Curse

daze · Feb 02, 2009, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Well here we go again. MegaVolti attempting to throw the thread off track with the hundredth "Eles deal no damage" arguments. The fact of the matter is that they do deal good damage in Normal Mode and mediocre damage in Hard Mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

But in HM PvE play Mesmers will do a lot more damage then any Elementalist could ever hope to get.

Im really getting tired of hearing [[cry of pain] this and [[cry of pain] that. Mesmers have ONE count em ONE skill dedicated to pure damage and now everybody is on the Mesmers > Ele train. for the record [[cry of pain] can be used by my ele just as well as it can for a mez. But i dont even want to get on another tangent about that. So whatever.

The ele's purpose is to produce a wide range of yellow numbers while shutting down/inhibiting your enemies movements and adding utility. Plus due to their high energy pool, they are able to take on the task of other casters ([[ether renewal] [[aegis], Or [[echo] [[cry of pain]) With a pool of 90+ energy there is a lot of versatility to work with.

But as for damage dealing, fire builds will do just fine in Normal Mode. When you get to Hard Mode however, you might want to start focusing more on Earth or something.

This is a crude example so forgive me if the numbers arent as accurate as you may think. But here is what i think

Fire magic 90% damage 10% utility (because enemies that are scattering arent attacking)
Earth magic 60% damage 40% utility (KD, Blind, Weakness, Wards)
Water magic 40% Damage 60% Utility (Lots of snares, and blurred vision)
Air Magic 20% Damage and 80% Utility (Blind, Crack armor, Daze, KD, And not any good AoE damage)

So when it comes to Hard Mode, Utility becomes more important for an ele because Enemies simply have higher armor against Elemental damage.

Winterclaw · Feb 02, 2009, 05:24 AM // 05:24

I don't think that els are bad DDs, they just aren't as good as warriors IMO. But at least they have more options in PvE than mesmers.

daze · Feb 02, 2009, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I don't think that els are bad DDs, they just aren't as good as warriors IMO. But at least they have more options in PvE than mesmers.

I see lots of people compare Eles Damage to warriors, but i would think that you are comparing apples to oranges. Simply because warrior damage is single target most of the time and Ele damage is widespread most of the time.

Warrios dont keep whole groups of enemies on the move, eles do.

Wariors are preferred for their high armor and single target dps.

Eles are preferred for their AoE damage and Utility/

Lourens · Feb 02, 2009, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Im sure none have mentioned this but a warder is really fun

Cebe · Feb 02, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

I see lots of people compare Eles Damage to warriors, but i would think that you are comparing apples to oranges. Simply because warrior damage is single target most of the time and Ele damage is widespread most of the time.

Warrios dont keep whole groups of enemies on the move, eles do.

Wariors are preferred for their high armor and single target dps.

Eles are preferred for their AoE damage and Utility/

I think Warriors can deal reasonable AoE damage, especially with a weapon like a Hammer. High base damage, Crude Swing, Whirlwind Attack and Earthshaker, with Splinter Weapon perhaps, and a Warrior's AoE damage is quite fearsome. I'm not suggesting it's more than an Elementalist (I've never cared to test it), I'm just pointing out a Warrior's ability to deal damage on an AoE basis.

That being said, all classes get compared to each other, and in most cases it's not entirely fair. Each profession is about something different. I wonder if classes will ever be played again purely because someone just likes that class, and not because it deals the most DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

Im sure none have mentioned this but a warder is really fun

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

Jeydra · Feb 02, 2009, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Have you ever heard of [[cry of pain]? Cryway? No, Mesmers are no damage dealers! Obviously not!
This is PvE of cause. PvP is different, interrupts to matter there and it doesn't have CoP. But in HM PvE play Mesmers will do a lot more damage then any Elementalist could ever hope to get.

*cough* Secondary Profession *cough*

@Topic -

If you're going to run Searing Flames, skills you definitely want are Liquid Flame, Glowing Gaze, Searing Flames, Fire Attunement and Glyph of Lesser Energy. That leaves you with three slots. If you like Arcane Echo'ed Searing Flames, then you can try Arcane Mimicry for another one of the slots, aiming at Elemental Attunement (put on another Elementalist), leaving one more slot for whatever. The downtime is fairly long with this, be warned. Otherwise you can always go for a PvE skill, or Meteor, or a 9-spec Aegis / Ward Against Melee / etc.

The Savannah Heat build you posted is fairly OK, although it would be better to bring GoLE as well (for use with Rodgort's Invocation). I don't like Smouldering Embers; use Liquid Flame instead. And Aura of Restoration is of course a self-heal you probably won't need in PvE - substitute for a PvE skill, a 9-spec Aegis / Ward, Res, etc.

