

edit: The description for [[mirror of ice] here is wrong. It adds 37 armor ignoring damage to any water magic hex, meaning that all the spells deal way over 100 damage each cast.

Maelstrom is only really good for shrine clearing in AB as the NPCs do not move out of it or possibly in Altar Holding in HA, generally only in places where people are confined to a small area/shrine to complete an objective. Using it anywhere else is really ineffective as players simply move out of it and it has a very small area of effect as well as being incredible expensive and prone to interupts.

For AB though the rest of the build seems ok, not so sure about having 2 AoE Snares maybe drop [Deep Freeze] for glyph and anywhere else the build becomes incredibly ineffective.

Jakerz · Jan 28, 2009, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie the reaper

No I didn't say, "You should use these 3 skills in the 1 bar" I said "it is better to use fewer more powerful snares such as (3 good ele snares)" I never said that you should put all 3 on the bar, they were merely suggestion as to a few that you could put in a bar.

Also just because you only have prophecies and Eotn doesn't mean that packing as many snares as you can onto 1 bar suddenly becomes effective. You may not be able to use the exact bar that I posted but use your initiative, apply the principles that I outlined in my post to skills that you do have available. If I counted correctly as well your bar has 4 [Water Trident][Deep freeze][Ice Spikes][Ice Prison]

In some, very rare cases it may be appropriate to take 3 snares, HA mainly but that would be that absolute maximum. 95% of the time the most productive amount is 2. While I would say in your bar, yes 3 is to much, there is also another problem and that;s the 3 snares that you did take. 2 are AoE which as I explained, are only good with co-ordination in HA and the other 1 is removed with fire damage which is extremely bad if you're playing in RA/AB, which I think you are and Water Trident can only snare moving targets and for a very short period of time.

I don't know which skills are Prophecies/EoTN only as i've had all the games for so long but yeah, use your initiative...

Oh and the skill that gets removed by fire magic is wrong, it only gets removed if I use fire magic. It's a typo in the skill.

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Jan 28, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakerz

Oh and the skill that gets removed by fire magic is wrong, it only gets removed if I use fire magic. It's a typo in the skill.

Uhh no it's not? It gets removed when the target takes any fire damage, regardless of where it came from.

Voodoo Rage · Jan 28, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

[build=OgVDMzyMTrlQDkCqDLBXDQi4iA]

This works well against Destroyers and areas where you want caster shutdown. It also works great against stationary targets like Ether Seals and Destroyer of Lives. I used this build on Hell's Precipice mainly to shut down the Sparks. Mindbender is really an elementalist's friend, allowing you to crank off spells quickly. The main problem with this build is enchantment removal which really kills you (maybe a cover enchantment might help). If you can keep your dual attunements up and run a 40/40 set, you can pretty much spam Maelstrom. Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom really helps with recharges (especially if you got your enchantments stripped off). I also run a variant of this build where I want to just blow things up:

[build=OgVCoMz0aJuApwSQvwYVTjcJ]

Hugh Manatee · Jan 31, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

I will swear by this water build, once in FA the enemy mesmers started trying to build to counter it and I still rolled them:

[mirror of ice][water attunement][maelstrom][rust][freezing gust][glowing ice][armor of mist] and then if I'm in Fort Aspenwood [Gaze of Contempt] or [Rend Enchantments] or if JQ or AB [ice Spikes][Deep Freeze] or [Shard storm], if RA res sig or maybe a hard res. Sometimes I take gust or mist out for an aoe hex.

Bomb the vital points with maelstrom > rend/gaze if you need to or have it then rust>AoE hex if you have one>freeze>glow> repeat till you punch down the gates or points. In AB run ahead of your team to scout target cap points, hammer them and let the other 3 cap the point behind, you you can take any cap point down solo if you have to(though I have a little trouble with the warrior point). Use the snares and mist to run from confrontations. If you keep the tune up and glow on recharge you should have more then enough juice.

Zodiac Meteor · Feb 01, 2009, 08:02 AM // 08:02

[[icy [email protected]] is helpful not only snaring but giving your monk a break. Those PS sins will be all over your monk. The down side is the enchanted part. It you manage to get enemy monk to cast [[[email protected]] on the PS then gg.
A cover hex can also be deadly, every monk out there will have [[cure [email protected]] on them. [[water [email protected]] has damage and the conditional knockdown. The problem is the conditional knockdown, if it didn't work might as well use [[ice [email protected]]. [[mirror of [email protected]] is good to. The elementalist ice attribute is well taken care of, just not blasting with power.