The Elemental Attunement build you posted needs some work, since you have essentially infinite energy with dual Attunements you might as well load up with the highest-energy skills you can get. Rodgort's Invocation is an obvious choice; otherwise you can put in Mark of Rodgort, PvE skills, Liquid Flame, Incendiary Bonds, etc.

Lourens · Feb 02, 2009, 11:45 AM // 11:45

How about [dark prison][glyph of sacrifice][earthquake][aftershock][shockwave]

MegaVolti · Feb 02, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Well here we go again. MegaVolti attempting to throw the thread off track with the hundredth "Eles deal no damage" arguments. The fact of the matter is that they do deal good damage in Normal Mode and mediocre damage in Hard Mode.

Throwing it off track? The whole topic is about rating his builds. And I told him the truth - that they are bad and that there are far more successful ones.
As you said yourself, Ele damage in HM is medicore (at best). Mesmer damage however is excellent. A secondary Mesmer can not use AP-CoP (which makes CoP damge good). Also, skills like [[wandering eye] or [[clumsiness] are totally awesome in PvE for damage - and far better used on a primary Mesmer. Elementalists simply have nothing that can compare to this.
Not to mention Necromancers, who can totally own anything damage-wise with [[spiteful spirit] or [[mark of pain].

If you try to play your Elementalist as a damage dealer you will generally be a lot worse then a Mesmer or Necromancer. Period.

Support builds however are awesome. Knockdown and blindness totally rock and the Elementalist can apply these while dealing medicore damage. Earth magic is the way to go in PvE (if you want to be effective and a help to your party).

Jeydra · Feb 02, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Throwing it off track? The whole topic is about rating his builds. And I told him the truth - that they are bad and that there are far more successful ones.
As you said yourself, Ele damage in HM is medicore (at best). Mesmer damage however is excellent. A secondary Mesmer can not use AP-CoP (which makes CoP damge good). Also, skills like Wandering Eye or Clumsiness are totally awesome in PvE for damage - and far better used on a primary Mesmer. Elementalists simply have nothing that can compare to this.
Not to mention Necromancers, who can totally own anything damage-wise with Spiteful Spirit or Mark of Pain.

You seriously telling me that Cryway works best with Mesmer primaries only and nothing else compares? That just might give me motivation to come up with Cry of Pain builds that don't rely on AP, yet work just as well ... hm ... maybe Air of Superiority, Glyph of Renewal, Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom?

Improvavel · Feb 03, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Playing an ele without abusing the big energy pool/energy management tools to cast support skills is the same as not using protection skills when using a monk.

Instead of comparing an ele with a mesmer or a necro, why don't you guys compare an ele with utility and damage with an ele with only damage?

I would say that a party that has 3 eles with damage and utility is much better than a party with 3 straight damage ele builds.

Coney · Feb 03, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugman103192

No PvE skills! GASP. lol

Hmm, I got trilogy and thus no eotn skills either.

However, I looked at the [Searing Flames] build this guy uses, and stopped reading after that. He's wasting arguably 5-6 skill slots with that build [Rodgort's Invocation][Fireball][Immolate][Searing Heat][Arcane Echo][Aura of Restoration] and lack of E Mgmt [Glyph of Lesser Energy][Glowing Gaze].

I roll PvE with this, mostly NM so far:
[build=OgBDo8OMP0txKOrsiMUHADcB]

I got GW 3 years ago, but only played about a week before quitting (couldn't figure out missions, got stuck in never-ending CHAR-land). Only started playing again about 6 months ago (hard to believe that build and that guy playing 3 years)...

daze · Feb 03, 2009, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You seriously telling me that Cryway works best with Mesmer primaries only and nothing else compares? That just might give me motivation to come up with Cry of Pain builds that don't rely on AP, yet work just as well ... hm ... maybe Air of Superiority, Glyph of Renewal, Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom?

You should have known that would have been his only argument. When [assassins promise][cry of pain] is not much more effective than an ele with [echo][cry of pain]
[wandering eye] and [clumsiness] can be used by an ele as well. the only downside is the lack of fast casting. Id agree more with him saying that necros are able to deal more damage, but mez is a little silly simply because there is only one skill in the whole repertoire of a mesmer that can deal pure damage.

Hyprodimus Prime · Feb 03, 2009, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I agree with what most people have said (that was on topic). No offense, plese dont take any, but those fire builds are pretty bad. Why? They are redundant. An elite needs to be the focus off your build. You only get one, make the best use of it.

1) a. You have Searing Flames. Good, now you need burning and energy. You have arcane echo (15 energy), Searing Heat (15), Rodgort's (25), Immolate (10) and Fireball another 10. There is no way you can have enough energy to cycle 2x SF with only attune. You should add Glyph of lesser energy and Glowing Gaze. Glyph alone give you 2.5 free SF casts.

b. Where are you to put these other skills? Well, you are focusing on Searing Flames which has a recharge of 2. Basically, its a spam skill. Why would you ever cast Fireball/Rodgorts/Searing Heat? They are each 2 second cast. Thats a SF right there. Immolate is almost never used because eles dont go Fire to deal damage to one enemy. If you want damage and burning, you go SF OR Rodgort's. Take out these redundant damage skills and add in your energy skills.

c. Particularity in the SF build, burning is essential. Having Mark of Rodgort gets burning on before you use SF and perpetually keeps burning up. This skill will keep you from wasting a SF cast just to burn, it also fuels Glowing gaze which you should be casting in between SF. (btw, burning is 7 degen or 14 health per second)

d. When should you use SF? Well it is Best in a group, like 2 or more Fire Eles and or regular attackers using fire weapons/conjures.

e. The best skill to start off Mark or Rodgort with, is Liquid Flame. Cast order should be Mark of Rodgort->Liquid Flame->SF->Glow->SF etc

2) a. So your focus is Higher "spike" AoE damage via Savannah Heat. Bring both minor Heats (Searing, Teinai's). Why Smoldering Embers and Immolate? They only target 1. You need Glyph of lesser energy again. Not Glowing gaze because its not that energy intensive. This time, Mark or Rodgort should not be here. Its an AoE spike as already said, plus you have both Heats and Rodgort's Invocation for burning.

3) a. Your elite now grants you a lot of energy. Use big spells like Rodgort's Invocation and Deep Freeze. You can Blind support, and a lot of stuff. What is the point of the build you have there? Again single enemy damage is a fire-faux-pas.

b. The truth is, Dual Attunement is rarely used. Mind Blast just works so much better. Number one it does damage. Number two, it cant be removed. Three, its good for ANY skills, like monk support skills, PvE skills, Rit support etc. If you go Mind Blast, the point is to use Rodgort's, minor Heats and support.

4) a. Final notes/suggestions. Why do you have Aura of Restoration? The healing from it is bad. The healing from it can be useless if you are already full. It uses up more energy. It uses up another slot. If say, you have a monk support skill, like Aegis or maybe you have Heal Party, thats a lot of energy you can save for the monks. In turn any little healing you would have gotten from Aura of Restoration can be healed by the monk for a 5 energy skill. Aura may be used a cover enchant, but that is a rare case, just know if you need it in the area or not.

b. Why dont you have a Res Sig? Monks fail, mobs get too large, people die. Res Sig can save a lot of time by ressing them now rather than everyone at the shrine. You may have to run a long while to get back to where you were.

Hope these help. You may want to look at PvX wiki if you havent already done so. http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page

Lourens · Feb 03, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

I agree with what most people have said (that was on topic). No offense, plese dont take any, but those fire builds are pretty bad. Why? They are redundant. An elite needs to be the focus off your build. You only get one, make the best use of it.

1) a. You have Searing Flames. Good, now you need burning and energy. You have arcane echo (15 energy), Searing Heat (15), Rodgort's (25), Immolate (10) and Fireball another 10. There is no way you can have enough energy to cycle 2x SF with only attune. You should add Glyph of lesser energy and Glowing Gaze. Glyph alone give you 2.5 free SF casts.

b. Where are you to put these other skills? Well, you are focusing on Searing Flames which has a recharge of 2. Basically, its a spam skill. Why would you ever cast Fireball/Rodgorts/Searing Heat? They are each 2 second cast. Thats a SF right there. Immolate is almost never used because eles dont go Fire to deal damage to one enemy. If you want damage and burning, you go SF OR Rodgort's. Take out these redundant damage skills and add in your energy skills.

c. Particularity in the SF build, burning is essential. Having Mark of Rodgort gets burning on before you use SF and perpetually keeps burning up. This skill will keep you from wasting a SF cast just to burn, it also fuels Glowing gaze which you should be casting in between SF. (btw, burning is 7 degen or 14 health per second)

d. When should you use SF? Well it is Best in a group, like 2 or more Fire Eles and or regular attackers using fire weapons/conjures.

e. The best skill to start off Mark or Rodgort with, is Liquid Flame. Cast order should be Mark of Rodgort->Liquid Flame->SF->Glow->SF etc

2) a. So your focus is Higher "spike" AoE damage via Savannah Heat. Bring both minor Heats (Searing, Teinai's). Why Smoldering Embers and Immolate? They only target 1. You need Glyph of lesser energy again. Not Glowin gaze because its not that energy intensive. Mark this time should net be here. Its an AoE spike as already said, plus you have both Heats and Rodgort's Invocation for burning.

3) a. Your elite now grants you a lot of energy. Use big spells like Rodgort's Invocation and Deep Freeze. You can Blind support, and a lot of stuff. What is the point of the build you have there? Again single enemy damage is a fire-faux-pas.

b. The truth is, Dual Attunement is rarely used. Mind Blast just works so much better. Number one it does damage. Number two, it cant be removed. Three, its good for ANY skills, like monk support skills, PvE skills, Rit support etc. If you go Mind Blast, the point is to use Rodgort's, minor Heats and support.

4) a. Final notes/suggestions. Why do you have Aura of Restoration? The healing from it is bad. The healing from it can be useless if you are already full. It uses up more energy. It uses up another slot. If say, you have a monk support skill, like Aegis or maybe you have Heal Party, thats a lot of energy you can save for the monks. In turn any little healing you would have gotten from Aura of Restoration can be healed by the monk for a 5 energy skill. Aura may be used a cover enchant, but that is a rare case, just know if you need it in the area or not.

b. Why dont you have a Res Sig? Monks fail, mobs get too large, people die. Res Sig can save a lot of time by ressing them now rather than everyone at the shrine. You may have to run a long while to get back to where you were.

Hope these help. You may want to look at PvX wiki if you havent already done so. http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page

You dont need a ressurection signet if you dont die , and you can always carry a scroll of ressurection if things get worse aka hardmode

Hyprodimus Prime · Feb 04, 2009, 03:38 AM // 03:38

You're right. If you have an organized group, you wont need it. But in any PUG, do take it.

Lourens · Feb 04, 2009, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

You're right. If you have an organized group, you wont need it. But in any PUG, do take it.

Yes most pugs are bad at keeping the team alive,

Anyway back on topic i really adore [Mirror of Ice]x[Deep freeze]

MegaVolti · Feb 04, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

You should have known that would have been his only argument. When [assassins promise][cry of pain] is not much more effective than an ele with [echo][cry of pain]
[wandering eye] and [clumsiness] can be used by an ele as well. the only downside is the lack of fast casting. Id agree more with him saying that necros are able to deal more damage, but mez is a little silly simply because there is only one skill in the whole repertoire of a mesmer that can deal pure damage.

For both [wandering eye] and [clumsiness] the damage difference between attribute lvl 12 and 16 is significant. So is fast casting since they are 2s spells.

The AP build uses [assassins promise][arcane echo][cry of pain][finish him]. Without AP and only normal echo you will never ever get nearly as much damage.

Jeydra · Apr 28, 2009, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

The AP build uses [assassins promise][arcane echo][cry of pain][finish him]. Without AP and only normal echo you will never ever get nearly as much damage.

I've got Echo, Arcane Echo, Cry of Pain, By Ural's Hammer, Air of Superiority, am standing in an Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom and have a friendly Necro with Blood Is Power. How do you do more damage than me?

_Nihilist_ · Apr 29, 2009, 03:25 AM // 03:25

^
[Assassin's Promise] recharges his skills when the hexed foe dies. That's how, in theory.

You'd both have to show damage calculations for proof in practice if you wanted to go beyond theorycrafting.

draxynnic · Apr 29, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

You should have known that would have been his only argument. When [assassins promise][cry of pain] is not much more effective than an ele with [echo][cry of pain]
[wandering eye] and [clumsiness] can be used by an ele as well. the only downside is the lack of fast casting. Id agree more with him saying that necros are able to deal more damage, but mez is a little silly simply because there is only one skill in the whole repertoire of a mesmer that can deal pure damage.

I'm curious as to how you define 'pure damage'. When I throw an Energy Surge or a Clumsiness or a Wandering Eye or, yes, even a Cry of Pain, I know what it is I'm really after - the 90-odd armour-ignoring damage. Everything else is an added bonus. Yes, I know these skills have conditions, but in PvE, they're fairly easy to meet.

The disruption from, say, Clumsiness is nice, but if stopping weapon attacks was what I wanted, I'd blind it or fling five Lightning Javelins at it. Which is where the elementalist comes in.

Perhaps, though, we could lose some of the semantics by saying that Mesmer skills are better at dealing damage in HM than Elementalist? After all, the Elementalist running two Echoes and three PvE skills isn't exactly making much use of skills from their own profession, and probably isn't doing anything a Mesmer with a similar build can't.